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Old 05-25-2008, 03:40 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by lumbeedancer View Post
I agree with you here in so many ways!

Legally (at least according to the 56 Lumbee Act) I am considered to be Lumbee by the federal government and State of NC and I will openly admit to anyone that the Lumbee are may people (hell my uncle is currently on the Lumbee tribal Council...and he is a very good man......done a lot for me over the years.)...... So I don't want anyone to think I hate Lumbees or anything........it's in fact the exact opposite.....LOL! I love Lumbee people.... who are "literally" my blood relatives (hell my fullblooded brother is still enrolled Lumbee....even though he understands that our ancestors were actually Tuscarora and not Cheraw). So I'm not attacking them in any way....LOL!

I like what you said about "Nativeness being a state of Mind"....and I definately agree with this statement. In all actuality it is "The State of Mind" of the Lumbee tribe (or at least most of it's leaders anyway) that I have a problem with!

They literally do not care about what nation our people are actually primarily descended from.....they don't care about bringing back language, ceremony, or anything reminiscant of who they actually are! This is sad! They even have culture classes teaching our children that they are descended from people that were actually hereditory enemies of our true ancestors.......and for these leaders to knowingly perpetuate these lies and discrace their actual heritage in such a way discusts me!

In regards to what you said to ECSN about being able to prove that these other people aren't Saponi........I can do that in regards to the Lumbee tribe's Cheraw claim........I can present documents "PROVING BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT" that, best case scenario (and I'm being very generouse here) the Indian folks in Robeson County are no-more than maybe 5% of Cheraw origin (if they have any Cheraw blood at all!).

I have a copy of the petition they prepared in the 1980's arguing that the people here are primarily Cheraw. I have looked over and listened to just about all of the presentations they made in DC over the last few years perpetuating the Cheraw garbage even further. And I can rip-every last bit of it apart! It's complete and utter Garbage! There is "ABSOLUTELY NO REAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT AT ALL."

To the contrary all the REAL EVIDENCE (every bit of which indicates a primary Tuscarora heritage) blatantly debunks this Cheraw claim hands down.

I'm sorry that I feel the way I do about the Lumbee leaders as well......What's even more sad, is the reason I feel this way.........This situation makes absolutely no sense at all........It's like a Native version of the Twilight Zone......LOL!






Hmmm....."Understanding and respecting what it means to be Native"......... I'm glad you brought this up. Here is my question to you (and any Lums who might be reading this):

Does claiming to be descended from a dead nation (so you wont step on any toes) in hopes that it will be an easier route to federal recognition illustrate understanding and respect for what it means to be native?

Or does looking at your your history for what it is, listening to what your grandparents actually said they were, listening to what your grandparents neighbors said they were, listining to what the documented genealogical record says you are, etc.... and being who you are regardless of who it pisses off and how much federal money you might stand to lose for doing so......illustrate understanding and respect for what it actually means to be Native?

This is the Delemma that the Indian folk in Robeson County are now faced with.....

Unfortunately; there are too many power players who prefer the first option....and would much rather just push all the little nobody's like myself (who gravitate more so towards the latter) to the side and ignore/discredit/silence them!

The roots of the people here are a lot more certain than folks could ever imagine....there is no mystery here.....It's a shame that your everyday average Joe isn't aware of this. And it's horrible that the people they have relied on to tell them the truth and do what is in their best intirests have taken advantage of their trust and kept them in the dark for so long and discraced the hell out of their forfathers true heritage and legacy all in the name of the mighty dollar!
lumbeedancer,

Many years ago, I had the opportunity to sit down and talk to one of the elders from the Waccamaws. He told me the story of the man that came down from Washington to assist in recognition status for Indian people in NC. If you know the history from the 50's, then you'll know why NC tribes have the names they do. It's my opinion that you have to take into consideration the migration routes of the people of NC.

Having spent almost 30 years in NC, I developed a great love and respect for the Indian people on North Carolina. I traveled to many communities and social/political functions in the state. (Can you say Unity Conference!lol)

ECSN...I've seen many people claim Indian heritage. And while not disclaiming you, you have only produced documentation with names similar to yours (This was inferred). I could say my name is Smith and am a descendant of John Smith of Jamestown, Va. Trouble is, I would have to prove that I am a direct descendant of John Smith with documentation to the current time period.

