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Old 07-24-2008, 05:36 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post

Why would they also say he was Tuscarora as if that's the reason why they committed those crimes? C'mon man...think hard about this one..... I know you can put two and two together.
Also........the two ministers made their Tuscarora statements in regards to HB's brother and father......not him! You are applying what you "PERCIEVED" from Townsend and Normant to something that was written before both of them............"YOU CAN"T DO THAT!"


This type of logic is completely irrational.................but not un-common when people are trying to twist history to suite their own personal bias and agendas instead of just reading it for what it is!
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Old 07-24-2008, 09:56 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by lumbeedancer View Post
I've never seen it written before that James Lowrie and wife Silly sold land............and I'm sorry but until i see it specifically saying "and wife".........I'm not going to change my mind........My gut tells me that the "and wife" part was more than likely an "assumption" on somebody's part and not what the actual document says!

If I'm wrong then hey.....I'll admit it...........but I've got to see this thing to make sure that certain folks are not "MISREADING/MIS QUOTING" what was "ACTUALLY" written. And I've got good reason to have these concerns...........like I said before.......Paul Heinegg cited many things about Celia and James trying to connect them together as husband and wife........but he was un-able to provide anything specifically calling Celia James' wife.

So I would like the book number, page number, location, etc.....that this "AND WIFE" was written........I will eventually check it before it's all said and done! The Robeson County Courthouse is only about 5 miles from where I live!

Well like I said I cna't give that to you since I'm not the one who personally did the research.
However, if it was an assumption on someone's part.. then why was James there with some woman other than his wife?

Quote:
Maybe your right............but of the top of my head I still have 2 points to make.

1.) It doesn't prove that Townsend was wrong!
2.) What frivilouse stuff it does look like she copied is irrelevant in regards to the Tuscarora information.

Please re-read what both of them wrote in regards to the Lowries Tuscarora origins................these sections were nothing alike.........but did coincide pretty well when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it!
I was'nt saying it proved Townsend wrong.. where'd you get that? All I was trying to show you was why I did'nt find Normant credible... Townsend was'nt in question, you just added that in. And regardless of her tuscarora information; you can't trust a dog you've caught stealing food to guard your steak is my point.
And as I said, these were just a few instances in the book... there were alot more. And if theier sections on the Lowries origins were different, then how does that make her credible again?

Quote:
James Lowrie was upper class in comparison to most people (whites included)! He owned much land and quite a few slaves as a matter of fact! Hell your researcher just said that that James sold 300 acres to John Gilchrist in 1790!

Did or did not Normant write (when she named off the witnesses that could vouch for James' tuscarora claims) that

"and last, though not least, by the late John Gilchrist, Esq., long a practicing lawyer at the Lumberton Bar, whose father bought out James Lowrie in 1791, at the close of the Revolutionary War."

You guys just proved farther that she did a lot more research than you think and that her witnesses did have reason to know what they were talking about! So come on now?
uh... compared to what she copied from Townsend, this would be very little research on her part ....

Quote:
You know........I can understand you wanting to believe they just made the Tuscarora claim up.............I really can understand that.

But I'm sorry..........as much as you may wish it to be so...........there really is no proof of that!
I'm not sure where I ever said they made the claim up... this all started with you wanting to know about Sally Kearsey and my reasons for not trusting Mary Normant and both were answered. And that even this story does'nt give more than "good" evidence as opposed to "overwhelming". Especially when there seems to be motive behind why some would have said they were Tuscarora.
Quote:
You claimed that Townsend and Gorman did it to add intirest for their readers. But the problem is (and you can't keep ignoring this.......as much as you may like to) that the two ministers wrote a letter to the freedmens bureau that was not intended for the public eye...........your "THEORY" falls to pieces here.......point blank!
The ministers would have an interest in the two relatives that rode with the gang... what if they used that information to try to save the lives or reputations of their relatives? It's just a thought to throw out there....
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Old 07-24-2008, 10:01 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by lumbeedancer View Post
Also........the two ministers made their Tuscarora statements in regards to HB's brother and father......not him! You are applying what you "PERCIEVED" from Townsend and Normant to something that was written before both of them............"YOU CAN"T DO THAT!"

UH can we say DUH?? Come ON!! if they said it about the father and brother does that SOMEHOW exclude the rest of the children????????? Or somehow some are good because of their tuscarora blood and in the others it makes them murderous thieves????
Quote:
This type of logic is completely irrational.................but not un-common when people are trying to twist history to suite their own personal bias and agendas instead of just reading it for what it is!
you're doing exactly the same in your picking and choosing what you want to believe and read... and it shows with supporting the dude who gave the name croatan to the people then two days later saying they were tuscarora and then another time saying they were cherokee.... all you hear is the tuscarora part and somehow that negates the rest. How does that work exactly?
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Old 07-25-2008, 01:13 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
UH can we say DUH?? Come ON!! if they said it about the father and brother does that SOMEHOW exclude the rest of the children????????? Or somehow some are good because of their tuscarora blood and in the others it makes them murderous thieves????
FYI........................The ministers didn't write about them as though their Tuscarora blood had anything to do with any of their characteristics or personality traits.....................

