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Old 06-09-2008, 06:30 AM   #121
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When a white guy in NJ knows who to go to if he wants feathers.....thats bad.

Thats why Im a grass dancer, (other than because I love it) no feather involved. And the wife has a macaw fan and a 'touched up' goose feather fan.

Its not worth the hassle, the government take too much of my money already, why give them the chance to take more.
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:05 PM   #122
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Smile I agree

My daughter is learning to jingledress dance and was given her first jingle dress.

The individual that I spoke of prior has been back to court and I haven't made a follow up on what happend with that yet. This individual is known all over the powwow circuit and prowls on young volunable woman. This individual is not welcome at powwows in this territory as he was yelled at when dancing in the arbour about his involvement with the eagles that were slaughtered. They call him tainted feathers, and is told to stay away from young girls.

I, myself, have put myself in this person's path and am enduring the consequences of that. I am healing and know that I am not any reflection of this individuals choices in life.

My prayers are for peace and happiness to all, even him.
My favorite quote is

"Nothing so strong as gentleness, nothing so gentle as real strength"

speaks for itself
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Old 10-22-2008, 04:05 PM   #123
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I guess Eddie Benally is an idiot. Urbanization of America has destroyed millions upon millions of acres of wildlife habitat and it has caused the extinction of animals either in certain areas or in the entire continental U. S.

Add to that the fact that many farmers and rancher STILL believe they have a right to shoot eagles to keep them from stealing chickens or killing and feasting on new born livestock, and you have the real cause of the decimation of the eagle population.

On top of that, pollution has been responsible for infertility, or eggs that have shells which are too thin to keep from being broken before the young developing inside are old enough to hatch, and the finger points elsewhere.

Where I live there was a white man who found it amusing to use eagles for target practice until I turned him in. A significant number of the whites out here refer to them as "rats with wings".

There was a major construction project out here that was allowed to destroy the nests of about half a dozen mated pairs of eagles and the construction workers complained about being dive bombed by the eagles. The eagles out here never, and I mean NEVER attack humans unless their nests are threatened.

And yet people point to a handful of idiots who are native and say, "They're the ones who are killing all the eagles! It's their fault and nobody else's!" Yeah, right.
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:10 AM   #124
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(Photo courtesy Carol Berry)
The Fish and Wildlife Service stresses this year that possessors of eagle feather fans like this one should be able to show tribal identification in order to avoid problems, but the agency says the emphasis is on the illegal killing of eagles for illegal commercialization rather than on the use by Natives of eagle feathers or parts for religious or cultural purposes.


Tribal identification should accompany eagle feathers, a federal agency says
By Carol Berry, ICT correspondent
Indian Country Today - 10 April 2009
Tribal identification should accompany eagle feathers, a federal agency says | Indian Country Today | Archive

DENVER – Powwow season is arriving, replete with fans, bustles and other regalia, but dancers and others may want to carry tribal IDs or Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood to avoid any problems concerning eagle feathers or parts, according to the Fish and Wildlife Service.

This year, the FWS is advising dancers or those using eagle feathers for other purposes to keep documentation of Native ancestry with them to avoid being questioned about their possession of the eagle material.

At present, eagle carcasses or parts are obtained after a lengthy wait by enrolled members of federally recognized tribes from the National Eagle Repository near Denver or they can be gifted from one Native person to another, but they cannot be from illegal kills and cannot be sold.

Only a handful of permits to kill eagles for cultural/religious purposes have been issued by the FWS, and nearly always to tribal nations.

In addition to tribal ID, Steve Oberholtzer, a FWS special agent, said March 20 that a CDIB, since its issued by the BIA, might also be an acceptable means of proving Native ancestry.

He was asked about the requirement after some visitors to Denver March Powwow were concerned they could be stopped and their eagle regalia seized by federal agents, after a spate of recent arrests elsewhere.

Three Yakama Nation members from Washington and a Kiowa from Oklahoma were arrested recently for killing bald and golden eagles and selling their feathers or parts. Other, unverifiable rumors are that the FBI is conducting searches and seizures in Oklahoma, Arizona and elsewhere.

Generally, it is the FWS, not the FBI, that conducts investigations about the take of eagles for illegal commercialization, Oberholtzer said, and FWS special agents conducted the recent arrests of the four men for violation of the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act.

He stressed that the FWS is “aware that the right to possess eagle feathers is very important for their (Indian) culture and religion” and is “reluctant to take enforcement action” unless there is a clear indication illegal commercialization or non-Native possession of feathers or parts is taking place.

