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Old 05-22-2008, 07:56 AM   #41
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one more thing...... im sure its doesnt really need to be said, but dont send the state your original documents. send notorized copies
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:35 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
Documentation is NOT the problem....we have all the documentation.

The problem is that people who can not prove they are Saponi has started using the name Saponi on their tribe and then not allowing people on the the Saponi documents membership.

If your ancestor's name is on historical Saponi documents then you will NOT be allowed membership to the NC Saponi tribes...that is the problem.

Here is my question for you ...

If these people in NC, as you say, cannot prove they are Saponi and are only using the name, why would people who can prove they are Saponi even want to be enrolled with that group?

If you are legit why would you want be part of a group who (by heresay) isn't? Make sense?

You have provided a lot of documentation proving that you are who you say you are. Are you able to provide documentation that these people aren't who they say they are? I think whatever it is you are looking to gain from this would be a lot easier if you could prove that as well.

Although in my opinion, it seems like you are just trying to stir up some trouble and slander these people in NC with a moot point.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:41 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
If your ancestor's name is on historical Saponi documents then you will NOT be allowed membership to the NC Saponi tribes...that is the problem.
As far as this comment do you have documentation proving this is the case? Also, are you aware of the discrepencies between the "Tuscaroras of NC" and the Tuscaroras of NY? Are you certain there isn't a similiar problem going on with the Saponis of NC and your group of Saponi? I suggest you look at the whole of the problem and not just your side of it in order to gain what you are looking for.

As far as "never hearing any tribes doing that before" ... what other tribes are you referring to? I'm part of a Nation not a tribe. There is a bit of a difference there also.
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:30 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by FluteMaker View Post
the picture is starting to clear. it sounds ,to me, as if youre feeling there is some sort of conspiracy to keep the folks you say are 'real' saponi out of this particular group. if thats the case ,and you feel that strongly about it then this is something you need to take to the state commission. gather up everything you have documenting yourself and anyone else youre working with. gather everything you have from the tribe saying you cant enroll and make another attempt to get the enrollment requirments in writting. send a notorized request (keep a notorized copy) via regestered/certified mail.ask for specific information. you'll have to give them a reasonable amount of time to respond,you may even have to send 2 or 3 requests. be polite, but be presistant. if they fail to respond or if the refuse to provide the information add that to your evidence and make an appointment with the commissioners office for the whole group and go en mas.present a united front.and be organized. be so organized that once you walk into that office they dont have to wonder about anything.
i know they say 'its the squeeky wheel that gets the grease', but its the wobbly one that gets new wheel berrings

I defiently feel you on that. Thats exactly what alot of the descendants have been talking about doing.

I'm not saying it's a conspiracy.....however it's really strange certain tribes when asked to show something to prove they are who they say they are...they apprently reply with "we have no intention to show proof".....and then when asked to say what their tribal enrollment requirements are then they reply "we have no intention of saying what our requirements are".....not saying which tribe says that...but the way I see it is anyone who has nothing to hide would be proud to show proof they are who they say they are.....you know what it does kinda sound like to me though.....is that maybe if the collins, Bowlings, Harrisons, etc is accepted to the tribes and they go for federal then the government will have to look at the documents which list names....and maybe it will look suspecious that certain names are not on them documents lol however without the collins, Bowlings, Harrisons, etc not part of that tribe then them Documents will not have to be brought up during a federal recognition hearing. Thats my oppinion on my thoughts about why we are not allowed.

Last edited by ECSN; 05-22-2008 at 01:06 PM..
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:36 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by OneidaGirl928 View Post
As far as this comment do you have documentation proving this is the case? Also, are you aware of the discrepencies between the "Tuscaroras of NC" and the Tuscaroras of NY? Are you certain there isn't a similiar problem going on with the Saponis of NC and your group of Saponi? I suggest you look at the whole of the problem and not just your side of it in order to gain what you are looking for.

As far as "never hearing any tribes doing that before" ... what other tribes are you referring to? I'm part of a Nation not a tribe. There is a bit of a difference there also.
I'm not entirely aware of these two groups problem

However I know they was our enemy back in the 1700's. There was also a Tuscarora that signed a peace treaty with the Saponi and Virginia...then there was a Tuscarora which was the enemy of the Virginians as well....Some Tuscarora's was at Fort Christiana with us and some of their kids was schooled with the Saponi kids....however the Tuscarora's complained that their kids got sold off as slaves.