Just let it go Bear...............your theory is bogus!

And everybody that's been reading this thing closely can see it!






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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post

you're doing exactly the same in your picking and choosing what you want to believe and read... and it shows with supporting the dude who gave the name croatan to the people then two days later saying they were tuscarora and then another time saying they were cherokee.... all you hear is the tuscarora part and somehow that negates the rest. How does that work exactly?

Now your just being petty

Nowhere did I ever say I support McMillan...........just pointing out that even he acknowledged that the people themselves actually claimed to be Tuscarora before he pulled all that other stuff out of his arse!

It also doesn't help that "ALL" of the other people who wrote about Robco Indian Origins "BEFORE HIM" also said Tuscarora.

Maybe you don't get it..............but somehow I get the feeling that most of the other people on here do..........so whatever.

You also forget who your talking to here..........you know..........that guy who used to help you argue against there being any significant Tuscarora blood here..................You don't remember telling me to go to the Yahoo group and check out what those crazy people were saying? I used to think just like you and I honestly thought the whole thing was a joke as well.........and you know this............."EVERYBODY" whos been on powwows.com for any amount of time and has been following all these Lumbee/Tuscarora discussions knows this!

Hell folks.........just go read my old posts.........its all there...................I'm some crazy fanatic who only wants to believe that I'm Tuscarora and nothing else...................I just totally flipped my whole entire self concept one day and came on here admitting that I was wrong (making a complete azz out of myself in the process) just because I only wanted to see what supported Tuscarora........

Get real!
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Old 07-25-2008, 02:32 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
Well like I said I cna't give that to you since I'm not the one who personally did the research.
However, if it was an assumption on someone's part.. then why was James there with some woman other than his wife?
He did have a daughter by the name of Celia didn't he?


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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
I was'nt saying it proved Townsend wrong.. where'd you get that? All I was trying to show you was why I did'nt find Normant credible... Townsend was'nt in question, you just added that in. And regardless of her tuscarora information; you can't trust a dog you've caught stealing food to guard your steak is my point.
And as I said, these were just a few instances in the book... there were alot more. And if theier sections on the Lowries origins were different, then how does that make her credible again?
How is it that you can keep insinuating that Normant made up her Tuscarora claims when Townsend said the same thing before her?

If you aren't questioning townsends motives for saying Tuscarora then why are you questioning Normants?

I'm confused here?

In regards to Normants credibility: It makes her credible because its apparent that she put a lot of emphasis on that part...........meaning that that was probably what intirested her the most............meaning that that is probably what she was more inclined to inquire about than the rest..................also explaining why she decided to quote 9 independant witnesses in regards to that section but did not go out of her way in regards to other frivilouse things that she may have just decided to take Townsends word for............ultimately boiling down to her being more reliable in that section than she was in the other irrelevant areas.


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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
uh... compared to what she copied from Townsend, this would be very little research on her part ....
It wasn't the only intimate detail she got right in that section...........all of the sons she mentioned actually were his sons...........she said james moved here about 1769 and his land grant was recieved in 1767.......etc.........

All of the details here were "REMARKABLY ACCURATE" (exspecially considering it was about 100 yrs after the fact).

Hell even her Tuscarora claim had been stated by several other people before her..............all she did was offer some intimate details that nobody else had addressed..........and overall she verifiably was very close in this regard.

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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
I'm not sure where I ever said they made the claim up... this all started with you wanting to know about Sally Kearsey and my reasons for not trusting Mary Normant and both were answered. And that even this story does'nt give more than "good" evidence as opposed to "overwhelming". Especially when there seems to be motive behind why some would have said they were Tuscarora.


So (in the same breath mind you) your claiming that you never said they made the Tuscarora claim up.................then your saying there seems to be motive behind why some would have said they were Tuscarora...................

I dunno.........maybe its just me.........but you seem to be implying 2 different things here?


In regards to why this started, what I wanted to know, and it allready being answered: you said its a proven "FACT" that James married Pricilla.............that is still on the table until Sara comes back.........so lets not get ahead of ourselves here!


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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
The ministers would have an interest in the two relatives that rode with the gang... what if they used that information to try to save the lives or reputations of their relatives? It's just a thought to throw out there....
You see...................this right here illustrates further how much you really don't understand the situation.........neither Allen or his son William were ever part of the gang! It was their death that set Henry Berry off ultimately leading to the gangs formation!
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Old 07-25-2008, 12:30 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by lumbeedancer View Post
He did have a daughter by the name of Celia didn't he?
Why yes, did'nt we say she was a Jr? As in Celia jr?



Quote:
How is it that you can keep insinuating that Normant made up her Tuscarora claims when Townsend said the same thing before her?

If you aren't questioning townsends motives for saying Tuscarora then why are you questioning Normants?