Those with eagle feathers would generally have the benefit of the doubt in terms of having eagle permit papers with them or of having to prove that the specific feathers or parts matched those on the permit issued by the FWS for lawful possession, he said.

But Oberholtzer acknowledged that, at least theoretically, people who may not appear to be of Native descent might be stopped and asked for tribal documentation and paperwork for eagle possession purposes.

“We attempt to ID the person, and take some steps to assess whether they are Native American, and document what is going on,” he said, emphasizing that the key points of agency concern are whether the eagle feathers or parts are legally acquired and if the possessor is Native American.

In the past, even Sun Dance leaders have expressed concern about the possibility of participants being asked for their eagle permits.

*******

What's your opinion?
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:51 AM   #125
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if they have to ask then they half to ask. I would rather someone stop me for a 10 second discushion and possibly even lose my feathers (although I would probly cry about it for the rest of the event) then allow something so important to me and my beliefs die out.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:04 PM   #126
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You have a great point, it is how I was raised to think

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezbah View Post
Didn't get to see the article....

But what happened to the ole....feathers are earned not bought....??

I have always raised my lil one to honor the fact that each of the feathers he has received or given is that he earned them. We have been blessed upon receiving numerous amounts of feathers, however, I know traditionally we're never to buy them. Its like dancing, its suppose to be a earned right, not just something you do cuz you get up one day and 'feel like dancing'. I have also taught my son to give some of the feathers he has earned to those who need them. I heard wind of a very close friend son's feather dropped as he was dancing, knowing he was from a tradish family, and how he has regarding my lil one as his own brother. My lil one gifted him with another pair of feathers as he knew he'll need them at another time.

I have always known my lil one will be gifted with many many feathers but I have always taught him to give things to those who need it. If we see fit, it will be done.

I have also known some dancers who are known for 'supplying' eagle parts they have shot or hunted down. It is sad and I don't respect those who do. But its out there, if you do receive feathers, get it from the Dept of Game/Wildlife or family members, even if you do have to wait 4 or so years, good things come to those who wait.

Just the way I see it, feathers are earned and if you live life in a good way, you'll recieve them. Just like dancing, its earned.
Hi I think your post was well said. Although I have known elders who have requested feathers from the Dept of game /wildlife for sacred reasons using them in ceremonies. Any thing mother earth has given birth too is precious. Our ancestors never wasted anything. Chi Miigwich
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:30 PM   #127
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I wonder about that too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by WocusWoman View Post
I'm interested to know where you can be 1/8th and legally obtain eagle feathers? Is it one of those tribes that accepts very low blood quantum or what. As far as I know you must be 1/4th and enrolled in a Federally Recognized Tribe, to obtain the feathers and receive a legal permit to have them. I know that they can be given to another family member as long as they are native also. I'm just curious that is all. This is what is wrong, too many white people making claims on the little amount of birds the eagle repository receives each year. I betcha if the govt. really investigated all those claims, they'd find a lot of bogus ndns in their paperwork.
I wonder about that too how man are given out to non members, My husband when out leeching or when we rice we find feathers.
As far as blamming it on pow wows I don't entirely agree. Cause most of us inherit our feathers or are given our feathers, Is there an actual report that support these claims?
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:42 PM   #128
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Yes we get ID'd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Historian View Post

(Photo courtesy Carol Berry)
The Fish and Wildlife Service stresses this year that possessors of eagle feather fans like this one should be able to show tribal identification in order to avoid problems, but the agency says the emphasis is on the illegal killing of eagles for illegal commercialization rather than on the use by Natives of eagle feathers or parts for religious or cultural purposes.


Tribal identification should accompany eagle feathers, a federal agency says
By Carol Berry, ICT correspondent
Indian Country Today - 10 April 2009
Tribal identification should accompany eagle feathers, a federal agency says | Indian Country Today | Archive

DENVER – Powwow season is arriving, replete with fans, bustles and other regalia, but dancers and others may want to carry tribal IDs or Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood to avoid any problems concerning eagle feathers or parts, according to the Fish and Wildlife Service.

This year, the FWS is advising dancers or those using eagle feathers for other purposes to keep documentation of Native ancestry with them to avoid being questioned about their possession of the eagle material.

At present, eagle carcasses or parts are obtained after a lengthy wait by enrolled members of federally recognized tribes from the National Eagle Repository near Denver or they can be gifted from one Native person to another, but they cannot be from illegal kills and cannot be sold.

Only a handful of permits to kill eagles for cultural/religious purposes have been issued by the FWS, and nearly always to tribal nations.