After Fort Christiana a new peace treaty was made in 1722 in New York...some of the Saponi ended up joining the Cayuga in New York....these Saponi (Refered to mainly as Tutelo since more Tutelo than Saponi went) and the Tuscarora was sent out to canada and became the 6 nations....I think i got all that right.

Now the Tuscarora's which signed the treaty with the Saponi...this group came out of North Carolina...I guess these two groups was kinda like how the upper and lower creeks was...

I'm not aware of the current Tuscarora situation though.

Last edited by ECSN; 05-22-2008 at 12:49 PM..
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:13 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
I'm not entirely aware of these two groups problem

However I know they was our enemy back in the 1700's. There was also a Tuscarora that signed a peace treaty with the Saponi and Virginia...then there was a Tuscarora which was the enemy of the Virginians as well....Some Tuscarora's was at Fort Christiana with us and some of their kids was schooled with the Saponi kids....however the Tuscarora's complained that their kids got sold off as slaves.
Okay as far as enemies and the way of the world way back then ... we are in the here and now ... we are all Native people and we should be focused on unifying in order to pursue the recognition in the USA we so deserve.

As far as the Tuscarora discrepency ... most went up North and, yes, became the Sixth Nation of the Iroquois. The few that stayed in NC were aware they were cutting off ties with those that went up North. Now they are pretty much SOL because they cannot gain the recognition they desire as Tuscarora people. Was there a split with the Saponi people anywhere in the past which would cause the Saponi in NC to not allow your people entry, is my question?
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:16 PM   #47
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ECSN ... you didn't respond to my first post today ... the one I posted at 10:35am. Did you miss it? I'd like to hear your thoughts on that one also.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:43 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by OneidaGirl928 View Post
Okay as far as enemies and the way of the world way back then ... we are in the here and now ... we are all Native people and we should be focused on unifying in order to pursue the recognition in the USA we so deserve.

As far as the Tuscarora discrepency ... most went up North and, yes, became the Sixth Nation of the Iroquois. The few that stayed in NC were aware they were cutting off ties with those that went up North. Now they are pretty much SOL because they cannot gain the recognition they desire as Tuscarora people. Was there a split with the Saponi people anywhere in the past which would cause the Saponi in NC to not allow your people entry, is my question?
Hey how's it going.

I want to reply to what your saying here (just offer a different perspective) and clear up something ECSN inferred (understandably) about me earlier.

Although my screenname says Lumbeedancer (as I don't have anough points to change it yet). I am actually enrolled with the Tuscaroras in NC instead of the Lumbee tribe (who I sent a notorized dis-enrollment form to about 12 months ago).

In regards to your statements about most of the Tuscarora going north (which is a very....very....common misconception...and I don't blame you one bit for making this statement) here are two (for now) things to consider in this regard:

1.) It is estimated that roughly 3,000 Tuscaroras survived the Tuscarora war of 1711-1712 (See Roy F. Johnsons "The Tuscaroras Volume II")

2.) By about the year 1800 John Reed Swanton (and others)places the Tuscarora population of Grand River and Niagra Falls combined as being right at about 400 people (this is right around the time that Tuscarora migration from NC had ended).

Maybe it's just me, but something isn't adding up here?

Also important to consider is that the Tuscarora Folks in Robeson County who migrated from the region Roundabout (and in some cases directly on) the Tuscarora Reservation on the Roanoke River (and in some cases the Neuse...meaning they never even went to that reservation in the first place) came here for the most part (as these are the years when they appear in documents..many may have been here even earlier than this) between the years 1750 and 1790.......meaning that they would not have been there to have been told that they were giving up their right to the Tuscarora name. Certainly a Tuscarora identity was professed by them on numerous occasions throughout the 1800s (and this is documented.....it's the first tribal affiliation given by anyone from Robeson and surrounding counties), after their alledged loss of their right to their traditional name!



Alas (sigh!) it appears that the state recognized folks in my very own community have also been allowed to claim whatever the hell they want (no doubt in part due to the discrepancy between those Tuscaroras up North and the potential political ramifications of a truthful claim) by the Commision on Indian affairs without any actual documentation.............And it is a shame that the folks who choose to go by what "HISTORY ACTUALLY SAYS (and yes "as hard as it may be to believe" in a few cases...what their very own family has continuously handed down to them to this day)" are told that they are a splinter group of the massive bogus Cheraw Machine out there (which is the Lumbee tribes professed identity...and coincidentally also a dead nation that doesn't have another band out there to appose or critique in any way) and that they have no right to state recognition regardless of the fact that they have one of the strongest (if not the strongest) cases identifying them as being Tuscarora than most (again...if not all!) NC state recognized tribes have identifying themselves as being who that lay claim to being!

