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Old 02-13-2012, 10:32 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Smart enough to recognize babble and perceive that you -- specifically -- can barely speak for yourself.

What's your degree in, again?

Try Google and "ad hominem" to describe your (failed) argument.
Big Poppa Z, word around is that you are the biggest troll around. The Hogs aren't silent.
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:24 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
And it is still 100% accurate: especially related to "endings."



I've perused some stuff but soon realized it was irrelevant because non-applicable jurisdictions matter to the United States government, why?

Truth is that they do not, at all, unless the Feds are seeking compromise based in other Nations relinquishing land. (They're not.)



Which is a lame attempt to dismiss an argument she doesn't want to address: that there is ZERO linear relationship between what she espouses and this case.

This is very simple. What the Feds desire, they are going to get. $1.3B, if used wisely, can put you in a much better position for any future concerns than any currently held position.

Taking it and building something has you much further ahead than getting nothing but accrued interest in an account never accessed.

Why? Because you're never getting the land back.
For someone who claims to be as smart as you do Zeke, you have a habit of glossing over information that you have deemed irrelevant if it doesn't agree with you... the problem with that stance is that you just start sounding like a broken record and lend little to the actual discussion... you also become predictable and boring.

You say that international rulings are not applicable nor do you care to study them because you
Quote:
...soon realized it was irrelevant because non-applicable jurisdictions matter to the United States government, why?

Truth is that they do not, at all, unless the Feds are seeking compromise based in other Nations relinquishing land. (They're not.)
In law and yes, also applicable to the US courts is a common law doctrine called persuasive precedent. The reason it is
applicable to the US courts because they are based in common law. In any case, external facts such as scholarship, treatises, obiter dicta, dissenting opinions, agreements and foreign and domestic case law from lower and superior courts can be used by the bench in their decision. A good legal team will research and present all of the above for judicial consideration. The bench may in some instances, take judicial notice of such facts which may bring them to a favourable ruling for Aboriginal peoples.

Decisions made internationally, will eventually affect US decisions. It always has a trickle down effect. That is the nature of an independent judiciary. Back in 1959, a land claim here would have been impossible to even mount let alone win. Why? Because Indians weren't allowed to hire lawyers. Heck we weren't even allowed to vote for our MPs in a federal elections. Fifty years later, we have a land claims commission, self government agreements and yes, a lot of our land is back under our control and a new land management and resource control agreements. Some like you, might have said back in the 1959, "You are never getting the land back". The Bill of Rights of 1960 certainly changed all that. I've always considered the US to be rather slow on the following the rest of the world... slavery, segregation, death penalties, allied participation, women's rights, human rights etc have taken the US a while to figure it out but they eventually they get it and follow the rest of us. It's only a matter of time before the US gets with the Indigenous rights that the rest of the world is moving towards.

While you may be the Eeyore of powwow.com there are a few of us that make tiny but continuous steps in moving forward with our people and while you refer to us as pipe dreamers, we are actually the people that you bray on about for others to try and emulate.
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:55 AM   #23
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Dont waste your breath talking at characters like zeke.

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Old 02-13-2012, 12:29 PM   #24
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Dont waste your breath talking at characters like zeke.
He's so full of Hootie love and Petino hate. Arkansas could go undefeated for the next 32 games and he'd still be talking aMm.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:31 PM   #25
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1. Were Canada anywhere near as powerful as the United States, you'd have a more clear perspective.
2. "Limited sovereignty." What does that mean? We're NOT equals.
3. That's just the way that it is.

There are lots of land claims -- historical, ongoing, that I've been involved in or otherwise -- that have occurred involving Natives and the Federal government. Allow me to let you in on a secret: unless there's nothing to be had on/under the land, we don't get it back.

And, if/when we do, we're allowed to squat on it as Federal Reserve Land until such time as something valuable is discovered on or under it. Then, we get moved.

I'm glad (completely serious) that Canada is more left leaning than the normal somewhat Capitalist nation and they have been willing to give up stuff they don't actually care about as Utopian visions of Socialist grandeur run rampant across the countryside.

That's not going to fly, here.

Believing so, IS a pipe dream.

U.S. capitalism has given rise to LAWYERS and a vast morass of legalities so complex that it takes MONEY and MORE LAWYERS to get anything done in the USA nowadays.

That is where POWER resides in U.S. capitalism.

The Sioux are being offered a "Lawyer's Solution" to this land ownership legal battle.