I will ask you again...Who is your family and what road do they live on?
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


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Old 05-25-2008, 04:02 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
lumbeedancer,

Many years ago, I had the opportunity to sit down and talk to one of the elders from the Waccamaws. He told me the story of the man that came down from Washington to assist in recognition status for Indian people in NC. If you know the history from the 50's, then you'll know why NC tribes have the names they do. It's my opinion that you have to take into consideration the migration routes of the people of NC.

Having spent almost 30 years in NC, I developed a great love and respect for the Indian people on North Carolina. I traveled to many communities and social/political functions in the state. (Can you say Unity Conference!lol)

ECSN...I've seen many people claim Indian heritage. And while not disclaiming you, you have only produced documentation with names similar to yours (This was inferred). I could say my name is Smith and am a descendant of John Smith of Jamestown, Va. Trouble is, I would have to prove that I am a direct descendant of John Smith with documentation to the current time period.

I will ask you again...Who is your family and what road do they live on?

i've told you before.. I have all the documentation to show my linage to these people..so does the other descendants......Documentation has NEVER been our problem.

The famous Chief of the Shawnee's sister even become part of my ancestor's family somewhere along the line in virginia near Orange county and Louisa county....however shawnee is not my direct blood line.
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Old 05-25-2008, 04:38 AM   #63
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April 19 1755:
Abstracts of the Minutes of the
Court of Pleas and Quarter
Sessions Rowan County,
North Carolina 1753-1762
II:72 19 April 1755
Esquires present: Jas Carter, Jno Handby, Alexr Osburn & Thos Potts. … Whereas John Auston a Saponia Indian and Mary a Susquhanah Indian and Thos a Cattaaba applied for a pass to the Cataba Nation being now on their Journey to conclude a Genl Peace with ye Catabas in behalf of the Sd Nation and also presented 3 Belts of Wampum to Sd Court by which the sd Treaty is to be concluded.
Copyright Jo White Linn 1977
Mrs. Stahle Linn, Jr.
Box 1948
Salisbury, N.C. 28144
Stamped (Carnegie Public Library, Washington C. H., Ohio 43160)"


There is a Saponi which you probally never heard of and these other tribes probally never heard of. In my opinion, if one of his descendants showed 100 percent proof they was descendants of his...and applied to these NC tribes...he would still be denied. I guess this is one of the down sides of being from a tribe that was not included in something like the Dawes rolls. All we have to show who we are is documents like listed above..and even then that don't get you accepted to tribes.

Here is something....find out when the Saponi was actually found in the Granville NC area....(this is 1755 and 1761)....then find out when certain people claim their ancestors came to that area....see if it matches up.
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Old 05-25-2008, 10:00 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
lumbeedancer,

Many years ago, I had the opportunity to sit down and talk to one of the elders from the Waccamaws. He told me the story of the man that came down from Washington to assist in recognition status for Indian people in NC. If you know the history from the 50's, then you'll know why NC tribes have the names they do. It's my opinion that you have to take into consideration the migration routes of the people of NC.
Honestly I can't speak for the Waccamaws, as I'm not very knowledgable on their geneology and what not.

But I agree with you 100% on taking the migration routes into consideration. And thats the problem....all of the tracable geneologies (which is a very large majority) all go back to northeastern NC in regards to the Lumbee (with about 1/3 of them having roots in VA.....although most still lived in Northeast NC for a few generations before coming here....)......It is impossible that any of them could have been of Cheraw origin (a South Carolina tribe). Although in all likelihood there is some Saponi, Meherrin, Nottaway, Nansemond, et al blood represented in the Robeson County area; the sheer size (population wise) of the Tuscarora nation in itself is very overwhelming evidence that our people would have been primarily of Tuscarora blood at their core, not to mention the time frame......

Werease many Lumbee ancestors began appearing on the records in the 1720s and 1730s (The Tuscarora reservation was established in 1715), which is right about the time that many Tuscaroras would have started figuring out the land grant thing and would have started taking on European surnames and looking for a better life than what they were being offered on Indian woods (population estimates and the sheer volume of unnaccounted for Tuscaroras in the record indicate that there were many who fell into this category at this time).