In addition to tribal ID, Steve Oberholtzer, a FWS special agent, said March 20 that a CDIB, since its issued by the BIA, might also be an acceptable means of proving Native ancestry.

He was asked about the requirement after some visitors to Denver March Powwow were concerned they could be stopped and their eagle regalia seized by federal agents, after a spate of recent arrests elsewhere.

Three Yakama Nation members from Washington and a Kiowa from Oklahoma were arrested recently for killing bald and golden eagles and selling their feathers or parts. Other, unverifiable rumors are that the FBI is conducting searches and seizures in Oklahoma, Arizona and elsewhere.

Generally, it is the FWS, not the FBI, that conducts investigations about the take of eagles for illegal commercialization, Oberholtzer said, and FWS special agents conducted the recent arrests of the four men for violation of the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act.

He stressed that the FWS is “aware that the right to possess eagle feathers is very important for their (Indian) culture and religion” and is “reluctant to take enforcement action” unless there is a clear indication illegal commercialization or non-Native possession of feathers or parts is taking place.

Those with eagle feathers would generally have the benefit of the doubt in terms of having eagle permit papers with them or of having to prove that the specific feathers or parts matched those on the permit issued by the FWS for lawful possession, he said.

But Oberholtzer acknowledged that, at least theoretically, people who may not appear to be of Native descent might be stopped and asked for tribal documentation and paperwork for eagle possession purposes.

“We attempt to ID the person, and take some steps to assess whether they are Native American, and document what is going on,” he said, emphasizing that the key points of agency concern are whether the eagle feathers or parts are legally acquired and if the possessor is Native American.

In the past, even Sun Dance leaders have expressed concern about the possibility of participants being asked for their eagle permits.

*******

What's your opinion?
I have to agree, what other way isw there?
Whether it is for eagle feathers or gathering, hunting and fishing the DNR is there checking. Me and my husband were spear fishing and were asked for our ID's. We carry our ID's because they have the right to search your car. So if you have anything in your possession that requires ID it's a good thing to carrie it with you. I see it as protection too. As somone stated something about stolen feathers. That's really wrong, and it happens all the time at pow wow's.

Last edited by LaughingWaterWI; 07-01-2009 at 03:45 PM..
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Old 09-10-2009, 01:32 PM   #129
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I have to agree with the article....simple theory of Supply & Demand.

Just stop and think, when you're at at pow-wow, look at all the eagle feathers that are there. Look at the huge traditional (not really traditional but you know what I mean) bustles, fancy dancers that have eagle bustles X2. I've seen some dancers with so many feathers....I swear they had more feathers than an eagle does itself, reminded me of those "ghillie" camo suits. Just ridiculous.

Now think, the last time you were at a Stomp Dance how many feathers did you see? The last time you were at a Peyote meeting how many feathers did you see? The last time you were at a sweat how many feathers did you see? The last time you were at a Sun Dance how many feathers did you see?

Even if you want to say "there's more people at a pow-wow", the percentage of number of feathers to people is still the greatest at a pow-wow....compared to any of the previously mentioned activities.

So yes, I must agree with the article, pow-wows are driving demand. Too many of our people have adopted the white tendencies of greed and impatience and resort to "black market" feather dealers who deal in poached feathers instead of waiting on the repository or gifting. I also feel this is directly linked to competition pow-wows and huge prize monies....but that's JMO.



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Old 09-10-2009, 02:30 PM   #130
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Did you see this article:
http://www.powwows.com/gathering/nat...ml#post1338027

Again they argue that Pow Wows are causing more Eagles to be killed.
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Old 09-11-2009, 11:27 AM   #131
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No, I hadn't read that but now I have. Thanks.

Again, I stand firm in my opinion and agree that competition pow-wows are driving eagle feather demand which fuels black market demand which causes poaching of eagles. Again, simple theory of Supply & Demand.

Whole golden eagles sell for up to $1,200 and immature golden eagle central tail feathers for up to $200, the FWS said, with prices driven up in part by the lure of prize money from powwow dance contests, judged partially by the quality of contestants’ regalia.

I actually thought the next big battle regarding eagle feathers was going to be ...is pow-wow dancing considered "religious purposes" or not?


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Traditions.....keep them and keep them sacred!

I am NOT Indian. I have never been to India, nor has any of my family before me! I have met these people from India, of whom you speak, and I am nothing like them. Why do you call me an Indian?

