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Old 05-20-2008, 09:49 PM   #21
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Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manincassa, Capt Tom, Isaac, Harry, blind tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack, Indians being bought before the court for stealing Hogs. , Ordered that their Guns be taken away from them till they are ready to depart of this county, they having declared their intentions to depart this colony within a week.".11 On pages 309-312 of Orange County Court Record book the above named men individually put up security.11


That John collins is my family.

The same Collins family that was in Granville when the Saponi was recorded as being in Granville.

Who else is my family.

Cate Collings was called an "Indian Woman" servant of William Gibbs
when she was summoned by the March 1765 Hyde County Court [Minutes
II:113].

Her daughter was born in Granville NC 1738.

Who else is my family.

John3 Jeffries, born say 1718, was called John Jefferson when he was granted 84 acres on Cattail Swamp in Brunswick County adjoining John Persons on 12 March 1739 [Patents 18:553-4]. He was called Jefferson in the early land records but called John Jeffres/ Jefferis when he voted in Brunswick County in June 1748 [DB 3:508, 510]. And he and his family were called Jeffries when they voted in Greensville County in 1792 and in the land records in the late 1790s and thereafter. On 26 May 1748 he purchased 228 acres in Brunswick County bounded by the north side of Cattail Creek from John Person of Isle of Wight County, heir to John Person of Surry County who was granted the land in 1726 [DB 3:447; Greensville DB 1:450]. He was among the freeholders of Brunswick County ordered to work on a road under Littleberry Robertson on 27 March 1759 [Orders 1757-9, 314]. His land on Cattail Creek was on the west side of Fountain Creek in the part of Brunswick County which became Greensville County in 1781. He was taxable in Meherrin Parish, Brunswick County, on 2 persons over the age of twenty-one and 1 person under the age of twenty-one in 1785 and free from personal tax in 1786 [Personal Property Tax List 1782-98, frames 135, 159]. He was called John Jeffries on 28 June 1787 when the Greensville County court discharged him from paying taxes (due to old age) starting from the year 1786 [Orders 1781-9, 332]. He was taxable in Meherrin Parish, Greensville County, from 1787 to 1796: taxable on (his son) Nathan Jeffries and 3 horses in 1789, taxable on a horse in 1796 [Personal Property Tax List 1782-1850, frames 43, 65, 84, 109, 138, 189, 202]. John and his wife Judy Jefferson made a deed of gift of 55 acres to their son Simon in 1796 and made deeds of sale to (their sons?) Andrew, Simon, Nathan, and John in Greensville County between 1789 and 1798. They sold 50 acres of land adjoining their land in Greensville County to Andrew Jeffers on 4 February 1789, sold 45 acres on Person's Branch adjoining William Robinson to John Jeffers, Junior, for 3 pounds on 25 April 1792, and sold 40 acres to Nathan Jeffries for 20 pounds on 23 January 1798. By the terms of the deed Nathan was not to take possession of the land until the death of John Jeffries. On 27 December 1798 John and his wife Judy Jeffries also sold two parcels of land adjoining theirs to Andrew Jeffries, one of 40 acres for 9 pounds and another of 84 acres for 50 pounds [DB 2:487, 498, 505-6, 520, 524]. He may have been the Jefferson who was paid as a witness on 24 August 1799 for William Lanier in the Greensville County suit of William Stewart [Orders 1790-9, 635]. John Jeffries' wife Judy was identified as Judy Lane by their great grandson Parker Jeffries (son of Sally Jeffries) in a Greene County, Ohio court suit in 1841 [Parker Jeffries v. Ankeny]. Judy was probably the granddaughter of Elizabeth Lane who confessed in Surry County, Virginia court on 7 January 1690/1 that she had two "Molato" children by "Nicholas Sessums his Negro Man" [Surry Orders 1682-91, 771, 777]. John's children were

7 i. John5, born say 1745.

