Register Groups Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Forum Home - Go Back > General > Native Life > Native Issues PBS NEWS - Why the Sioux are refusing $1.3B PBS NEWS - Why the Sioux are refusing $1.3B

Reply LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-23-2012, 03:32 AM   #81
outnumbered
 
comadre's Avatar
 
Items 49 AccessElephantCakePresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
comadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond repute
comadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond reputecomadre has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: among my family.
Posts: 1,768
Credits: 40,630.70
Savings: 0.00
Perhaps there's stuff in here for the Indigenous to work with?

http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/...s/DRIPS_en.pdf
comadre is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 02-23-2012, 06:36 AM   #82
Sg̱aaga g̱uu hla.
 
yaahl's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestElephantGuitarPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
yaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond repute
yaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 2,790
Credits: 42,587.55
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by comadre View Post
Perhaps there's stuff in here for the Indigenous to work with?

http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/...s/DRIPS_en.pdf
According to Zeke, global declarations such as a UN's is merely a suggestion to the US government. And as I have said, while the US may see Indigenous rights as a non-contender, its trading and economic partners see it as important enough to resolve on their own turf and will expect the US to do the same.

However that said, the US has demonstrated they are a little behind the times when it comes to moving forward as the rest of the world has done... even today while many member states of NATO have females in combat roles and have done so for a decade or so, the US is only just starting to move in that direction (this month actually). We have also seen same sex marriage debated, rejected and now becoming legal in so many states and countries. So change is coming and Zeke, while he ridicules others for maintaining their position that culture does not need to change, has demonstrated in this thread that he is also of the same cloth as the very ones he ridicules.

What he neglects to take note of is that while today, the courts are stymied to resolve the land claim by simply giving back the land, it does not mean that in the coming years that a legal remedy will be found to be able to meet the needs of this case. Overturning a precedent is not unheard of in law and all it will take is a means by which the court can do so. If he were to study the jurisprudence on Native law, he'd see that the Sioux aren't so much pipe dreamers but folks that are waiting for that legal moment to enable their case to be resolved in their favour. That's the beauty of an independent judiciary - they can act apart/above from political will.

Zeke would have us believe by his arguments that the US is so great a power that no matter what the rest of the world does with respect to Indigenous rights, the US will hold out. Again, he neglects to see that even superpowers are not immune to change... look at what is left of the old adversary, the USSR.
__________________
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein

I can see the wheel turning but the Hamster appears to be dead.
yaahl is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 02-23-2012, 01:15 PM   #83
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
while he ridicules others for maintaining their position that culture does not need to change, has demonstrated in this thread that he is also of the same cloth as the very ones he ridicules.
You know what? That's an exceedingly valid point. How, on the one hand, can I espouse that Native culture changes whilst NOT believing that it (Federal change) could occur in this case?

Seriously, that's VERY good.

But you're missing the point. Federal culture has already changed as they're bothering to offer $$$.

So, yes, Federal "culture" and attitudes are malleable: but not to the point of the Black Hills being turned over. That's just not going to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
What he neglects to take note of is that while today, the courts are stymied to resolve the land claim by simply giving back the land, it does not mean that in the coming years that a legal remedy will be found to be able to meet the needs of this case.
The needs HAVE been met, the deed is done. That nobody comes to pick up the check doesn't make it any less so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
Zeke would have us believe by his arguments that the US is so great a power that no matter what the rest of the world does with respect to Indigenous rights, the US will hold out. Again, he neglects to see that even superpowers are not immune to change... look at what is left of the old adversary, the USSR.
1. We do so with nearly everything else.
2. The USSR was never a true superpower (and you know it).
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 02-23-2012, 02:21 PM   #84
On The Rocks
 
AmigoKumeyaay's Avatar
 
Items ElephantTreasure ChestPresentPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
AmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond repute
AmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond reputeAmigoKumeyaay has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: On The Road mostly, Retired Vagabond
Posts: 5,547
Blog Entries: 2
Credits: 99,523.66
Savings: 1.00
Don't start an argument over superpowers. Who was at Yalta at end of WWII?

Who did we fight proxy wars with in VietNam, Afghanistan, Central America, CUBA (Cuban Missile Crisis?), Poland's Solidarity Movement, and many other situations around the planet.





Spotted Tail refused the $25,000 offered by Congress for the Black Hills. Spotted Tail even stated the land is Lakota.

The Fort Laramie TREATIES of 1851 and 1868 were both violated afterward. The U.S. Army originally intervened, trying to prevent the white Goldrushers from entering, but gave up due to political & social pressure from greedy whites.