ECSN......Trust me........from personal experience I understand your frustration on this issue in more ways than one!


OneidaGirl928 Your thoughts on unity sound really good from where I'm sittin.......but it appears that in the state of North Carolina; compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance, hypocrocy, and the elite (as stated in Rage Against the Machine's "Know Your Enemy"...good song by the way...LOL!) just wont allow that to happen!

Just some things to consider (from my own little frustated perspective in the world...but who am I right?...just some loudmouth nobody I guess....LOL!)!

If I seem rude or blunt then I apologize...just trying to be clear and strait forward is all!

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Old 05-23-2008, 12:53 AM   #49
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I would like to say a few things, while trying not to sound as I'm rambling.

I have family roots in the east as many others. I have been able to correspond with distant cousins from the NC, VA, PA, SC, TN and KY areas. I too, have family who were of prominant status in many of these areas. timmy tiger has helped me by pointing out some areas to look. Most of my families came west prior to the Trails of Tears Era. As many other families mine moved west to be removed from the White Colonist(Settlers). My families relocated here in the West and associated with the other NDN peoples as they could. I can go into these families names and locations if anyone wishes but that would just be a clutter.

These families lost contact with their Eastern family and joined right in with the Westerns. I would not mind being associated with these peoples such as the Catawba's, Saponi's, Eastern Cherokees, Tuscaroras, Powhatans, Pamonkee(sp), Chicahominy(sp), Lumbee, etc.. I could provide my family blood lines but the fact is, these families were not in that location when reassembled.

Would this not be the same as our Dawes Commission rolls? Those families who do not have a direct decendent actually listed on the rolls are not able to enroll. This is no matter if Mom and Dads other family did enroll. (sounds a little awkward). I think you know what I mean. I better stop here but I found many good people and family in the Saponi Town Forum. I found family I never knew existed. A special thanks to timmy tiger for all your help finding my Eastern families.
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Old 05-23-2008, 01:05 AM   #50
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WOW you are very welcome Cherosage. I am both flattered and honored that you said those things about me. Thank you.

I'm just glad that I was able to be of some help to you and glad that you have been able to find family that you didn't know about.

That's what it's really all about. Finding connections and people that you really didn't know existed before. The connections are what brings you home--not the Federal Government or a "Card", but the connections.
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Old 05-23-2008, 05:10 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lumbeedancer View Post
Hey how's it going.

I want to reply to what your saying here (just offer a different perspective) and clear up something ECSN inferred (understandably) about me earlier.

Although my screenname says Lumbeedancer (as I don't have anough points to change it yet). I am actually enrolled with the Tuscaroras in NC instead of the Lumbee tribe (who I sent a notorized dis-enrollment form to about 12 months ago).

In regards to your statements about most of the Tuscarora going north (which is a very....very....common misconception...and I don't blame you one bit for making this statement) here are two (for now) things to consider in this regard:

1.) It is estimated that roughly 3,000 Tuscaroras survived the Tuscarora war of 1711-1712 (See Roy F. Johnsons "The Tuscaroras Volume II")

2.) By about the year 1800 John Reed Swanton (and others)places the Tuscarora population of Grand River and Niagra Falls combined as being right at about 400 people (this is right around the time that Tuscarora migration from NC had ended).

Maybe it's just me, but something isn't adding up here?

Also important to consider is that the Tuscarora Folks in Robeson County who migrated from the region Roundabout (and in some cases directly on) the Tuscarora Reservation on the Roanoke River (and in some cases the Neuse...meaning they never even went to that reservation in the first place) came here for the most part (as these are the years when they appear in documents..many may have been here even earlier than this) between the years 1750 and 1790.......meaning that they would not have been there to have been told that they were giving up their right to the Tuscarora name. Certainly a Tuscarora identity was professed by them on numerous occasions throughout the 1800s (and this is documented.....it's the first tribal affiliation given by anyone from Robeson and surrounding counties), after their alledged loss of their right to their traditional name!



Alas (sigh!) it appears that the state recognized folks in my very own community have also been allowed to claim whatever the hell they want (no doubt in part due to the discrepancy between those Tuscaroras up North and the potential political ramifications of a truthful claim) by the Commision on Indian affairs without any actual documentation.............And it is a shame that the folks who choose to go by what "HISTORY ACTUALLY SAYS (and yes "as hard as it may be to believe" in a few cases...what their very own family has continuously handed down to them to this day)" are told that they are a splinter group of the massive bogus Cheraw Machine out there (which is the Lumbee tribes professed identity...and coincidentally also a dead nation that doesn't have another band out there to appose or critique in any way) and that they have no right to state recognition regardless of the fact that they have one of the strongest (if not the strongest) cases identifying them as being Tuscarora than most (again...if not all!) NC state recognized tribes have identifying themselves as being who that lay claim to being!