8 ii. Andrew/ Drury1, born say 1750.

iii. Shadrack, born say 1754, taxable in Meherrin Parish, Brunswick County, from 1784 to 1787 [Personal Property Tax List 1782-98, frames 91, 136, 170, 204]. He voted in Greensville County on 26 April 1792 [DB 1:450]. He was surety for the 24 July 1794 Greensville County, Virginia marriage bond of (his niece) Grief Jeffries. He was taxable in Meherrin Parish, Greensville County, from 1788 to 1812: [Personal Property Tax List 1782-1850, frames 64, 84, 109, 127, 138, 162, 179, 189, 202, 219, 232, 245, 260, 274, 288, 303, 322, 337, 354, 372, 387, 402, 416, 433]. His 12 May 1812 Greensville County will was proved 12 October the same year. He left all his lands to his wife Sarah and at her death to Mary Jefferson (Jeffries). And he left his property to his wife and at her death to his brother Nathan with one-twelfth to go to Sarah Wadkins (Watkins). His wife Sarah and brother Nathan were executors [WB 2:267-8].

9 iv. Simon, born say 1756.

v. ?Jacob, born say 1758, taxable on his own tithe, 2 horses and 3 cattle in Meherrin Parish, Brunswick County, in 1783 and 1784 [Personal Property Tax List 1782-98, frames 62, 91].

vi. Nathan, born say 1762, taxable on a horse and 3 cattle in Meherrin Parish, Brunswick County, in 1784 [Personal Property Tax List 1782-98, frame 91], married Clary Norton, 23 June 1791 Greensville County bond, Repts Steward surety. He was a taxable in Meherrin Parish, Greensville County, from 1787 to 1827: listed in his father's household in 1787 and 1789, listed as a "Mulatto" in 1813, listed with son Nathan from 1818 to 1820, listed with son Shade in 1822 and 1823, listed with (son?) John in 1825, with William Jeffers in 1827 [Personal Property Tax List 1799-1850, frames 43, 65, 84, 109, 127, 138, 162, 180, 189, 202, 219, 232, 245, 260, 274, 288, 303, 322, 337, 354, 372, 387, 416, 433, 447, 557, 581, 605, 653, 678, 705, 731, 804] and head of a Greensville County household of 9 "free colored" in 1820 [VA:263].

The Jeffries however is Catawba...not Saponi so I do not claim Saponi thru Jeffries.

Who else do I come from....

The Catawba Petty family.

I'm also 1/16th cherokee thru the Yarbrough family

and I have some Creek blood.
The last date i see here is 1820. These records 12 years shy of being 200 years old.

Where is your documentation from 1820 to 2008?

If you know who your family is...then you should know on what road they live on.

ECSN...you are going to have to provide documentation to prove how your current family ties to those records. Such is the case of many tribes seeking state and federal recognition.

Whatever you do, don't start your own tribe and become the 'chief'.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:49 PM   #22
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The documents with the Collins and Saponi information was provided with the reference location below each one.

For Joe's dad, Me and many other Saponi descendants have already proved our descent to these families thru all the proper records, we have the documents which follow our families from the early 1700's all the way to the current date.

Documentation has never been the problem, the problem is some of these tribes in NC which use our ancestor's name refuses to allow Collins, Bowlings, Griffin, and Gibson membership to their tribes when these families have more proof than any other person as being Saponi.

And yes it is true that the tribes which refuse these families membership.....these tribe's ancestors are traced back to tribes which was not Saponi.

It is also true that there is no proof any Saponi stayed in NC. Historically the Saponi went West, North, and South out of NC.

As for you saying whatever I do, do not start my own tribe, well who should start a Saponi tribe? Someone who has no documented proof as being Saponi or someone who has documented proof as being from the Most documented Saponi family?? Should 7 families which are traced back to being called "indians" on the Virginia coast in the heart of Powhatan territory be allowed to start a tribe and call it "Sappony"?
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:08 PM   #23
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Here is some interesting stuff about the name Shepard and epps.

John SHEPPERD, born 10 May 1810, Virginia and wife
Temperance EPPS, born 23 May 1814, North Carolina, and eight of their twelve
children was the 1850 US Census for CASWELL County, NC. The eight children,
all born in PERSON County, NC, were: James Calvin, born 1833; William M.,
born ca. 1835; Abigail Theodocia, born 1838; John Washington, born 1840; Mary
Ann Rebecca, born 1844; Green Madison Franklin Alexander, born 1847; Tilman
Charles and Richard A. (Twins) born 1850. All members of this family were
noted as mulatto.