I'm confused here?
Ok what's confusing you here is you are syaing her stuff is'nt bogus cause she copied Townsend... But that does not make her a credible source because she copied. What I mean by that is that she is often used as ANOTHER person who said they were Tuscarora when all she did is copy.That doesn't make her another source, it makes her a copy of one source.

Quote:
In regards to Normants credibility: It makes her credible because its apparent that she put a lot of emphasis on that part...........meaning that that was probably what intirested her the most............meaning that that is probably what she was more inclined to inquire about than the rest..................also explaining why she decided to quote 9 independant witnesses in regards to that section but did not go out of her way in regards to other frivilouse things that she may have just decided to take Townsends word for............ultimately boiling down to her being more reliable in that section than she was in the other irrelevant areas.
HA!! No she put emphasis on it because it was a drama story and she wanted to make money off the Lowery name and I would be Townsend was thinking the same thing. And back then, what was the name of the indian people that struck fear into the very heart of people in NC even a century and a half later?????? Tuscarora. So basically they used the name Tuscarora in a very insulting manner to say that it was what made them murderous, theiving and "inhuman" was even one of the descriptions, while it was the white and negro blood that kept them from raping and insulting white ladies.

I'm surprised you don't see how insulting those two were when they wrote those books, and all for dramatization and big sell..... nothing less than a wild Bill Cody story or 1950's western portrayel of the savage indian.


Quote:
It wasn't the only intimate detail she got right in that section...........all of the sons she mentioned actually were his sons...........she said james moved here about 1769 and his land grant was recieved in 1767.......etc.........

All of the details here were "REMARKABLY ACCURATE" (exspecially considering it was about 100 yrs after the fact).

Hell even her Tuscarora claim had been stated by several other people before her..............all she did was offer some intimate details that nobody else had addressed..........and overall she verifiably was very close in this regard.
There you go... been stated by several before her.... so what research did she have to do? Sorry, but she was nothing more than a bad copy cat. Too bad you can't see it.

Quote:
So (in the same breath mind you) your claiming that you never said they made the Tuscarora claim up.................then your saying there seems to be motive behind why some would have said they were Tuscarora...................

I dunno.........maybe its just me.........but you seem to be implying 2 different things here?
Naw, you're just not listening....

Quote:
In regards to why this started, what I wanted to know, and it allready being answered: you said its a proven "FACT" that James married Pricilla.............that is still on the table until Sara comes back.........so lets not get ahead of ourselves here!
Is that why you are being so rude to Aksod? That's not Sara I hate to tell you.

Quote:
You see...................this right here illustrates further how much you really don't understand the situation.........neither Allen or his son William were ever part of the gang! It was their death that set Henry Berry off ultimately leading to the gangs formation!
still does'nt mean they might not have ulterior motive
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Old 07-25-2008, 12:56 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by lumbeedancer View Post
FYI........................The ministers didn't write about them as though their Tuscarora blood had anything to do with any of their characteristics or personality traits.....................

Just let it go Bear...............your theory is bogus!

And everybody that's been reading this thing closely can see it!
I doubt anyone is even reading it my dear... nor that they even care. And it's yet to be found that the theory is bogus.








Quote:
Now your just being petty

Nowhere did I ever say I support McMillan...........just pointing out that even he acknowledged that the people themselves actually claimed to be Tuscarora before he pulled all that other stuff out of his arse!
No, Tuscarora came in the middle and was just one more name he pulled out of his arse! And you used it as a qualifier, proof, not a simple acknowledgement of the mention.



Quote:
It also doesn't help that "ALL" of the other people who wrote about Robco Indian Origins "BEFORE HIM" also said Tuscarora.

Maybe you don't get it..............but somehow I get the feeling that most of the other people on here do..........so whatever.
All? and how many people was that about how many families???? And then why did it take the name Croatan to get them recognized as indian and then why did they go by the name cherokee and then lumbee if EVERYONE knew that their ancestors were and always stated that they were Tuscarora? Maybe one or two families but not all of them ....In fact MOST of them did'nt know what kind of indian they were even in the mid 1800's. They did'nt care... they were'nt a tribe, there were no benefits, they were happy just being.


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You also forget who your talking to here..........you know..........that guy who used to help you argue against there being any significant Tuscarora blood here..................You don't remember telling me to go to the Yahoo group and check out what those crazy people were saying? I used to think just like you and I honestly thought the whole thing was a joke as well.........and you know this............."EVERYBODY" whos been on powwows.com for any amount of time and has been following all these Lumbee/Tuscarora discussions knows this!
I forget nothing... I think you got suckered in to the whole thing and now you sound exactly like Chris. You believing in his ridiculous conspiracy theories too? And you used to be a happy person who went to school, danced at powwows and was proud of who you are without all the irritation.

Quote:
Hell folks.........just go read my old posts.........its all there...................I'm some crazy fanatic who only wants to believe that I'm Tuscarora and nothing else...................I just totally flipped my whole entire self concept one day and came on here admitting that I was wrong (making a complete azz out of myself in the process) just because I only wanted to see what supported Tuscarora........

Get real!