ECSN......Trust me........from personal experience I understand your frustration on this issue in more ways than one!


OneidaGirl928 Your thoughts on unity sound really good from where I'm sittin.......but it appears that in the state of North Carolina; compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance, hypocrocy, and the elite (as stated in Rage Against the Machine's "Know Your Enemy"...good song by the way...LOL!) just wont allow that to happen!

Just some things to consider (from my own little frustated perspective in the world...but who am I right?...just some loudmouth nobody I guess....LOL!)!

If I seem rude or blunt then I apologize...just trying to be clear and strait forward is all!
The Tuscarora's did not all go to Canada. The Saponi and the Tuscarora's was told they had a choice to become part of the six nations of stay. Some stayed and some left.
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Old 05-23-2008, 05:32 AM   #52
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ECSN ... you didn't respond to my first post today ... the one I posted at 10:35am. Did you miss it? I'd like to hear your thoughts on that one also.
Well after my personal experience with them and what other Saponi descendants have said their experiences was with them then No I would not join them now.

However the main concern still stands that....if one of them does get federal recognition then it's quite possibly they gain a legal right to access to all things Saponi. They will also be the ones people writing books and making movies etc go to. While everyone else that is true Saponi descendants get called wannabes. The records on Saponi show the Saponi left NC left the Granville NC area back in the 1760's. The records show these Saponi moved to other states....the Saponi was originally in Charlottesville VA area until contact then they have been getting forced to migrate migrate migrate. This brings up the problem that since the Descendants are in a state other than NC or VA then they have no real way of getting any Government recognition. These tribes probally know this and they probally know all they have to do is just keep us off their rolls and they are in the clear. We was given land in a treaty in VA.....and this may be land if they get federal recognition they either get money for or they get land for, which should be something given to us even though we have never asked the government for anything.

The Catawba in SC was given something like 30 million for the land they had a treaty for. Which I think may be a reason some of these people who back in the late 1800's was claiming Catawba are now claiming Saponi, The Catawba tribe in SC was already given money for the treaty they had....so if these Catawba descendants which was not part of the SC Catwba settlement try to use the Catawba treaty for any land or money.....they can't. So I guess now they figure they claim Saponi they may be able to use the Saponi land treaty (which none of us descendants have even bothered with before). I mean how does a tribe ask Indian affairs for assistance in going to Oklahoma while claiming to be Catawba but get turned down (the Catawba's land was NOT in oklahoma, their treaty land was in SC).....so now they want to claim Saponi and ask for Federal recognition.

Remember that the SC Catwba left out about 80 percent of the Catawba families when they got their land settlement....but this still does not give any of them Catawbas which was left out to go and claim Saponi now.

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Old 05-23-2008, 07:41 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by lumbeedancer View Post
Hey how's it going.

I want to reply to what your saying here (just offer a different perspective) and clear up something ECSN inferred (understandably) about me earlier.

Although my screenname says Lumbeedancer (as I don't have anough points to change it yet). I am actually enrolled with the Tuscaroras in NC instead of the Lumbee tribe (who I sent a notorized dis-enrollment form to about 12 months ago).

In regards to your statements about most of the Tuscarora going north (which is a very....very....common misconception...and I don't blame you one bit for making this statement) here are two (for now) things to consider in this regard:

1.) It is estimated that roughly 3,000 Tuscaroras survived the Tuscarora war of 1711-1712 (See Roy F. Johnsons "The Tuscaroras Volume II")

2.) By about the year 1800 John Reed Swanton (and others)places the Tuscarora population of Grand River and Niagra Falls combined as being right at about 400 people (this is right around the time that Tuscarora migration from NC had ended).

Maybe it's just me, but something isn't adding up here?

Also important to consider is that the Tuscarora Folks in Robeson County who migrated from the region Roundabout (and in some cases directly on) the Tuscarora Reservation on the Roanoke River (and in some cases the Neuse...meaning they never even went to that reservation in the first place) came here for the most part (as these are the years when they appear in documents..many may have been here even earlier than this) between the years 1750 and 1790.......meaning that they would not have been there to have been told that they were giving up their right to the Tuscarora name. Certainly a Tuscarora identity was professed by them on numerous occasions throughout the 1800s (and this is documented.....it's the first tribal affiliation given by anyone from Robeson and surrounding counties), after their alledged loss of their right to their traditional name!