Halifax County, VA Deed Book 16, Pg. 128 - 6 September 1793 - Indenture in
which Nathaniel EPPS, Moses EPPS, David POWELL Sr, John COMER, Edy EPPS,
Temperance EPPS of the County of Halifax; Ambrose GRESHAM of the county of
Lunenburg; and George REEVES of the county of Wilkes, NC, parties of one part
- LEGATEES of John EPPS, deceased sell to William EPPS for L 100 a certain
tract of land in Halifax Co. on S/S of Banniester River containing 40 acres,
etc. ---Witnesses: Moses DUNKLEY, John DUNKLEY, Henry DUNKLEY, Moore COMER.
Recorded 24 February 1794.

Halifax, County, VA Deed Book 47, Pg. 315 - 30 Dec 1841 - William BAIRD and
Lucy Ann, his wife of the County of Person, NC, sell to William EPPS of
Halifax County, VA for $ 2960 a tract of land, Halifax County on the state
line, East of Mayo Creek, adjoining BAIRDs own line of 592 acres. Certified
before Justices of Person County, NC, and Lucy Ann Baird relinquished her
dower right. Recorded 25 Jan 1842.

Now Lets take a look at Powhatan:
Subtribes constituting the Powhatana are as follows:
Accohanoc, in Accomac County and part of Northampton County. Va.. and probably extending slightly into Maryland.
Accomac, in the southern part of Northampton County, Va. Appomattoc, in Chesterfield County.
Chiskiac, in York County.
Tauxenent, in Fairfax County.

Now lets take a look at Where the Shepard and Epps family was being found before they are found in Person county...Families which would match the Mullatto and Indian descriptions.

SHEPHERD FAMILY
1. Ann Shepherd, born say 1703, was a "Christian white woman" who was presented by the Accomack County, Virginia court for having an illegitimate child. When required to identify the father of her child on 6 June 1721, she told the Accomack County court that it was "Indian Edmund," but on 6 July 1721 she admitted that it was Henry Jackson, "a Mullatto." The court ordered that she be sold for five years [Orders 1719-24, 33]. Her descendants may have been
2 i. James1, born say 1730.
ii. George, head of an Accomack County household of 8 "other free" in 1810 [VA:60].
iii. James2, a "free Negro" taxable in Nansemond County in 1815.

2. James1 Shepherd, born say 1730, (no race indicated) complained to the Granville County, North Carolina court that Robert Chandler unlawfully detained him as a servant sometime between 1749 and 1759 [CR 044.101.2, undated 1749-1759 indenture bond]. He may have been the father of
i. William, born before 1776, head of a Stokes County, North Carolina household of 3 "free colored" in 1820 [NC:370].
ii. Byrd, married Mavel Stewart, 20 April 1815 Person County bond. She was the daughter of Thomas Stewart, who mentioned her in his May 1818 Person County, North Carolina will [WB 8:77]. The Saponi's listed as being in 1755 was not listed as being associated with Robert Chandler.

Fairfax County, Virginia
1. Richard Shepherd, born about 1750, was a "Mullatto Boy" living in Truro Parish, Fairfax County, on 21 August 1752 when the court ordered the churchwardens to bind him to Henry Collem until the age of thirty-one [Orders 1749-54, 234]. He may have been the ancestor of
i. Frank, head of a Richmond City household of 2 "other free" in 1810 [VA:317].


Indian...but Powhatan Indian
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:08 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
The documents with the Collins and Saponi information was provided with the reference location below each one.

For Joe's dad, Me and many other Saponi descendants have already proved our descent to these families thru all the proper records, we have the documents which follow our families from the early 1700's all the way to the current date.

Documentation has never been the problem, the problem is some of these tribes in NC which use our ancestor's name refuses to allow Collins, Bowlings, Griffin, and Gibson membership to their tribes when these families have more proof than any other person as being Saponi.

And yes it is true that the tribes which refuse these families membership.....these tribe's ancestors are traced back to tribes which was not Saponi.

It is also true that there is no proof any Saponi stayed in NC. Historically the Saponi went West, North, and South out of NC.

As for you saying whatever I do, do not start my own tribe, well who should start a Saponi tribe? Someone who has no documented proof as being Saponi or someone who has documented proof as being from the Most documented Saponi family?? Should 7 families which are traced back to being called "indians" on the Virginia coast in the heart of Powhatan territory be allowed to start a tribe and call it "Sappony"?
If you did start a 'tribe', would you go back to your ancestral homelands that are documented (i.e., Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina)? Which state government would you petition for tribal recognition? What landbase would you claim? And what would your 'tribal' membership requirements be?
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:15 PM   #25
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Your documents state quite a bit of mulatto ancestry. Have you identified with any tribes in NC that claims saponi ancestry? Or are your claims that the tribes in NC using the name Saponi are fake?