And I never said there was'nt any tuscarora blood in the mix ever.. just that I never felt it was overwhelming enough to say that the folks there are really just tuscaroras. And there is not enough evidence to support that either.
All that is known for sure is that some mixed blood tuscaroras (as well as other indian families of other origins) made it there as assimilated land owners who didnt give two cents about the old culture or what their identity would mean a century and a half later. Pretty plain and simple. And there is ample evidence to that... but you joined a faction that represents less than 5% of the people in Robeson County on a mission to convice everyone otherwise.
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Old 07-25-2008, 02:13 PM   #48
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Old 07-25-2008, 02:34 PM   #49
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Old 07-25-2008, 02:40 PM   #50
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It is like some horrific car wreck I can't turn my head from. I don't want to keep reading, but I do.
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Old 07-25-2008, 02:45 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
Why yes, did'nt we say she was a Jr? As in Celia jr?
The documents say Cielia..........and in another place they say Cielia Jr.............there is nothing proving that this wasn't the same person........this is my point.

You also forget that James' mother is said to have been named Pricilla.............so this stuff isn't as solid as you think!

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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
Ok what's confusing you here is you are syaing her stuff is'nt bogus cause she copied Townsend... But that does not make her a credible source because she copied. What I mean by that is that she is often used as ANOTHER person who said they were Tuscarora when all she did is copy.That doesn't make her another source, it makes her a copy of one source.
Besides the fact that she went into detail here (and was verifiably right I might add on just about everything) your missing the point.

You can't say she just called them Tuscarora to sell books when there were other people who called them Tuscarora before her.............plain and simple! .................dramatizing something and just pulling it out of your a&& are two totally different things.

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HA!! No she put emphasis on it because it was a drama story and she wanted to make money off the Lowery name and I would be Townsend was thinking the same thing. And back then, what was the name of the indian people that struck fear into the very heart of people in NC even a century and a half later?????? Tuscarora. So basically they used the name Tuscarora in a very insulting manner to say that it was what made them murderous, theiving and "inhuman" was even one of the descriptions, while it was the white and negro blood that kept them from raping and insulting white ladies.
Perhaps they did dramatize.............still doesn't mean that the people weren't Tuscarora..............again the ministers were the first and their letter wasn't for the public eye..................

So I will say this again............Your theory that they made this up to sell books falls to pieces here! It's irrational!

By the way you just contradicted yourself "BIG TIME" you just said you weren't questioning Townsend and you didn't know where I was getting the Idea from that you were! Now here you are trying to apply your bugus theory to him.........

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I'm surprised you don't see how insulting those two were when they wrote those books, and all for dramatization and big sell..... nothing less than a wild Bill Cody story or 1950's western portrayel of the savage indian.
Whether they dramatized some things or not is irrelevant........what is relevant are the things they said that can be backed up by other documentation.

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There you go... been stated by several before her.... so what research did she have to do? Sorry, but she was nothing more than a bad copy cat. Too bad you can't see it.
Again the Origins section was completely different and had "A LOT" of "INTIMATE DETAILS" that nobody else had mentioned before her.............So she could "NOT" have copied that part.



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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
Naw, you're just not listening....
You wouldn't admit that now would you?

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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
Is that why you are being so rude to Aksod? That's not Sara I hate to tell you.
No........just being direct............I actually respect Sara to be quite honest with you.....I may disagree with her on some things but I do have respect for her.

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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
still does'nt mean they might not have ulterior motive
So basically you can't apply your theory to them...........so now it just boils down to you saying they had to have other motives because they said Tuscarora..............

Sorry bear.............but let it go.............your theory is bogus!

Can anybody say..........Personal Bias!
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Old 07-25-2008, 06:24 PM   #52
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I doubt anyone is even reading it my dear... nor that they even care. And it's yet to be found that the theory is bogus.

No comment on the whether anyone is reading this or not part.........my answer is self explanatory!


In regards to your theory ..........well we've been over that 10 times allready and its probably about time to let everybody else just read what you wrote then read what I wrote and just make what they want of it.........we're obviously never going to agree.........Where is Aksod anyway?



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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
No, Tuscarora came in the middle and was just one more name he pulled out of his arse! And you used it as a qualifier, proof, not a simple acknowledgement of the mention.
You see...........he couldn't have just pulled it out of thin air if there were 5 other people who said it before him............so there obviously was truth to his Tuscarora statement..............

By the way............the Fayetteville Observer article was a reprint................it actually originally came out a month or so prior in an Ashville newspaper. (as in a month or so before the Croatan bill passed....................which means that he knew this while he was pulling the croatan mess out of you know where!).


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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
All? and how many people was that about how many families???? And then why did it take the name Croatan to get them recognized as indian and then why did they go by the name cherokee and then lumbee if EVERYONE knew that their ancestors were and always stated that they were Tuscarora? Maybe one or two families but not all of them ....In fact MOST of them did'nt know what kind of indian they were even in the mid 1800's. They did'nt care... they were'nt a tribe, there were no benefits, they were happy just being.


Well...........to your surprise i'm going to agree with you somewhat here..................many just didn't know anymore......they were a very inculturated people.

