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Old 02-11-2012, 12:43 PM   #1
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PBS NEWS - Why the Sioux are refusing $1.3B

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/...lls_08-23.html
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Old 02-11-2012, 06:09 PM   #2
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:04 PM   #3
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Sigh...

They're not accepting $$$ because:

1. They think they'll get the land back.
2. They think they will -- eventually -- get more.

Neither, unless you count legally accrued interest, is going to occur.

All the while, folks live in poverty and another generation is lost because no services are available.

How is that smart, again?
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Old 02-11-2012, 11:17 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Sigh...

They're not accepting $$$ because:

1. They think they'll get the land back.
2. They think they will -- eventually -- get more.

Neither, unless you count legally accrued interest, is going to occur.

All the while, folks live in poverty and another generation is lost because no services are available.

How is that smart, again?

Very smart for those who place greater value on the spiritual things than the material I suppose.
It is a hard thing to stand up for what you believe in especially in the face of great difficulty. But they are doing just that and for doing so~I admire them.
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Old 02-11-2012, 11:29 PM   #5
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Old 02-11-2012, 11:40 PM   #6
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Very smart for those who place greater value on the spiritual things than the material I suppose.
Then you suppose wrong. Because it is very, VERY dumb to assign slavery to your ancestors while chasing a pipe dream. (That's WHY they're called "pipe dreams.")

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Originally Posted by comadre View Post
It is a hard thing to stand up for what you believe in especially in the face of great difficulty.
Not if you're standing up for the right things.

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Originally Posted by comadre View Post
But they are doing just that and for doing so~I admire them.
What they're standing up for is further enslavement whilst chasing an impossible goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneBead
Some things are more important than money
Yeah, survival.

And, without the $$$, they're slowly dying: which is JUST FINE with those offering the spoils.

Or, do you think the Great White Father isn't laughing at our inability to make ourselves powerful?
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:10 AM   #7
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Then you suppose wrong. Because it is very, VERY dumb to assign slavery to your ancestors while chasing a pipe dream. (That's WHY they're called "pipe dreams.")



Not if you're standing up for the right things.



What they're standing up for is further enslavement whilst chasing an impossible goal.



Yeah, survival.

And, without the $$$, they're slowly dying: which is JUST FINE with those offering the spoils.

Or, do you think the Great White Father isn't laughing at our inability to make ourselves powerful?
Maybe they don't really care what the "Great White Father" laughs about.
I do see from your post that you recognize that those offering the spoils are just fine with the dying off of the Sioux people. Perhaps the Sioux themselves know that too?
Looking at the article it tells us that this debate has been going on for a long time now and the Sioux have always said no to the money because their land (THEIR land) is not for sale.This issue is not a new one.Any of us who have known those from Sioux country know how strongly they feel about how the government just takes what they want from the Black Hills.This money appears to be bribe money in my opinion. (Here take this money so we can say you Sioux sold us land.)Then what? They are booted off their land so the government can dig out the minerals and deny the Sioux their own existence?
You said they are chasing an impossible goal. What is that goal that you speak of? I havn't the slightest idea but if we do not know their "GOAL" then how can we speak of it? And why would we have an opinion anyway if we are not Sioux ourselves?
As far as the "RIGHT" things to stand up for~ what is right for them could be different from what is "RIGHT" for Zeke. So again~how can you or I (non Siouxan people) make that judgement call?
Powerful. I think powerful comes in different ways.
$$$$$$$$. Maybe life and survival has nothing to do with $$$$$$$
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:20 AM   #8
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Sioux have always said no to the money because their land (THEIR land) is not for sale.
This, then, is the problem. You -- and they -- are not dealing in reality.

Here's a hint: IT'S NOT THEIR LAND.

Woulda', coulda', shoulda'? It's just not. That battle is lost.

Being offered a sum related to an already determined outcome is generous. Turning it down when it could help so many struggling people is inherently stupid.
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:23 AM   #9
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This, then, is the problem. You -- and they -- are not dealing in reality.

Here's a hint: IT'S NOT THEIR LAND.

Woulda', coulda', shoulda'? It's just not. That battle is lost.

Being offered a sum related to an already determined outcome is generous. Turning it down when it could help so many struggling people is inherently stupid.
Zeke don't hurt my feelings by calling me unrealistic please!
I don't want to split hairs about who's land it is. It is not my fight. What I was merely pointing out was that it appears that their point of view is not about $$$$$$$$. But rather what they believe to be an important issue regarding their (ok they percieve it to be THEIR land). And I still say good for them that they can stand up for what they believe in. Because people who still possess a spine are getting to be real scarce these days.