Have you taken your argument/documents to Commision of Indian Affairs offices in these respective states?
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:23 PM   #26
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1716 | Prince George | "VA Wills and Administrations Prince G Co." John Nance (as Jno) - will; per "NR": Will of JOHN Nance, Prince George Co, VA, June 9 1716....Item I give unto my son John my land excepting four a. in the plantation I now live on to my son Richard and wife's life in the said plantation, then the said land to my son John and his heirs forever. If my son, John Nance, demands any of the estate of mother Sookings [or Gookings?], to return everything that he had in hand of my estate. I give unto my loving wife, Sarah, my best feather bed, a pair of sheets and rug, leather trunk and wearing clothes. To my daughter Susan my second best feather bed, sheets and blanket. To my daughter Elizabeth Gregory, one shilling. To my daughter, Elinor Warpole, one shilling. To my son, John, one shilling. I give all the rest of my estate within doors and without to my son Richard and Daughter, Dorothy, to be equally divided. I constitute and appoint my son Richard and my wife executor and executrix of my last will and testament. June 9, 1716. Witnesses: William Stainback [NOTE: William Standback is on 1704 Rent Roll for Pr.Geo Co] , William Epps [NOTE: he is on 1704 Rent Roll for Pr.Geo Co] , Francis Epps [NOTE: Capt. Francis Epes is on 1704 Rent Roll for Pr.Geo Co] . Probated 2nd Tuesday November 1716."


1. Patent 12, p. 274, VA, 17 August 1725, Prince George Co., 200 acres on
the lower side of Nummissen Creek beginning in the line of Thomas Ravenscraft,
William Hamlin and & William Epes (Eppes/ Epps?)
On 28 September, 1728, Prince George Co., William Stoa, received 400 acres
on the lower side of Nummisseen Creek, adjoining Christopher Rowland. Patents
13.
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:30 PM   #27
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woah!!! thats too much information there got kinda lost in all that shuffle of information*lol*so wha tis the point of this thread? you got me and im sure alot of other ppl confused
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:32 PM   #28
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woah!!! thats too much information there got kinda lost in all that shuffle of information*lol*so wha tis the point of this thread? you got me and im sure alot of other ppl confused
You aren't the only one. I've been watching this thread since it started, actually after he made the second post and I'm lost.LOL
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:32 PM   #29
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All I know is my ancestors are traced back to the Saponi (others have traced theirs back as well and we have started all finding each other), The tribes which use the Saponi name (usually something which tribes have started doing recently).......these tribes will not allow Collins, Bowlings, Gibson, Griffin, etc membership.


So that would make a person start to wonder why, If a person starts to look into who these tribes claim as their ancestors.....it does kinda make a person wonder...all I am saying is people need to research the Historic Saponi documents and found out who the Saponi was.

the out of NC,VA, SC thing does bring up a problem since it's documented that Saponi started leaving North Carolina in the 1760's. So it does make it hard to get any kind of recognition for these descendants. These tribes in NC which got State using the Saponi name refuse to give them membership. so the Descendants have been thrown to the dogs while these other tribes using the name attempts to take the Name from them. That is my oppinion on the situation.
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:39 PM   #30
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Okay, well I don't know enough about this tribe to say anything one way or another. And I've had my own debates lately.LMAO

I'll leave this to more experts and just sit back and watch. I just wanted to say I was watching this thread since the beginning and you had me confuse just like Flute Maker said earlier too.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:06 AM   #31
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lol it does get confusing.

as for tribal land and stuff like that, we had 3 treaties which from my understanding our tribal land given was at Fort Christana in VA which apprently we lost due to us having to leave because our enemies being on both sides of us, some was later banded up with the Cayuga in New York and then later sent up into Canada while the other Saponi went to Granville NC and then abandoned Granville NC.

the descendants are spread out in various states.

as for requirements we feel since our tribe was so small by the 1700's and since there is only maybe 12 names actually listed on Saponi documents....it would only be right to make the requirement to be having a Saponi ancestor (survival purposes). Me personally only thing I would even seek is to be known that my ancestors was Saponi which would show proof the tribe is not extinct. Any money for the tribe would be strictly for learning more about the tribe and letting others learn about the tribe (Tribal knowledge survival purposes only). Basically the only thing I would seek is for the right of all Descendants to our ancestor's tribe name and that would be pretty much only thing I would seek if I did start a tribe. No monthly checks, Federal school funding, or anything like that, just right to our ancestor's heritage and name.