Go back to "law" before 1492 to get things right, but we all know the LAWYERS will drag things on until 2092 since the value of the land and underlying resources are "worth" fighting for in the legal system.

The $1.3 billion is a cheap bribe, a drop in the federal bucket.

Excluding Ellsworth Air Force Base, and some of the other "settlements" seems very generous on the part of the Sioux in the present tense, as long as they get the rest of their ancestral lands back, clear and free of all other ownership claims for all perpetuity.

Dang, I'm talking like a lawyer

Well, they are calling the shots, I hope to live to see their victory...or partial victory for the time being.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:36 PM   #26
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Surely there must be someone of Sioux blood that can speak to this issue with some clarity.
I am Lakota, my opinion on this issue is incredibly biased (which was why I originally refrained from commenting). But I believe that the Black Hills should be given back to the Lakota. Those are our ancestrial lands!!!

And to disgrace them by carving the ugly mugs of past presidents... sorry I find that to be a bit of a smack in the face!

This is why I didn't want to comment I get to emotional and crap...

Long story short. I agree with what my people are doing and not taking the money. Do I think that we'll get the Black Hills back? No, but do I think we should disgrace our homeland by taking the money thus officially "selling" it to the government... HECK NO!!!
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:44 PM   #27
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Some things are more important than money
This is VERY true!!!
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:52 PM   #28
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The $1.3 billion is a cheap bribe, a drop in the federal bucket.
It's, also, significantly more than had to be offered and is the most direct opportunity to give Native folks -- if used wisely -- any sort of enhanced future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinkala
And to disgrace them by carving the ugly mugs of past presidents... sorry I find that to be a bit of a smack in the face!
But Crazy Horse is okay? You can't, truly, have it both ways. If one is defacing, they both are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinkala
This is VERY true!!!
Sure. Start with survival. $1.3B gives you the opportunity to reinvent yourself for the future. Not taking it gives you more of the impoverished same.

I guess if you want to call that "survival."

I wouldn't.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:26 AM   #29
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The Black Hills are not for Sale!!!

If you disagree, come to South Dakota and find a Lakota and tell them they should take the money...

I dare you...
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Old 02-14-2012, 10:05 AM   #30
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Sure. Start with survival. $1.3B gives you the opportunity to reinvent yourself for the future. Not taking it gives you more of the impoverished same.

I guess if you want to call that "survival."

I wouldn't.
I realize that that money could do a lot of good. I just can't get over the fact that it would be selling sacred lands.
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Old 02-14-2012, 10:08 AM   #31
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But Crazy Horse is okay? You can't, truly, have it both ways. If one is defacing, they both are.

You're right, don't need him carved into the Black Hills... Cause the Lakota know that he was great!!! My grandma tells me "The Lakota know he was a great warrior and man... we don't need a damn oversized sculpture"...
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Last edited by yaahl; 02-14-2012 at 10:20 AM.. Reason: Mod edit, fixed quote
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:30 PM   #32
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The Black Hills are not for Sale!!!

If you disagree, come to South Dakota and find a Lakota and tell them they should take the money...

I dare you...
1. I've done it, many times.
2. You can't sell what you don't own.

This isn't complicated, you're just in denial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinkala
I realize that that money could do a lot of good. I just can't get over the fact that it would be selling sacred lands.
That are already in another's possession which you've received nothing for? (Well, beyond good cheese and some healthcare.)

I think the primary issue here is one of romanticism which is why so many Natives get all roiled up if/when they perceive someone else try to obtain a piece of it (typically for $$$ which is even more hypocritical).

We are who we are and it is NOT tied to land where we didn't generate, were never destined to remain, and could not -- now -- maintain our "old" way of life on. That is dead. It's not coming back and looking that direction for anything other than general strategic guidance is more than a little foolish.

Even in the old days, when hunting game moved, the tribe followed.

Metaphorically, the prey has moved. Take the $$$ and start a new campaign.

I learned how to speak English in England. That didn't make me a Brit. I learned how to speak Spanish in Guadalajara. That didn't make me Mexican. I am who/what I am by virtue of who/what I am.

Geography doesn't matter. To paraphrase Martin Luther, we're a "church unto ourselves."
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:38 PM   #33
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[QUOTE=Zeke;1514979]1. I've done it, many times.
2. You can't sell what you don't own.

This isn't complicated, you're just in denial.


We Don't Own the Land, the Land Owns Us, theres no denial in that, get it through your head, money is evil, just because you've given up doesn't mean others have...