Alas (sigh!) it appears that the state recognized folks in my very own community have also been allowed to claim whatever the hell they want (no doubt in part due to the discrepancy between those Tuscaroras up North and the potential political ramifications of a truthful claim) by the Commision on Indian affairs without any actual documentation.............And it is a shame that the folks who choose to go by what "HISTORY ACTUALLY SAYS (and yes "as hard as it may be to believe" in a few cases...what their very own family has continuously handed down to them to this day)" are told that they are a splinter group of the massive bogus Cheraw Machine out there (which is the Lumbee tribes professed identity...and coincidentally also a dead nation that doesn't have another band out there to appose or critique in any way) and that they have no right to state recognition regardless of the fact that they have one of the strongest (if not the strongest) cases identifying them as being Tuscarora than most (again...if not all!) NC state recognized tribes have identifying themselves as being who that lay claim to being!

ECSN......Trust me........from personal experience I understand your frustration on this issue in more ways than one!


OneidaGirl928 Your thoughts on unity sound really good from where I'm sittin.......but it appears that in the state of North Carolina; compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission, ignorance, hypocrocy, and the elite (as stated in Rage Against the Machine's "Know Your Enemy"...good song by the way...LOL!) just wont allow that to happen!

Just some things to consider (from my own little frustated perspective in the world...but who am I right?...just some loudmouth nobody I guess....LOL!)!

If I seem rude or blunt then I apologize...just trying to be clear and strait forward is all!
Thank you LD ... I'm sorry you feel the way you do about the Lumbee that you would want to change a screen name on a social network though. The people I have met in NC, regardless if they claim Lumbee, Saponi or Tuscarora, have all been very kind and welcoming to me. I cannot say a bad word about them.

Now I am Oneida, where my roots &/or status are certain, so I cannot fully relate to any of you that have posted on this thread. I do, however, have this uncanny nack to look at both sides of a situation and not make any judgements.

To me, and I'm sure some people will disagree, 'Nativeness' is a state of mind. Now, let me explain ... I feel that there is enough discrimination in the world that there shouldn't be any amongst one group of people. If you were raised in Native ways, regardless of being a "full-blood", half-breed or less, then I don't think it should matter as long as you understand and respect what it means to be Native. It is what is in your heart that counts most. Life is too short to worry about what other people think.

But that is just my opinion.
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Old 05-23-2008, 07:57 AM   #54
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Well after my personal experience with them and what other Saponi descendants have said their experiences was with them then No I would not join them now.

However the main concern still stands that....if one of them does get federal recognition then it's quite possibly they gain a legal right to access to all things Saponi. They will also be the ones people writing books and making movies etc go to. While everyone else that is true Saponi descendants get called wannabes.
ECSN ... aren't you putting the cart before the horse per sey? You are worrying about movies and book authors after federal recognition? Really? I honestly don't believe that it matters much to movie and book writers if someone is a federally recognized Native or not. As far as legal rights to access all things Saponi, since you said they are claiming to be something they are not, aren't they already accessing things Saponi? Does it honestly matter if it is "legal" or not?

And since you have said you would not join them then what is it exactly you wish to gain from this thread? I think once you are able to state what information you are specifically looking for you will receive some good advice from the people on here.

Just my thoughts again ...
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Old 05-23-2008, 02:21 PM   #55
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I found some stuff thru my documents on the Tuscarora which might help.

Bishop Spangenberg's diary, writ-
ten at Edenton in 1752, records the
following:

"The Indians in North Carolina
are in a bad way . The Chowan
Indians are reduced to a few fam-
ilies. The Tuscarora lived 35 miles
from here, and are still in possession
of a pretty piece of land. They are
the remnant of that tribe with which
Carolina was formerly at war, and
part of them went to the Five Na-
tions, and united with them. The
Meherrin Indians, living further
west, are also reduced to a mere
handful. Still further west have the
Catawbas, who will probably be
our neighbors. They are still at
war with the Six Nations (Iroquois).
Southwest from here, behind South
Carolina, are the Cherokees, a great
Nation."


So there it shows that only a "part" of the Tuscarora's went to New York....and it shows that the Tuscarora's STILL had a piece of North Carolina land in 1752. That is a good piece of evidence to prove the Tuscarora in North Carolina after some was in New York. This diary was written in Edenton, Chowan county, Nc.