The U.S. Govt then began a series of "negotiations" to SWINDLE the Lakota out of their lands (Black Hills).

The Natives that did not agree to give up ancestral lands and live at the agency were labeled as renegades, and U.S. military actions were ordered against them. When the Natives resisted and fought against the Army, they were labeled as hostiles.

Custer getting himself and his troops killed unfortunately turned even more pressure to conquer the Plains tribes. The white anger boiled over, and eventually the Massacre at Wounded Knee happened, revenge over Custer's defeat. Nobody was worried about committing War Crimes back then.

This whole process was slowed down by the U.S. Civil War...but the goal from Washington, D.C was there all along: shove the Indians away from the valuable lands, keep them locked up on worthless reservations. Manifest Destiny.

U.S. Congress needs to do the right thing here.
__________________
AmigoKumeyaay is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 02-23-2012, 02:32 PM   #85
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmigoKumeyaay View Post
U.S. Congress needs to do the right thing here.
Yes!

Offer a settlement.

Oh, wait...

Personally, the Feds have already admitted their role. The history is known. Nobody is disputing folks were shafted. $$$ is on the table.

But the Black Hills aren't.

It's just not a viable alternative.
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 02-23-2012, 02:45 PM   #86
Banned
 
Items Tree
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
rezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond repute
rezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: in constant conflict with myself
Posts: 493
Credits: 13,536.73
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post

Personally, the Feds have already admitted their role. The history is known. Nobody is disputing folks were shafted. $$$ is on the table.

But the Black Hills aren't.

It's just not a viable alternative.
Admitting you were wrong to take something that didn't belong to you, and not giving it back isn't much of an apology. And throwing peanuts at a cash cow doesn't make right either. It's like saying I know it was wrong to steal your one of a kind gold watch, but here's 5 bucks out of the profit I got for selling it. I may be wrong here, but maybe the problem is that you are not personalizing the issue, what if it was your property, your house, better yet, your families property, maybe granpa and grandma's place, that you grew up visiting, just one day the city came and took it away and said, well there's a small amount of money compared to what it's really worth, we know it was wrong, but take it and we'll bury the hatchet. (If you'll excuse the lack of a better term). Then I might also wonder, is that the same opinion as what your elders hold, in your community, especially if it were their land, or would that be archaic and ignorant?
rezrazed is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 02-23-2012, 04:19 PM   #87
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezrazed View Post
Admitting you were wrong to take something that didn't belong to you, and not giving it back isn't much of an apology.
I completely concur but it is common practice, no? In most cases, reparations aren't even offered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezrazed View Post
I may be wrong here, but maybe the problem is that you are not personalizing the issue
Valid perception as I try pretty hard to NOT personalize issues as it clouds judgment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rezrazed View Post
what if it was your property, your house, better yet, your families property, maybe granpa and grandma's place, that you grew up visiting, just one day the city came and took it away and said, well there's a small amount of money compared to what it's really worth, we know it was wrong, but take it and we'll bury the hatchet.
Do you think my tribe was originally in Oklahoma?

NONE of this is new, nor is the pattern.

Do you think Manhattan is going to be returned?

Same argument, yet it sounds ridiculous, right?

But all kinds of pipe dreamers believe a larger area, worth more, is just going to be ceded?

NOT HAPPENING.

We lost. Get over it. Adapt.
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 02-23-2012, 04:35 PM   #88
Sg̱aaga g̱uu hla.
 
yaahl's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestElephantGuitarPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
yaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond repute
yaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond reputeyaahl has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 2,790
Credits: 42,587.55
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
You know what? That's an exceedingly valid point. How, on the one hand, can I espouse that Native culture changes whilst NOT believing that it (Federal change) could occur in this case?

Seriously, that's VERY good.

But you're missing the point. Federal culture has already changed as they're bothering to offer $$$.

So, yes, Federal "culture" and attitudes are malleable: but not to the point of the Black Hills being turned over. That's just not going to happen.



The needs HAVE been met, the deed is done. That nobody comes to pick up the check doesn't make it any less so.



1. We do so with nearly everything else.
2. The USSR was never a true superpower (and you know it).

Never say never Zeke, way back when my grandmothers lost their status because they a) went to nursing school b) joined the military in 1942... the Feds were adamant that they would never be considered Indian Women again... as far as the feds were concerned, it was a done deal.. over.. no going back.