Surely there must be someone of Sioux blood that can speak to this issue with some clarity.

Last edited by comadre; 02-12-2012 at 01:29 AM..
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:53 AM   #10
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Zeke don't hurt my feelings by calling me unrealistic please!
I don't want to split hairs about who's land it is.
But that's the crux of the argument.

And, I assure you, I am not mad or in any way trying to specifically disrespect or upset you. I promise.

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Surely there must be someone of Sioux blood that can speak to this issue with some clarity.
I, actually, am a sliver but that's not the point. It is exceedingly possible that someone from within the situation will have less clarity as they will still be romanticizing the situation.

Quite simply, they don't possess the land and they never will. Given that, they should help their people as best hey can. How? Take the $$$ but do something with it.
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:54 AM   #11
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Then you suppose wrong. Because it is very, VERY dumb to assign slavery to your ancestors while chasing a pipe dream. (That's WHY they're called "pipe dreams.")



Not if you're standing up for the right things.



What they're standing up for is further enslavement whilst chasing an impossible goal.



Yeah, survival.

And, without the $$$, they're slowly dying: which is JUST FINE with those offering the spoils.

Or, do you think the Great White Father isn't laughing at our inability to make ourselves powerful?
You know Zeke, perhaps you need to be involved with a land claim before you shoot your mouth off about people chasing "pipe dreams". In the early 70s my people began a challenge to the Canadian government that ended in one of the most comprehensive self government and settled land claim in Canada's north. The Sto'lo Nation has signed a similar agreement in BC and the James Bay Cree now, after 50 years of land claims has the "La Paix des Braves" signed.

Our claims were dismissed by people like you and they maintained the archaic notions that we had extinguished our rights. Then suprise, suprise, it was discovered that inherent rights will trump any notion that a right is extinguished. Just ask the BC tribes that are in full treaty negotiations right now. Something that was assumed such as the Royal Proclamation of 1763 as binding BC First Nations was deemed to not be applicable as late as the 1990s - hence the treaty negotiations.

To people like you, that would have been considered a "Pipe Dream". I can always tell those NDNs that no longer have a relationship with their territories and lands - they lack the ability to see that a mere 100 year fight for land is nothing in the life of a tribe tied to that land.

I think I see the difference between you and I Zeke, you inadvertently maintain a subordinate position by referring to your government as the great white fathers - even in jest, and I refer to my government on a nation-to-nation position and think of my self, people and nation as an equal to the successor state of Canada. Hard to break out of the thought patterns you possess if you are always thinking that you are less than those who govern you. Try thinking of yourself as an equal, you might actually like what you discover.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:53 PM   #12
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I think I see the difference between you and I Zeke, you inadvertently maintain a subordinate position by referring to your government as the great white fathers - even in jest, and I refer to my government on a nation-to-nation position and think of my self, people and nation as an equal to the successor state of Canada.
1. Were Canada anywhere near as powerful as the United States, you'd have a more clear perspective.
2. "Limited sovereignty." What does that mean? We're NOT equals.
3. That's just the way that it is.

There are lots of land claims -- historical, ongoing, that I've been involved in or otherwise -- that have occurred involving Natives and the Federal government. Allow me to let you in on a secret: unless there's nothing to be had on/under the land, we don't get it back.

And, if/when we do, we're allowed to squat on it as Federal Reserve Land until such time as something valuable is discovered on or under it. Then, we get moved.

I'm glad (completely serious) that Canada is more left leaning than the normal somewhat Capitalist nation and they have been willing to give up stuff they don't actually care about as Utopian visions of Socialist grandeur run rampant across the countryside.

That's not going to fly, here.

Believing so, IS a pipe dream.

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Old 02-12-2012, 05:43 PM   #13
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Sigh...

They're not accepting $$$ because:

1. They think they'll get the land back.
2. They think they will -- eventually -- get more.

Neither, unless you count legally accrued interest, is going to occur.

All the while, folks live in poverty and another generation is lost because no services are available.

How is that smart, again?
You don't speak for us Big Poppa Z. How smart is your education from Arkansas? Seems like Sprint sales are making you happy, no?
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:52 PM   #14
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How smart is your education from Arkansas?
Smart enough to recognize babble and perceive that you -- specifically -- can barely speak for yourself.

What's your degree in, again?

Try Google and "ad hominem" to describe your (failed) argument.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:32 PM   #15
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1. Were Canada anywhere near as powerful as the United States, you'd have a more clear perspective.
2. "Limited sovereignty." What does that mean? We're NOT equals.
3. That's just the way that it is.