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Old 02-14-2012, 12:43 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by IyanHoks'ila View Post
We Don't Own the Land, the Land Owns Us, get it through your head, money is evil, just because you've given up doesn't mean others have...
And herein lies the weakness of the unthinking.

1. $$$ is not evil.
2. Refusing to grow is "giving up."

Sure, some evil things have been done in the name of money, just as -- I'd bet -- some blood was spilled in the past over hunting ground.

You're just romanticizing the past and being unwilling to learn, think and grow.

Today's society is no better, or worse, than before the white man arrived on these shores. What is different is what must be accomplished to thrive in it.

GROW UP.
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:53 PM   #35
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IMHO the Sioux are not taking the money, because that would validate the federal govt 'deal', which was forced upon them.

I think the Black Hills may be returned to them someday. I don't see why not. They could just make a reservation boundary and let all the land owners keep their plots and give all the federal land to the tribes.
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:59 PM   #36
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I have no romantic views about living the old ways, I see a future where my people are in control of their own lands and generating revenue from those lands, through farming, ranching, property tax, collecting taxes within the boundaries, to use for the people, create industry, support education, support health care, all the things that go along with it.

Whats the saying, arguing with a fool, from a distance people can't tell who is who, so with that, just know what ever is said, Lakota people just are not going to take the money, it just that simple...
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:13 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
1. I've done it, many times.
2. You can't sell what you don't own.

This isn't complicated, you're just in denial.



That are already in another's possession which you've received nothing for? (Well, beyond good cheese and some healthcare.)

I think the primary issue here is one of romanticism which is why so many Natives get all roiled up if/when they perceive someone else try to obtain a piece of it (typically for $$$ which is even more hypocritical).

We are who we are and it is NOT tied to land where we didn't generate, were never destined to remain, and could not -- now -- maintain our "old" way of life on. That is dead. It's not coming back and looking that direction for anything other than general strategic guidance is more than a little foolish.

Even in the old days, when hunting game moved, the tribe followed.

Metaphorically, the prey has moved. Take the $$$ and start a new campaign.

I learned how to speak English in England. That didn't make me a Brit. I learned how to speak Spanish in Guadalajara. That didn't make me Mexican. I am who/what I am by virtue of who/what I am.

Geography doesn't matter. To paraphrase Martin Luther, we're a "church unto ourselves."
Wrong. Native Americans were America's landlords, every "newcomer" should have signed a lease to be a settler on Native lands.

Instead the Native land was stolen, and then sold to settlers, with a new legal title of ownership (enforced by the conquering government).

Dang, if Natives started charging even a modest property tax over their "former" ancestral lands...
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:15 PM   #38
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IMHO the Sioux are not taking the money, because that would validate the federal govt 'deal', which was forced upon them.
I see your point but the most significant method of validation is who has the land. It's NOT the Lakota.

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I think the Black Hills may be returned to them someday. I don't see why not.
Because there is, may be or could be something there that the Feds want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IyanHoks'ila
I see a future where my people are in control of their own lands and generating revenue from those lands, through farming, ranching, property tax, collecting taxes within the boundaries, to use for the people, create industry, support education, support health care, all the things that go along with it.
You can't do that without having land (it won't be the Black Hills) or educating people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IyanHoks'ila
Lakota people just are not going to take the money, it just that simple...
Wrong.

To ever do what you're hoping will occur, they'll have to. It is inevitable.
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:15 PM   #39
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IMHO the Sioux are not taking the money, because that would validate the federal govt 'deal', which was forced upon them.

I think the Black Hills may be returned to them someday. I don't see why not. They could just make a reservation boundary and let all the land owners keep their plots and give all the federal land to the tribes.
To get the Black Hills back? That would be a dream come true. I'd like to think that someday the Black Hills will be given back... I just have my doubts... But hey, yknow, it could happen :)
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:18 PM   #40
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Wrong. Native Americans were America's landlords, every "newcomer" should have signed a lease to be a settler on Native lands.

Instead the Native land was stolen, and then sold to settlers, with a new legal title of ownership (enforced by the conquering government).

Dang, if Natives started charging even a modest property tax over their "former" ancestral lands...
I have no issue with your point but you do realize we can't change or do anything about that, right?

I do find it humorous -- not pointing any fingers at you -- when folks go all "nobody owns the land" then become gung-ho about reparations.

You can't have it both ways...
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