As the current situation sits, we do not have any standing other than our documents as to having any right to even claim Saponi or attempt to preserve our Saponi heritage. If we was to even attempt to try our hand as preserving our ancestor's arts and crafts and label it Saponi made.....we could probally get in trouble. I read a article once which read "the Saponi are now extinct", because of that article is the reason I am wanting to do what ever I can to preserve the Saponi and let people know the Saponi are not extinct. Some intermarried with other tribes, some married into white families to keep from being caught up in the indian removals down in the southern states (several did come into GA in the 1820's), and some just married into white and black families to the point people just could not tell what race they was. In 1714 we was taken into the Schools to be taught new ways to live and new religion thus we became like the english very early....our language was replaced by english very early as well. For a long time we was even the bodyguards of the English settlers of Virginia....the English Settlers still hung our Chief after we protected them (we killed some of our rival tribe which lead to the English hanging the chief).

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Old 05-21-2008, 01:05 AM   #32
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I guess the best way to keep people from being confused is by reading the writeings of Robert K Thomas.

The 34 pages known as "Cherokee communities of the South"

http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcon...=robert_thomas

start on page 9
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Old 05-21-2008, 04:20 AM   #33
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Well while I re reading over the treaties for the various tribes at Fort Christiana....I did find something interesting when reading the one for the Nottoway tribe.

The "Sappony" aka "indians of Person county"....they say they come from 7 familes, one being the Shepard family.

Now I know maybe 5 or 7 years after the Nottoway signed their treaty there was a Shepard lady which claimed she had a child by "Indian Edmund". I also know a William Edmund signed the Fort Christana treaty for the Nottoway and this Indian Edmund was the Chief for the Nottoway, all the english Colonials knew him, His indian name was Ouracoorass Teerheer of the Nottoway. The Nottoway peace treaty Signed by William Edmund at Williamsburg the 27th of February 1713.

Now interesting part is there was another Shepard lady born nearly the same time as the above mentioned Shepard lady, she was in Prince George VA, Which I believe would be in Nottoway land.

The Saponi Chief was hung for killing a Nottoway indian.

Ann Shepherd, born say 1703, was a "Christian white woman" who was presented by the Accomack County, Virginia Court for having an illegitimate child. When required to identify the father of her child on 6 June 1721, she told the Accomack County court that it was "Indian Edmund," but on 6 July 1721 she admitted that it was Henry Jackson "a Mullatto." The court ordered that she be sold for five years [Orders 1719-24, 33].

Mary Shepherd, born say 1705, was the servant of William Powell on 22 March 1725 when she was presented by the Prince George's County court for having a "malatto" child [Court Record 1723-6, 557].


So we have the Saponi which kill some Nottoway, we have two slave Shepard women, One apprently names the Nottoway Chief as being the father of her child and the other woman is in Nottoway territory when she is brought to court for having a Mullatto child...both being brought to court 3 years apart.
We also know the Tuscarora's Children was to be schooled at Fort Christiana but was sold into slavery (the Fort being near Prince George). We also know the Saponi fought the Nottoway and Tuscarora and we know the Nottoway and Tuscarora was friends. Today we have a tribe which goes by the name Sappony and uses the name Shepard to claim Saponi roots. The Saponi and Nottoway and Tuscarora agrees to be at peace. We then find a record which states some Saponi are living in Granville NC....we find the Collins Gibson and Bowlings families living there (same names found in court records with the Saponi which was named in the killing of the Nottoway). Then the Shepard family shows up in the Granville NC area. So is the Sappony aka Indians of Person counties' Shepard family Saponi, Nottoway, or Tuscarora??

The Sappony tribe also states they come from the Epps family. A Colonial William Epps to be exact. There was a Captain William Epps which came from the same general area as these Shepard families and there was Epps which married into the Shepard family. The Sappony say their Colonial William epps served with their 3rd tribal last name Stuart/stewart.