The ones that did..............well we all know what they had to say now don't we? You also forget that the Tuscarora name wasn't allways just applied to individuals...........it was applied to the people as a whole as well (who were said in 1840 to have "ORIGINATED" from the district roundabout the Roanoke and Neuse Rivers............we all know what kinda Indian it was that traditionally called that region home now don't we?)

Altogether you can find a direct reference to 7 families being of Tuscarora blood (Locklear, Lowrie, Oxendine, Cumbo, Kersey, Strong, and Dial)...........arguably Normant also infered that the Revels, Chavis, Ransom, Woods, Cummings, Goins, Braboy, Jacobs, Scott, and Hunt families were as well...........but I'll leave that up to the reader to decide:


lowriehistory


I tell you what.............In my next post I'm going to bring up General Gorman's statements............we haven't been there yet have we?

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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
I forget nothing... I think you got suckered in to the whole thing and now you sound exactly like Chris. You believing in his ridiculous conspiracy theories too? And you used to be a happy person who went to school, danced at powwows and was proud of who you are without all the irritation.
First of all..............I never said I believe in the whole conspiracy thing...............If I recal correctly I believe I said I still have mixed feelings about it.....................

Elements of conspiracy are there in regards to certain events...........but I don't see it as being there to the degree that some other folks do.............PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!

In regards to me going to school...........I don't see your point! I GRADUATED BEAR! Is there something wrong with that?

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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
And I never said there was'nt any tuscarora blood in the mix ever.. just that I never felt it was overwhelming enough to say that the folks there are really just tuscaroras. And there is not enough evidence to support that either.
All that is known for sure is that some mixed blood tuscaroras (as well as other indian families of other origins) made it there as assimilated land owners who didnt give two cents about the old culture or what their identity would mean a century and a half later. Pretty plain and simple. And there is ample evidence to that... but you joined a faction that represents less than 5% of the people in Robeson County on a mission to convice everyone otherwise.
I'm not on a mission to convince everyone else of anything................people are going to believe what they want. But I do believe they have a right to know what history actually says.............and I am on a mission to make sure that happens!

Let the one's who's geneology traces back to Tuscarora territory be Tuscarora.........let the ones whos geneology traces back to Cheraw territory be Lumbee/Cheraw and see who will represent less than 5% of the population then!
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Old 07-26-2008, 02:28 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by lumbeedancer View Post

Let the one's who's geneology traces back to Tuscarora territory be Tuscarora.........let the ones whos geneology traces back to Cheraw territory be Lumbee/Cheraw and see who will represent less than 5% of the population then!
Wouldn't that be nice. The problem is the documentation gap from Exodus to the mid 1800s. We'll never have enough documentation to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. We can only put the pieces together logically and make the arguement.

As strong as they are, the idea that Tusc. blood is all over Eastern Carolina is obvious. It is obvious,just not provable.

You know you have to connect the dots. The Tusc. of NY doesn't like DOTS. They will always take the stand of , No solid proof, no inclusion. Even if you found a reciept from a sale of property of the Mattamuskeet Res. The Tusc. of NY will always fall back on:
"The people that split/stayed behind, dis-membered themselves
therefore, you have to rights to claim."
You can't fault B sqaured for backing her tribes position.
There is no way they want thousands of Carolinians with Tusc. blood petitioning them for rights.
Just my thought.
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Old 07-26-2008, 05:27 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by lumbeedancer View Post


First of all..............I never said I believe in the whole conspiracy thing...............If I recal correctly I believe I said I still have mixed feelings about it.....................

Elements of conspiracy are there in regards to certain events...........but I don't see it as being there to the degree that some other folks do.............PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!
I'm not putting words in your mouth.. go back and read and you'll see there was a question mark behind that quote making it a question, NOT a statement.
Quote:

in regards to me going to school...........I don't see your point! I GRADUATED BEAR! Is there something wrong with that?
Talk about getting snippy... I was saying who you used to be... nothing wrong with graduating, in fact condratulations on that.... but I said it as opposed to how you seem today.

Quote:
I'm not on a mission to convince everyone else of anything................people are going to believe what they want. But I do believe they have a right to know what history actually says.............and I am on a mission to make sure that happens!

Let the one's who's geneology traces back to Tuscarora territory be Tuscarora.........let the ones whos geneology traces back to Cheraw territory be Lumbee/Cheraw and see who will represent less than 5% of the population then!
And then let them know that history takes their families further back to VA for most of them if you want them to know the truth..... I'll have to reply to the rest later. My kids are letting me know they want my attention today and well, they are more important to me than debating with you. Besides it's the weekend.
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Old 07-26-2008, 07:59 PM   #55
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My persona on this particular board is as intense as it is because it's something I feel very strongly about.................and I want to be as clear and direct as possible.........

Personally I'm all for taking a break every once and a while..............it actually gives people a chance to consider what’s been said before something else is thrown at them................so by all means.............let it go a few days................... there is no-rule saying that an immediate response is required........