There are lots of land claims -- historical, ongoing, that I've been involved in or otherwise -- that have occurred involving Natives and the Federal government. Allow me to let you in on a secret: unless there's nothing to be had on/under the land, we don't get it back.

And, if/when we do, we're allowed to squat on it as Federal Reserve Land until such time as something valuable is discovered on or under it. Then, we get moved.

I'm glad (completely serious) that Canada is more left leaning than the normal somewhat Capitalist nation and they have been willing to give up stuff they don't actually care about as Utopian visions of Socialist grandeur run rampant across the countryside.

That's not going to fly, here.

Believing so, IS a pipe dream.
And so making a cheap shot over power is proving your point how?

Zeke, I expect better from you. Devolving down to a "My daddy is bigger than yours" type comeback is so grade school.

I have asked you before to read our self government/landclaim and I can see by your responses that you have not yet done so... if you had, you would see how silly your premise is.

I also believed in what our leaders were doing and are doing to reset the relationships we have and our treaty rights. I actually sat on our negotiation team for both the land claim and self government. I was a child when Elijah Smith first sought to gain our self determination and 40 years later, I'm actually living his dream and so will my grandchildren's children's children.

You sound like you have rolled over and given up and now expect everyone else to join you in your malaise to legitimise your inertia.
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:39 PM   #16
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And so making a cheap shot over power is proving your point how?
1. Accuracy isn't "cheap."
2. Limited sovereignty is an oxymoron.

It's not my fault that Canada is significantly less Capitalist than the United States and is quicker to give up things they don't truly care about.

"Treaty rights" are honored at the will and pleasure...

The FIRST time it's not their pleasure, you'll be actively slapped with what is real and true. (That's an old story, acted out MANY times in the States.)
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Old 02-13-2012, 12:22 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
1. Accuracy isn't "cheap."
2. Limited sovereignty is an oxymoron.

It's not my fault that Canada is significantly less Capitalist than the United States and is quicker to give up things they don't truly care about.

"Treaty rights" are honored at the will and pleasure...

The FIRST time it's not their pleasure, you'll be actively slapped with what is real and true. (That's an old story, acted out MANY times in the States.)
Zeke, Zeke, Zeke, you used the same argument in the Rape thread. It seems that when a Canadian shows you that there are endings to long and complex problems you come up with the same crap. It's time to get new material, yours is getting old.

Sadly Zeke, you should go have a read of the agreements. You might actually learn something and then your retorts might be accurate, right now they are nothing more than a blustering, gasbag with stale material.

As far as old stories from the States, well.. maybe you should look beyond your own nose and take a look at what other jurisdiction have been doing with treaty rights... us, Australia, New Zealand. Lots of land has been handed back.
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Old 02-13-2012, 01:29 AM   #18
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And, I assure you, I am not mad or in any way trying to specifically disrespect or upset you. I promise.

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Old 02-13-2012, 01:31 AM   #19
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Zeke, Zeke, Zeke, you used the same argument in the Rape thread. It seems that when a Canadian shows you that there are endings to long and complex problems you come up with the same crap. It's time to get new material, yours is getting old.

Sadly Zeke, you should go have a read of the agreements. You might actually learn something and then your retorts might be accurate, right now they are nothing more than a blustering, gasbag with stale material.

As far as old stories from the States, well.. maybe you should look beyond your own nose and take a look at what other jurisdiction have been doing with treaty rights... us, Australia, New Zealand. Lots of land has been handed back.
She called Zeke a gasbag!!!
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:46 AM   #20
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Zeke, Zeke, Zeke, you used the same argument in the Rape thread.
And it is still 100% accurate: especially related to "endings."

Quote:
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As far as old stories from the States, well.. maybe you should look beyond your own nose and take a look at what other jurisdiction have been doing with treaty rights...
I've perused some stuff but soon realized it was irrelevant because non-applicable jurisdictions matter to the United States government, why?

Truth is that they do not, at all, unless the Feds are seeking compromise based in other Nations relinquishing land. (They're not.)

Quote:
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She called Zeke a gasbag!!!
Which is a lame attempt to dismiss an argument she doesn't want to address: that there is ZERO linear relationship between what she espouses and this case.

This is very simple. What the Feds desire, they are going to get. $1.3B, if used wisely, can put you in a much better position for any future concerns than any currently held position.

Taking it and building something has you much further ahead than getting nothing but accrued interest in an account never accessed.

Why? Because you're never getting the land back.
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