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Old 09-14-2009, 09:07 PM   #132
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The old USFWS permit/repository app used to ask what the purpose of the feathers was (as in for what ceremony do you need feathers) but they stopped that because it was determined that they were not in a position to judge what is religious, and what is required for a particular ceremony (and do we really want someone from BIA designating what is needed for a ceremony, because eventually one requirement would be to complete an R-21742- "Form to Prepare for Religion" or some other piece of unnecessary bureaucracy)
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Old 09-15-2009, 06:50 PM   #133
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I noticed that. I remember the first form I filled out was different from the second one.



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Traditions.....keep them and keep them sacred!

I am NOT Indian. I have never been to India, nor has any of my family before me! I have met these people from India, of whom you speak, and I am nothing like them. Why do you call me an Indian?

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Old 05-25-2010, 01:48 PM   #134
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Old 06-22-2010, 10:33 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Mato Mahe View Post

I actually thought the next big battle regarding eagle feathers was going to be ...is pow-wow dancing considered "religious purposes" or not?

.
Of course Pow wow dancing is religious, if the dancing is done for that reason. Moving to and feeling the heartbeat of the drum is part of native spirituality.

At the same time, when it done for a prize and not for spiritual reasons, everything changes. And sadly, this happens too often at pow wow. I've seen lots of people won't dance unless its competition.
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Old 07-30-2010, 10:24 PM   #136
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Father Eagle, Brother Turkey

For those who do not know me yet, my name is Starr, and I am new here, so I would like to begin by saying "Hello". I find this thread interesting, as I am just beginning to learn about my Dine' heritage, and don't know the first thing about feathers and their significance to my People. But I know what they mean to me. Symbols, even those considered most Holy, are still just that, symbols. It is a terrible thing that, in these troubled times of ours, the very things we have used as part of our Faith are now growing scarce, regulated, and rationed. Perhaps it is a sign that we need our Faith and the Old Ways more than ever. Our connection to the Earth, our Mother is something other races have used to alienate us, exploit and patronize us. And yet, it is that very connection that draws wonder, hope and fascination from them as well. I have, on an altar I have made for my house, four feathers. They are turkey feathers I found in my path as I walked on my fiance's family land in North Carolina. They are not rare, or endangered. They are as common as dandelion fluff. But they are wild and beautiful, and were sent to me when I needed them most. Two are large, and I found them together. Shed at the same time, the same feather from each wing. The other are smaller, equal in size, also in my path as I walked. A feather for myself, my Man, and both my children. When I have been up all night with worries of my family and our future swimming in my head, I look to these feathers, and am reminded of my love for them, and find peace. The Spirits send us many signs and portents, it is a human quality to assign meaning to them. My Carolina turkey feathers may not mean much to other Dine', though the manner in which I found them might. And I cannot imagine a time when it could be said that feathers such as mine were no longer attainable. That I would have to write my name on a list and wait, or risk jail or a fine for simply possessing them. But that is what has happened and is happening for many Native People, their Eagles were once my Turkey. There is no one question or solution. And my heart goes out to those who are trapped between modern species conservation, and spiritual tradition. In my heart and mind, they are one and the same.
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Old 08-19-2010, 05:49 PM   #137
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What will they do?,
what can they do?,
take our feathers away from us next?.
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Old 09-14-2010, 01:14 PM   #138
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if they have to ask then they half to ask. I would rather someone stop me for a 10 second discushion and possibly even lose my feathers (although I would probly cry about it for the rest of the event) then allow something so important to me and my beliefs die out.
i agree with that but i also am half way not agreeing bc we shouldnt kill no animal without eating and using all its parts we waste enuf in this country
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:04 PM   #139
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Agreed, I recall being taught "never kill unless your going to eat what you kill or you are defending yourself or your family."

My tribal identification & feather permit papers, I never leave home without them!!


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Traditions.....keep them and keep them sacred!

I am NOT Indian. I have never been to India, nor has any of my family before me! I have met these people from India, of whom you speak, and I am nothing like them. Why do you call me an Indian?

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Old 01-12-2011, 09:53 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svnoyi Gvtsanoste View Post
Of course Pow wow dancing is religious, if the dancing is done for that reason.

Svnoyi,

I have to disagree with you. I don't believe powwow dancing is religious. I do not think there is a said "Powwow Religion?" Powwows are too new with the oldest around 150 years old.

However, there are elements of spirituality at powwows including prayer, the use of eagle feathers and wearing of personal objects.

From what I have witnessed, powwows are generally social in intent and open to the public. People at powwows laugh, joke, tease and cut up. Drama occurs too.*L

Powwows are different than true tribal spiritual ceremonies.
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