In regards to our families going back to VA............about 1/3 of them do have "PARTIAL (as in they were usually in Northeastern NC 2-4 generations before coming to Robeson)" documentable lineage from VA and I have never denied this...............but for 2/3 of them there is no proof of that..........just that other people with the same surnames are originally found in VA.

Considering that most of the European surnames in NC came from VA.......well obviously that is where most of the European surnames that our people have today are going to find their roots........but that doesn't mean that VA is where our people came from (at least in regards to their Indian blood........I'm sure we can both agree that there aren't too many people who have been accused of calling us a bunch of full bloods........)

The oldest reference to the origins of the people in Robeson states that we "ORIGINATED from the regions round about the Roanoke and Neuse rivers (which for the most part is in northeastern NC)" and the genealogy of today for the most part verifies this 168 year old understanding (hell some of the younger 1st generation migrants to Robeson were still alive when this statement was made.........)!

Not to mention that both Gorman (who I guess I'll just wait till sometime next week to go into detail about) and McMillan's Croatan bill also said the Roanoke River in NC later on...................

This understanding had some very deep roots.......and again.....the genealogy of today verifies it (and until you spend 400+ hours of your time going over the evidence presented in individual family trees here...........which I have done...........instead of just taking other people's word for it......... you can't possibly understand how..................just because a certain researcher "assumed" they came from VA doesn't mean that there is really proof of these claims when we get down to the nuts and bolts of it!).
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Old 07-26-2008, 08:25 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by lostsalt View Post
Wouldn't that be nice. The problem is the documentation gap from Exodus to the mid 1800s. We'll never have enough documentation to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. We can only put the pieces together logically and make the arguement.

As strong as they are, the idea that Tusc. blood is all over Eastern Carolina is obvious. It is obvious,just not provable.

You know you have to connect the dots. The Tusc. of NY doesn't like DOTS. They will always take the stand of , No solid proof, no inclusion. Even if you found a reciept from a sale of property of the Mattamuskeet Res. The Tusc. of NY will always fall back on:
"The people that split/stayed behind, dis-membered themselves
therefore, you have to rights to claim."
You can't fault B sqaured for backing her tribes position.
There is no way they want thousands of Carolinians with Tusc. blood petitioning them for rights.
Just my thought.

I understand Bears position……………..and I understand the Tuscarora Nation in New Yorks position………………I also understand your position and you all are entitled to your own opinions………………but there is another perspective out there that also needs to be taken into consideration………………….You don’t have to agree……………..but it does need to at least be understood:

According to Roy F. Johnson: before the Tuscarora war broke out there were about 5,000 living Tuscaroras……………..by the war’s end the population is estimated to have been reduced to right at about 3,000 people.

John R. Swanton places the overall still accounted for Tuscarora population at about 400 people in 1796. And a few other sources state that by about the year 1800 approximately 440 Tuscaroras are accounted for in New York and Canada. About the year 1803 other sources state that about 100-150 Tuscaroras went north ending the migration………….giving us a maximum of about 590 Tuscaroras combined between Niagara Falls and Grand River.

What this tells us is that there were somewhere between 2,400- 2,600 Tuscaroras who did not make it to New York or Canada ……….if we put that into fraction form it means that about 6 out of 7 Tuscaroras who survived that war did not end up with the folks who are officially recognized as being Tuscarora today.

The Tuscaroras historically were divided into at least 18 different towns (I’ve heard many say this # was originally higher………somewhere around 24 I believe?) that each had their own independent leadership! 1/7th (14%) of the population of these historically independent communities does not have the right to strip the rest (86%) of their identity!

Our ancestors separated and dispersed as a result of oppression, kidnappings, slavery, encroachments, colonization, war, etc……….they were under severe duress at the time………….these things should be considered and weighed before rash judgments in regards to entire surviving communities are made.

It must be understood that the Tuscarora people here have no desire to be included by/with the Tuscaroras of New York. We have our own distinct communities and issues to deal with right here at home. Whether the evidence is enough for those in NY (or those in DC for that matter) is actually irrelevant when we get down to it……………It’s enough for us and that’s all that really matters! We are asserting our identity based on our history in our own distinct communities that are completely independent from those in the north………and it really doesn’t concern them in this regard. Mutual respect, friendship, and understanding are definitely desired…………..but it is not a necessity by any means.

Regardless of how any outsiders may feel, we are not going to just go away and cease to exist……….and people are going to have to learn to accept this and live with it whether they approve of it or not…………because there is nothing that they can do about it………....they don’t have that kind of power!
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Old 07-28-2008, 12:33 PM   #57
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The documents say Cielia..........and in another place they say Cielia Jr.............there is nothing proving that this wasn't the same person........this is my point.

You also forget that James' mother is said to have been named Pricilla.............so this stuff isn't as solid as you think!
Well we'll leave that to Aksod to defend....


Besides the fact that she went into detail here (and was verifiably right I might add on just about everything) your missing the point.