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Old 05-23-2008, 03:04 PM   #56
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Now the above document mentioned the Catawba.

Feb. 1897, U.S. Senate Document #144, entitled "The Catawba Tribe of Indians", the report says that "Dr. Joseph McDowell, of Fairmont, GA, under date of October, 1872, stated that the Indians referred to, and asking relief of the Government, were "Catawba Indians, and 81 in number." Dr. McDowell (who had married one of the Guy women and wrote at least two letters to the Indian Office on behalf of her people) also provided a list of the names and ages of the individuals whom he said wished the government to assist them in moving west to Indian Territory. The report further states that "William Guy, of Granville County, Ga (sic NC), and Simon Jeffries, of Bellville, Virginia, Catawba Indians, served five years in the Army and were honorably discharged, and these people are their descendants." He further states in his letter of October 1869, addressed to Eli Parker, U.S. Commissioner of Indian Affairs, that "I take the Liberty of addressing to you a few lines on behalf of a remnant of the tribe of Catawba Indians…Some 60 or 70 years since they left their tribe and went to Greenville County, Virginia, and then removed to Orange County, North Carolina…they sold out in Orange and moved to Macon County, N.C. where they purchased land and remained every since."


Thats the two family groups which currently say they are Occaneechi Saponi now and the two family groups which the Occaneechi Saponi have listed on their website's history section.

I come from that Jeffries family group as well....I actually live just a ways SW of Macon county Nc and I've lived many years to the East of Macon county, NC in Buncombe county NC.

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Old 05-23-2008, 03:42 PM   #57
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found some more info on the Tuscaroras for you.

About the end of July 1754 Governor Dobbs sailed from England and reached Virginia after a voyage of ten weeks. For more than a month he was engaged in arranging with Governor Dinwiddie and Governor Sharpe of Maryland the details of a plan of campaign against the french and he reached New Bern only at the close of October. Immediately on arriving he proceeded to make himself acquainted with the affairs of the province, and called for a militia return. As indicating the extension of population at that time;

Bertie reported 720 men for military duty; Northampton 737 men, which was thought to be 200 short; Edgecombe, 1317; Granville 734; Orange 490; Anson, 790, and Rowan 996. At Wilmington, Governor Dobbs found seventy families and at Brunswick twenty.

There were sixteen vessels in the Cape Fear River, while it was estimated that one hundred came in annually. Eighteen feet of water was reported at the bar. At Wilmington a good town house had been built and a brick church stood ready for the roof; while at Brunswick the church, also of brick, was not quite so far advanced. Forts had been begun below Brunswick at Oracoke and at Beaufort.

The Indian war being in progress particular inquiries were made as to the location of Indians in North Carolina. In Bertie County there were reported a hundred warriors of the Tuscaroras and two hundred women and children. In Chowan two men and three women and two children. In Granville County there were the Saponas with fourteen men and fourteen women. The Meherrins had seven or eight fighting men in Northampton.

The report concludes; “ These are all the Indians except about eight or ten Mattamuskeet Indians and as many on the island or banks, a total of twenty.”


That report sounds about right as with the diary report I posted earlier about the NC Tuscaroras.


I wanted to add how the actual reports read.

Bertie—Coll: Robert West's Regimt in Bertie County without officers, 8 Companys 720. Troop 44 Tuskeruro Indians 100 men & 201 women & children in all 301

Granville—Willm Eaton Esqr Coll: of Granville county His Regimt consists of 8 companys 734 besides officers 2 Captns Simms & Jones are moved away the others Resigned He thinks the fines on delinquents should be fixed by a Court Martial.

No arms or ammunition in the Stores There are about 12 or 14 Sapona men and as many women & children in the county Major Payne by Col: Eaton for Granville county recommends John Martin to be Captn over part of Sugar Jones Company & Willm Hawkins Captn over the other part above Shaws Road and John Hawkins Captn over part of Richd Coleman's Company & Willm Johnston over part of Willm Harris Company & Willm Paton Captn instead of Benjamin Sims moved away Capt Hursts Troop with officers 32.

Pages 161-162. Report concerning the militia in each county of North Carolina
Creator: No Author
1754
Volume 5
Currently at University of North Carolina.

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Old 05-23-2008, 06:16 PM   #58
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I ran across this online

::The Occaneechi trace their history to the Occaneechi, Saponi, and Tutelo tribes, who are related to the modern Catawba Tribe of Rock Hill, South Carolina. Their settlement in the Alamance County can be traced to 1787, when members of the Jeffries and Whitmore families settled in what came to be called the "Little Texas" community of northeastern Alamance County. ::

"the People's Paths!" NAIIP News Path! - Occaneechi Win NC State Tribal Recognition

The same family that was claiming Catawba and as I showed earlier...it was 1755 and 1761 that Saponi was recorded as being in the Granville area (alamance is the neghbor to granville and was at one time called Granville). Here is says traced to 1787. Now tell me if something don't sound right.