Then if we look at the Lost colony which was a English Colony left on the Coast of Va/NC with two indian guides we will find the other 3 last names which the Sappony aka Indians of Person county are using as names they come from. This colony was never found again and some say this Colony went to live with the 2 indian guide's tribe, VA and NC coast tribes would probally be Powhatan, Tuscarora, or Nottoway.

In the written work of Robert K it states there was other indians living in the granville and person county area other than just the Saponi, he also states the Saponi had left the Granville and Person county area.

So is the Sappony aka Indians of Person county Saponi, Tuscarora, Nottoway, or Powhatan??

If they are not Sappony then should they have the right to use the Saponi tribe name or deny Saponi descendants membership?

And here is a scary question......If they get federal recognition then does that give them control over the Saponi tribal name, heritage, Saponi burial mound out near Orange county VA and Louisa county VA, control over Saponi artifacts, land from Saponi treaties, and other Saponi related stuff?

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Old 05-21-2008, 11:23 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
The documents with the Collins and Saponi information was provided with the reference location below each one.

For Joe's dad, Me and many other Saponi descendants have already proved our descent to these families thru all the proper records, we have the documents which follow our families from the early 1700's all the way to the current date.

Documentation has never been the problem, the problem is some of these tribes in NC which use our ancestor's name refuses to allow Collins, Bowlings, Griffin, and Gibson membership to their tribes when these families have more proof than any other person as being Saponi.

And yes it is true that the tribes which refuse these families membership.....these tribe's ancestors are traced back to tribes which was not Saponi.

It is also true that there is no proof any Saponi stayed in NC. Historically the Saponi went West, North, and South out of NC.

As for you saying whatever I do, do not start my own tribe, well who should start a Saponi tribe? Someone who has no documented proof as being Saponi or someone who has documented proof as being from the Most documented Saponi family?? Should 7 families which are traced back to being called "indians" on the Virginia coast in the heart of Powhatan territory be allowed to start a tribe and call it "Sappony"?
OK, I see what you've provided for the Collins and I agree that there appears to be a pretty strong likelihood that they were Saponi. But what about the Gibson family? What's the evidence that they were Saponi?

Personally I don't know much about the Sappony of Person County so I don't have a dog in that fight. I also don't know much about the Occoneechi Saponi either....so I'll leave that one alone. But in regards to the Haliwa Saponi....if you look at what they say closely you will see that they lay claim to being Saponi, Nansemond, and Tuscarora.....not just Saponi.

In regards to whether or not you should be allowed to enroll with any of these groups......it does make a difference if your family is connected to their communities. Hell in regards to the Haliwa there are people living right where they are and are known by them to share some of their blood that aren't allowed on their rolls for variouse reasons.....so I don't think there is anyway they are going to enroll anyone who isn't tied to their particular community at all.....and it must be understood that it is a tribe's right to determine their own particular membership. Even though there are 3 state recognized tribes in NC that use the Saponi name I seriously doubt that a person from one band could enroll with any of the others. What community your from plays a very important roll in this type of thing.

So my advice to you would be to just leave them to their own business and take your family/community and go do your own thing independant from them. However, I don't recommend organizing as a tribe if there is no community base left. I'm not saying your not Saponi (because based on the info you provided it looks like you are), I'm just saying you might just have to accept being a Saponi whose particular band/branch doesn't exist in a community setting anymore (if you guys don't have a community....again I don't know.... If you do? I say go do your own thing and go for your own independant recognition).

Just my opinon.
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Old 05-21-2008, 12:49 PM   #35
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Well the gibson was listed in louisa county with the Collins as going to court for concealing tithes...they plead not guilty.

If they was native american or white and native american....they probally was exempt from tithables and probally why they plead not guilty.

these same people in that court case are found later in Granville NC.

Louisa is on the border of Orange county Va and Charlottesville VA (This is the first area the Saponi was found living in when John Smith came thru).

The records shows that some saponi was found in orange county the same time the Collins and bowlings was in Orange county.

Then in 1755 and 1761 Saponi are stated as living in granville NC. This is the same time frame we find Gibson, Collins, and Bowlings in granville (all listed mullatto). after 1761 there is no more records of Saponi in the Granville area....after 1761 the Gibson, Collins, and Bowlings families started leaving the Granville area.

So I would say the gibson family is probally Saponi also.

Some of these Collins family left Granville and went to robeson county, Some went to Tennesse, Some went to Sc.