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You can't say she just called them Tuscarora to sell books when there were other people who called them Tuscarora before her.............plain and simple! .................dramatizing something and just pulling it out of your a&& are two totally different things.
Why not? It woud'nt make sense for her to say they were anything else since the cherokee were'nt warring, and the algonquins and siouans were all but gone... It was par for the course during those times to write about "blood-thirsty, murderous" indians.

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Perhaps they did dramatize.............still doesn't mean that the people weren't Tuscarora..............again the ministers were the first and their letter wasn't for the public eye..................

So I will say this again............Your theory that they made this up to sell books falls to pieces here! It's irrational!
But it's not... there are too many variables here and who's to say just because their letters were nto for the public eye that their mouths did'nt tell the story outside of the letter?

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By the way you just contradicted yourself "BIG TIME" you just said you weren't questioning Townsend and you didn't know where I was getting the Idea from that you were! Now here you are trying to apply your bugus theory to him.........
Hey, let me ask this... is Townsend in any way related to the David Townsend that in the book opened fire on the gang at his residence and wounded Gilbert?

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Whether they dramatized some things or not is irrelevant........what is relevant are the things they said that can be backed up by other documentation.
And yet those are other sources... all I've called into question is Mary's and yes Mary would have motive because her husband was supposed to have been killed by this gang.


Quote:
Again the Origins section was completely different and had "A LOT" of "INTIMATE DETAILS" that nobody else had mentioned before her.............So she could "NOT" have copied that part.
I said she did some if little research.. but it's more than apparent she copied from Townsend....


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No........just being direct............I actually respect Sara to be quite honest with you.....I may disagree with her on some things but I do have respect for her.
Dude that's not Sara... Sara has a screen name here and it's not Aksod... she's not a grandmother.

Quote:
So basically you can't apply your theory to them...........so now it just boils down to you saying they had to have other motives because they said Tuscarora..............

Sorry bear.............but let it go.............your theory is bogus!

Can anybody say..........Personal Bias!
Yeah I can say personal bias since that claim can go both ways... but I'm saying that Normant is not a source that has credibility and after reading her book there is no way I'd want her as one either LOL! On top of plagerism she was insulting and a terrible writer!
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Old 07-28-2008, 12:55 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by lumbeedancer View Post
In regards to our families going back to VA............about 1/3 of them do have "PARTIAL (as in they were usually in Northeastern NC 2-4 generations before coming to Robeson)" documentable lineage from VA and I have never denied this...............but for 2/3 of them there is no proof of that..........just that other people with the same surnames are originally found in VA.

Considering that most of the European surnames in NC came from VA.......well obviously that is where most of the European surnames that our people have today are going to find their roots........but that doesn't mean that VA is where our people came from (at least in regards to their Indian blood........I'm sure we can both agree that there aren't too many people who have been accused of calling us a bunch of full bloods........)
The indian origins man... white is a given and most settlers came through VA up to a certain point but that's not what I am trying to say is that there is white blood diluting or whatever... there were indians in those areas as well who were already intermarrying with the settlers who were not Tuscaroras... Not to mention all the different tribes that settled in and among the tuscarora at Indian woods. And remember as far as self identification goes, not everyone was adopted by the tuscarora but many tuscarora were adopted by the siouxans... we know that many were adopted by the Saponi and the Occaneechi and that when they were adopted, by our culture that they were then no longer Tuscaroras but Saponis and Occaneechis.


Quote:
The oldest reference to the origins of the people in Robeson states that we "ORIGINATED from the regions round about the Roanoke and Neuse rivers (which for the most part is in northeastern NC)" and the genealogy of today for the most part verifies this 168 year old understanding (hell some of the younger 1st generation migrants to Robeson were still alive when this statement was made.........)!
And who else were there? The Chowan, Nansemond.. right? Coastal Algonquins who were at that time subserviant to the Tuscarora.


Quote:
Not to mention that both Gorman (who I guess I'll just wait till sometime next week to go into detail about) and McMillan's Croatan bill also said the Roanoke River in NC later on...................

You do remember that Hatteras being a basterdized form of Kateras is just Chris's theory and his alone right? Keep that in mind when you bring up McMillan and Lawson.

Quote:
This understanding had some very deep roots.......and again.....the genealogy of today verifies it (and until you spend 400+ hours of your time going over the evidence presented in individual family trees here...........which I have done...........instead of just taking other people's word for it......... you can't possibly understand how..................just because a certain researcher "assumed" they came from VA doesn't mean that there is really proof of these claims when we get down to the nuts and bolts of it!).
Except that VA was the immigrant hub at the time.... Hell I can trace my white roots back to VA when the two brothers first came over here via Amsterdam from Scotland. I can find my lineage in New Bern during the time of the Tuscarora War and then to Pennsylvania and Kentucky and then to IL.... so keep looking, and don't just stop in NC cause that's where you think it's going to stop.
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Old 07-28-2008, 12:59 PM   #59
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I understand Bears position……………..and I understand the Tuscarora Nation in New Yorks position………………I also understand your position and you all are entitled to your own opinions………………but there is another perspective out there that also needs to be taken into consideration………………….You don’t have to agree……………..but it does need to at least be understood:

According to Roy F. Johnson: before the Tuscarora war broke out there were about 5,000 living Tuscaroras……………..by the war’s end the population is estimated to have been reduced to right at about 3,000 people.