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Old 05-23-2008, 09:47 PM   #59
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Thank you LD ... I'm sorry you feel the way you do about the Lumbee that you would want to change a screen name on a social network though. The people I have met in NC, regardless if they claim Lumbee, Saponi or Tuscarora, have all been very kind and welcoming to me. I cannot say a bad word about them.

Now I am Oneida, where my roots &/or status are certain, so I cannot fully relate to any of you that have posted on this thread. I do, however, have this uncanny nack to look at both sides of a situation and not make any judgements.

To me, and I'm sure some people will disagree, 'Nativeness' is a state of mind. Now, let me explain ... I feel that there is enough discrimination in the world that there shouldn't be any amongst one group of people. If you were raised in Native ways, regardless of being a "full-blood", half-breed or less, then I don't think it should matter as long as you understand and respect what it means to be Native. It is what is in your heart that counts most. Life is too short to worry about what other people think.

But that is just my opinion.
I agree with you here in so many ways!

Legally (at least according to the 56 Lumbee Act) I am considered to be Lumbee by the federal government and State of NC and I will openly admit to anyone that the Lumbee are may people (hell my uncle is currently on the Lumbee tribal Council...and he is a very good man......done a lot for me over the years.)...... So I don't want anyone to think I hate Lumbees or anything........it's in fact the exact opposite.....LOL! I love Lumbee people.... who are "literally" my blood relatives (hell my fullblooded brother is still enrolled Lumbee....even though he understands that our ancestors were actually Tuscarora and not Cheraw). So I'm not attacking them in any way....LOL!

I like what you said about "Nativeness being a state of Mind"....and I definately agree with this statement. In all actuality it is "The State of Mind" of the Lumbee tribe (or at least most of it's leaders anyway) that I have a problem with!

They literally do not care about what nation our people are actually primarily descended from.....they don't care about bringing back language, ceremony, or anything reminiscant of who they actually are! This is sad! They even have culture classes teaching our children that they are descended from people that were actually hereditory enemies of our true ancestors.......and for these leaders to knowingly perpetuate these lies and discrace their actual heritage in such a way discusts me!

In regards to what you said to ECSN about being able to prove that these other people aren't Saponi........I can do that in regards to the Lumbee tribe's Cheraw claim........I can present documents "PROVING BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT" that, best case scenario (and I'm being very generouse here) the Indian folks in Robeson County are no-more than maybe 5% of Cheraw origin (if they have any Cheraw blood at all!).

I have a copy of the petition they prepared in the 1980's arguing that the people here are primarily Cheraw. I have looked over and listened to just about all of the presentations they made in DC over the last few years perpetuating the Cheraw garbage even further. And I can rip-every last bit of it apart! It's complete and utter Garbage! There is "ABSOLUTELY NO REAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT AT ALL."

To the contrary all the REAL EVIDENCE (every bit of which indicates a primary Tuscarora heritage) blatantly debunks this Cheraw claim hands down.

I'm sorry that I feel the way I do about the Lumbee leaders as well......What's even more sad, is the reason I feel this way.........This situation makes absolutely no sense at all........It's like a Native version of the Twilight Zone......LOL!






Hmmm....."Understanding and respecting what it means to be Native"......... I'm glad you brought this up. Here is my question to you (and any Lums who might be reading this):

Does claiming to be descended from a dead nation (so you wont step on any toes) in hopes that it will be an easier route to federal recognition illustrate understanding and respect for what it means to be native?

Or does looking at your your history for what it is, listening to what your grandparents actually said they were, listening to what your grandparents neighbors said they were, listining to what the documented genealogical record says you are, etc.... and being who you are regardless of who it pisses off and how much federal money you might stand to lose for doing so......illustrate understanding and respect for what it actually means to be Native?

This is the Delemma that the Indian folk in Robeson County are now faced with.....

Unfortunately; there are too many power players who prefer the first option....and would much rather just push all the little nobody's like myself (who gravitate more so towards the latter) to the side and ignore/discredit/silence them!