Check out that book on Robert K which i mentioned earlier...you'll love it. It shows how the Lumbee are without a doubt native american and it gives alot of details on the Lumbee families. I love Robert K's various writeings on the Eastern Native communitees (his writings could come in very handy in getting Lumbee federal recognition).

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Old 05-21-2008, 03:06 PM   #36
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Okay I'm just going to add my two cents here ...

ECSN I don't see a straightforward enough point from you in this thread to do more than skim all the 'evidence' you have submitted. Not to say that your information isn't accurate, just that I don't know what exactly you are trying to use it for as far as 'evidence' goes.

Here is just a suggestion for you, actually for a lot of people that post on powwows.com, to consider. If/when you are going to write a letter to a commission or a governing people regarding your complaint/statement, can you please use grammar and spell check, as well as reread your work? This is just coming from one Native, who has the best interest of our people in mind, to you and many others. From someone in a professional field of work, I can honestly say I do not know how seriously I would take your research if you do not even take the time to check what you have written yourself. I do not make this suggestion in a mean spirited way at all. It is just something I would like to bring to your attention. This is what I caught from your first post regarding this topic, with changes in purple.

"I guess this is the best place to put this, since it is a native issue.

As some people may or not be aware, currently there are a large amount of Saponi descendants that are NOT being allowed membership to state recognized tribes in NC who use the Saponi name.

So what I would like to do is encourage people to research all of the information on the Saponi. Study the names which are attached to these documents which were recorded back in the 1700's.

Personally I feel a great injustice going on. Perhaps the descendants have been quiet for too long.

To start your research I'd like to suggest some writings by Robert K Thomas. Robert K. Thomas, who died in 1991, was an anthropologist, professor, and Cherokee Indian." (Cherokee from where?)

I think it is great that you seem to have invested so much time and energy into this topic and I can only hope that the right channels understand your point and help you on your way to whatever end you are trying to reach with this awareness.
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Old 05-21-2008, 03:17 PM   #37
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I think that Oneidagirl pretty much pegged it right there. That was what I couldn't understand either and that might have been what other's couldn't figue out either. Good points.
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Old 05-21-2008, 04:27 PM   #38
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what i couldnt figure out, and still cant, is what the exact problem is. are we being told that these people are being denied because of some sinister plot against them? or do they just not meet the enrollment requirements of this particular group? it may be unfortunate, but people are denied all the time for insufficient documentation. its not enough to just draw up a family tree with all the right names,dates and places. there has to be a direct line of evidenciary support. i know for many people that kind of documentation just doesnt exist. records were lost,or destroyed or in some cases not even kept. but thats not a travesty, thats just the way the cookie crumbles.
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Old 05-22-2008, 02:11 AM   #39
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Documentation is NOT the problem....we have all the documentation.

The problem is that people who can not prove they are Saponi has started using the name Saponi on their tribe and then not allowing people on the the Saponi documents membership.

If your ancestor's name is on historical Saponi documents then you will NOT be allowed membership to the NC Saponi tribes...that is the problem.

I have never heard of this concept being used by ANY tribe ever except by these tribes in NC.

Look....read that Robert K writing I was talking about and you will understand.

In fact the "Sappony" (this tribe did not refer to their self as Saponi until 2003, before that was calling their self the Indians of Person county) tribe has been asked by several people for what their enrollment requirement is, they refuse to tell what the requirement is. What kind of tribe asks for federal recognition but refuses to tell anyone what their requirement is.

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Old 05-22-2008, 07:35 AM   #40
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the picture is starting to clear. it sounds ,to me, as if youre feeling there is some sort of conspiracy to keep the folks you say are 'real' saponi out of this particular group. if thats the case ,and you feel that strongly about it then this is something you need to take to the state commission. gather up everything you have documenting yourself and anyone else youre working with. gather everything you have from the tribe saying you cant enroll and make another attempt to get the enrollment requirments in writting. send a notorized request (keep a notorized copy) via regestered/certified mail.ask for specific information. you'll have to give them a reasonable amount of time to respond,you may even have to send 2 or 3 requests. be polite, but be presistant. if they fail to respond or if the refuse to provide the information add that to your evidence and make an appointment with the commissioners office for the whole group and go en mas.present a united front.and be organized. be so organized that once you walk into that office they dont have to wonder about anything.
i know they say 'its the squeeky wheel that gets the grease', but its the wobbly one that gets new wheel berrings
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