Subsequent court cases during the 60s and 70s by Native women trying to get their status back were all met with the same brick wall of the feds.

Fast forward to 1982 when the then Prime Minister, Trudeau harped on and on about the Charter of Rights and Freedoms...all of a sudden government departments had less than 3 years to repeal, fix or deal with Charter violation on existing legislation. Indian Affairs was crapping itself over the enfranchisement policies running right up a Charter violation - since it set out that Aboriginal rights can not be abrogated or derogated under the Charter. That meant ... a fast ball called Bill C31 to fix the endless stream of enfranchisements that had been occurring since 1878. Now there is a new case before the Supreme Court that is going to force a change yet again... extending status to the grandchildren of the Bill C 31 women.

The feds never saw that one coming when they decided to repatriate the Constitution back to Canada. Same went for Ron Sparrow. folks told him he was nuts to go up against the Feds over traditional fishing rights. He just keep on going all the way to the Supreme Court until they gave a landmark decision that woke the rest of Canada up to Indigenous rights... Federal politics is always changing - and often it changes more than once...

Just because the Feds think that putting a sum on money on the table absolves them of any further actions.. that isn't the way the law works. If that was all it took was for the defendant to slap some cash on the table.. we wouldn't need a mountain of jurisprudence on remedies to fix problems.

The Sioux are quite correct to refuse any cash offer. Just as any litigant in an insurance case, negligence case, malpractise case or civil action can refuse a cash settlement from a defendant. The court however, as I said is tied to what is available to them to offer as a remedy. All it's going to take is a very brave justice to throw out the current remedies and go for a land surrender.

Really,. it's not that scary ... we've been doing it here for years.... the white folks get all up in arms but at the end of the day, they don't really care who gets the taxes or who is their "landlord" as long as they don't have to give up their land/property. Ask the folks up in Nunavut - they now have Inuit government that is in a 39 million dollar surplus... there's a lot of happy people up there - they are getting a tax break.
__________________
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Robert A. Heinlein

I can see the wheel turning but the Hamster appears to be dead.
yaahl is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 02-23-2012, 04:35 PM   #89
Banned
 
Items Tree
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
rezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond repute
rezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond reputerezrazed has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: in constant conflict with myself
Posts: 493
Credits: 13,536.73
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I completely concur but it is common practice, no? In most cases, reparations aren't even offered.
True!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Valid perception as I try pretty hard to NOT personalize issues as it clouds judgment.
But not always, sometimes is help to personalize to truly see clearly. Kind of the walking a mile in my shoes thing Eh?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Do you think my tribe was originally in Oklahoma?

NONE of this is new, nor is the pattern.

Do you think Manhattan is going to be returned?

Same argument, yet it sounds ridiculous, right?
LOL No!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
But all kinds of pipe dreamers believe a larger area, worth more, is just going to be ceded?

NOT HAPPENING.

We lost. Get over it. Adapt.
I think this is where I have a hard time agreeing with you, where you see it a pipe dreaming I see it as having hope, something that is one of the few things,(gonna sound all after school special here, sorry), many Natives have left. In this case there is an open admission of wrong, YET, they have not taken their hands out of the cookie jar. Add the growing amounts of rights and liberties afforded to aboriginals all around the world, adn maybe, just maybe, it might happen here. When you have so little and someone wants to take that away too, it might be more than just wishful thinking.

You know they say that sometimes hero's are just people who were cold enough, hungry enough, or just didn't have anything left to lose. Some how I think that might apply here too.
rezrazed is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lawsuit would let Sioux take money for Black Hills Historian Native Issues 160 07-08-2009 07:47 PM
Announcing the Native Sun News Historian Native Issues 0 03-13-2009 10:23 AM
John McCain on Native American Policy Historian Native Issues 88 11-10-2008 01:44 PM
CTV News Launches National Aboriginal Internship Program Blackbear Native Issues 0 04-14-2006 05:28 AM

    

Join the online community forum celebrating Native American Culture, Pow Wows, tribes, music, art, and history.

Join PowWows.com Today!

Your Guide to Native American Pow Wows Since 1996

Register For Free

Enjoy the benefits of being a member of PowWows.com!

Join our Native American online community focused on Pow Wow singing, dancing, crafts, Native American music, Native American videos, and more.

Add your Pow Wow to our Calendar

Share your photos and videos

Play games, enter contests, and much more!






New Threads

Pow Wow Calendar Search

 
Month: Year:

Location:

Videos

Featured Articles

Dance Styles

Crafts

Gallery