The roots of the people here are a lot more certain than folks could ever imagine....there is no mystery here.....It's a shame that your everyday average Joe isn't aware of this. And it's horrible that the people they have relied on to tell them the truth and do what is in their best intirests have taken advantage of their trust and kept them in the dark for so long and discraced the hell out of their forfathers true heritage and legacy all in the name of the mighty dollar!
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Old 05-24-2008, 12:31 PM   #60
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found some more info on the Tuscaroras for you.

About the end of July 1754 Governor Dobbs sailed from England and reached Virginia after a voyage of ten weeks. For more than a month he was engaged in arranging with Governor Dinwiddie and Governor Sharpe of Maryland the details of a plan of campaign against the french and he reached New Bern only at the close of October. Immediately on arriving he proceeded to make himself acquainted with the affairs of the province, and called for a militia return. As indicating the extension of population at that time;

Bertie reported 720 men for military duty; Northampton 737 men, which was thought to be 200 short; Edgecombe, 1317; Granville 734; Orange 490; Anson, 790, and Rowan 996. At Wilmington, Governor Dobbs found seventy families and at Brunswick twenty.

There were sixteen vessels in the Cape Fear River, while it was estimated that one hundred came in annually. Eighteen feet of water was reported at the bar. At Wilmington a good town house had been built and a brick church stood ready for the roof; while at Brunswick the church, also of brick, was not quite so far advanced. Forts had been begun below Brunswick at Oracoke and at Beaufort.

The Indian war being in progress particular inquiries were made as to the location of Indians in North Carolina. In Bertie County there were reported a hundred warriors of the Tuscaroras and two hundred women and children. In Chowan two men and three women and two children. In Granville County there were the Saponas with fourteen men and fourteen women. The Meherrins had seven or eight fighting men in Northampton.

The report concludes; “ These are all the Indians except about eight or ten Mattamuskeet Indians and as many on the island or banks, a total of twenty.”


That report sounds about right as with the diary report I posted earlier about the NC Tuscaroras.


I wanted to add how the actual reports read.

Bertie—Coll: Robert West's Regimt in Bertie County without officers, 8 Companys 720. Troop 44 Tuskeruro Indians 100 men & 201 women & children in all 301

Granville—Willm Eaton Esqr Coll: of Granville county His Regimt consists of 8 companys 734 besides officers 2 Captns Simms & Jones are moved away the others Resigned He thinks the fines on delinquents should be fixed by a Court Martial.

No arms or ammunition in the Stores There are about 12 or 14 Sapona men and as many women & children in the county Major Payne by Col: Eaton for Granville county recommends John Martin to be Captn over part of Sugar Jones Company & Willm Hawkins Captn over the other part above Shaws Road and John Hawkins Captn over part of Richd Coleman's Company & Willm Johnston over part of Willm Harris Company & Willm Paton Captn instead of Benjamin Sims moved away Capt Hursts Troop with officers 32.

Pages 161-162. Report concerning the militia in each county of North Carolina
Creator: No Author
1754
Volume 5
Currently at University of North Carolina.
Hey, I'm glad you brought this up (I've seen this stuff before..LOL!). The Tuscarora reservation wasn't disbanded in NC until 1804, but most people weren't living on it anymore by that time.

That 1754 estimate of 300 people (100 men 200 women and children) is most intiresting.....you know what's even more intiresting? In 1752 there was another estimate given that stated there were 300 warriors on that reservation......which if we do the the math, means that there were probably 600 women and children at that time and 900 people total.......It's amazing how that reservation appears to have dropped in population by 600 people in a 2 year period......with no recorded mention of them ever going North.......So what happened to them? That is the question at hand (not to mention all the other folks who never seem to have ended up on that reservation in the first place......remeber what I said about 3,000 surviving the war...but only 400 winding up with the Five Nations.....)

It appears that the Meherins, Saponi's, and remnants on Mattamuskeet (which included some Tuscaroras by the way) combined didn't even come close to being as populous as the Tuscaroras who were still on the reservation. Not to mention how many there appear to have been living beneath the radar in other parts of the region and state.....perhaps farther south maybe? Where it was less settled and they could lead a more peaceful life! Certainly General John C. Gorman thought so:

"A century ago, a few members of the Tuscarora tribe of Indians lived upon the banks of the Roanoke River, in Halifax County, NC and obtained a livelihood by hunting and fishing, but the encrouchments of the planters finally forced them to leave. They removed to Robeson County, and settled on the sandy patches of land situated amongst the slashes and swamps of the PeeDee and Lumber rivers, near the border line between the States of North and South Carolina........"[General John C. Gorman c. 1875, memoirs pertaining to his tour of duty in Robeson County during reconstruction]

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