John R. Swanton places the overall still accounted for Tuscarora population at about 400 people in 1796. And a few other sources state that by about the year 1800 approximately 440 Tuscaroras are accounted for in New York and Canada. About the year 1803 other sources state that about 100-150 Tuscaroras went north ending the migration………….giving us a maximum of about 590 Tuscaroras combined between Niagara Falls and Grand River.

What this tells us is that there were somewhere between 2,400- 2,600 Tuscaroras who did not make it to New York or Canada ……….if we put that into fraction form it means that about 6 out of 7 Tuscaroras who survived that war did not end up with the folks who are officially recognized as being Tuscarora today.

The Tuscaroras historically were divided into at least 18 different towns (I’ve heard many say this # was originally higher………somewhere around 24 I believe?) that each had their own independent leadership! 1/7th (14%) of the population of these historically independent communities does not have the right to strip the rest (86%) of their identity!

Our ancestors separated and dispersed as a result of oppression, kidnappings, slavery, encroachments, colonization, war, etc……….they were under severe duress at the time………….these things should be considered and weighed before rash judgments in regards to entire surviving communities are made.

It must be understood that the Tuscarora people here have no desire to be included by/with the Tuscaroras of New York. We have our own distinct communities and issues to deal with right here at home. Whether the evidence is enough for those in NY (or those in DC for that matter) is actually irrelevant when we get down to it……………It’s enough for us and that’s all that really matters! We are asserting our identity based on our history in our own distinct communities that are completely independent from those in the north………and it really doesn’t concern them in this regard. Mutual respect, friendship, and understanding are definitely desired…………..but it is not a necessity by any means.

Regardless of how any outsiders may feel, we are not going to just go away and cease to exist……….and people are going to have to learn to accept this and live with it whether they approve of it or not…………because there is nothing that they can do about it………....they don’t have that kind of power!
I'm gonna have to come back to this.. can't concentrate when I'm being text messaged about a bear on my best friend's porch.... her husband unknowingly created a garbage bear and it will probably end up being put down cause he's already bold enough to come on the porch so he's eventually gonna try to get in her house.... BUT I WILL COME BACK TO THIS LOL!!
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Old 07-29-2008, 01:14 PM   #60
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It must be understood that the Tuscarora people here have no desire to be included by/with the Tuscaroras of New York. We have our own distinct communities and issues to deal with right here at home. Whether the evidence is enough for those in NY (or those in DC for that matter) is actually irrelevant when we get down to it……………It’s enough for us and that’s all that really matters! We are asserting our identity based on our history in our own distinct communities that are completely independent from those in the north………and it really doesn’t concern them in this regard. Mutual respect, friendship, and understanding are definitely desired…………..but it is not a necessity by any means.
This has been stated before and again but then turned around and someone's lovely demonstrations about this or that ends up being an insult fest on the Tuscarora Nation.

Neheroka is the best example of that with three of us women trying to let folks there know that the situation is'nt as it seems, that these requests/demands were met nearly a year before they were even stated by the people that own the property of thier own accord because they have nothing but the welfare of that place in their interest. The people who were planning the demonstration along with pulling in a high profile activist and news crews... were informed of all this and STILL went ahead and did the demonstration even though there was no call for it anymore.

In this demonstration it was stated that somehow these folks felt they had more right to repatriation of the remains removed from there when they can show absolutely no ties to the people who were killed there and the language used suggested that the Tuscarora Nation were forceably removed (the people in the lower towns were already trying to leave which is shown in their sending wampum to PENN to try to settle there) which is not entirely true. It was in the choice of words used that suggested and blatently even stated that the Tuscarora Nation does not care about it's ancestors or the remains even though the situation was politely explained to people who's business it really is'nt. And if yous really descend from those from Bertie, then Neheroka is not your business. You do not descend from those that survived the attacks on the southern towns and villiages.

Also the attack there was repeatedly called a massacre/ attempted genocide. The truth is that was a war. There would have been no fort full of people defending themselves with supplies and ammunitions if it were not expected a retaliation for our attack on New Bern (which in reality could be called a massacre since those people were unsuspecting). Men, young and old... women and children ALL ARMED to defend themselves. Pits and escape tunnel dug.... this was no surprise on Neheroka, and to suggest this was a massacre is offensive and cheapens the lives of those who fought and died.
They were not poor unsuspecting people, they were warriors fighting for their land and their lives, and the ONLY reason that they lost was because they were expecting the northern towns to join them in this fight and the northern towns did'nt come because Blount who was bribed by the colonists kept them out of the fight betraying his own kind for his arrogance and a patch of land that he eventually chose to leave for Bertie.

Oh but today, possible but not proven descendants of those from Bertie want repatriation rights for remains that they don't even know the customs and traditions of burial to even put them back in the ground....
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