The irony of this geneology (which was done in the last 20-30 years) is that it coincides perfectly with the oldest reference ever found in regards to the origins of Indian folks in Robco. In 1840 it was stated by 36 white Robeson County residents that the entire population (which would include those folks who can't be traced....debunking the hell out of the SC Cheraw claim all-together) migrated "ORIGINALLY" from the districts roundabout the Roanoke and Neuse Rivers (documented traditional Tuscarora homeland). This was understood and accepted in 1840 and geneological research of today has overwelmingly verified what was originally known to be true.

Whats even more ironic is that there were about six written accounts (all written before the people were state recognized in 1885) in the mid-late 1800's that specifically used the word "TUSCARORA (Not once was the word Cheraw ever used)" in regards to describing the people here. Some of these accounts came from the mouths of our people themselves while others came from the mouths of our neighbors.

Not only was the Tuscarora name given, but on occasion certain facts (that were documented as being true about the Tuscarora in Northeastern NC in the 1700s) were also given. Like Gormans reference to Tuscaroras coming to Robeson due to encrouchment from the planters. This coincides perfectly with the letter Tuscarora Chieftain James Blount wrote in the 1750s complaining about white folks taking Tuscarora land and telling the Tuscaroras that their title was no good.

[Coincidentally James Blount dissappeared from the records on indian Woods about 1767 and on May 4, 1769, a James Blount was issued a land grant of 500 acres on Flowers Swamp in what is now Robeson County NC.. (Bladen County deeds Book 20 Page 424, and
"The Tuscaroras" vol 2, by F.Roy Johnson, LRDA Settlement Pattern Study)]


Another prime example would be the Croatan bill itself (that state recognized the people in 1885). It specifically stated that our people claimed to be descended from that friendly tribe who once resided along the banks of the Roanoke River in eastern NC (which is where the Indian Woods reservation that was afforded to the "Friendly/Neutral" Tuscaroras after the Tuscarora War of 1711-1712 was located......and most of the geneologies of Lumbee ancestors trace back to).

Even more ironic is that not only did our people state this in the Croatan bill, but the man (Hamilton McMillan) who pushed for this bill to be passed was quoted in the Fayetteville Observer 2 days later with the Following statement:

"They say that their
traditions say that the people we call the Croatan Indians (though they do not recognize that name as that of a tribe, but only a village, and
that they were Tuscaroras), were always friendly to the whites; and finding them destitute and despairing of ever receiving aid from England,
persuaded them to leave the Island, and go to the mainland.…They gradually drifted away from their original seats, and at length settled in
Robeson, about the center of the county."




The geneology, the oral tradition, and documented Indian history in NC all say the exact same thing. The Indian folks in Robeson County are primarily of Tuscarora descent. This is what history says and this is what those people in leadership positions in Robeson County have a duty to profess to the world and teach to their children......

But alas there are to many sell outs with no back bone........who are afraid they will lose their HUD money ($12 million a year) or step on some toes ( i.e. the federally recognized Tuscaroras) and potentially never get full federal status because of the potential political backlash!

(Like their going to get recognized as Cheraw anyway.......friggin idiots.....what is this? like the 4th year in a row they tried and got nowhere? You'd think they'd have figured it out by now.......It's like Bart Simpson repeatedly putting his finger in the outlet....LOL! makes no sense!)

I guess I'm being redundant now...LOL!

ECSN.....sorry for hijacking your thread man.........I saw a chance to rant....and couldn't resist...LOL!
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Old 05-25-2008, 10:18 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
i've told you before.. I have all the documentation to show my linage to these people..so does the other descendants......Documentation has NEVER been our problem.

The famous Chief of the Shawnee's sister even become part of my ancestor's family somewhere along the line in virginia near Orange county and Louisa county....however shawnee is not my direct blood line.

This is what I have to agree with the above statement. It isn't about having the same names, it's having the documentation to get you there.

Here's the thing that I've seen so far. You are stating the names Richards and Epps, and I have read much of this, just not ever word so please clear this up if I am incorrect. Richards and Epps are English origin names, so where does the Indian come in? You posted their Wills, but I did not see anything there that said that they were Indian, just who their children where. So who did they marry?

Are you aware that back in the 1700's and early 1800's that many European families had 10-14 Children and they named their children after their parents and siblings. So for example--you could have 8 Gregory Richards running around the same area and an approx same age group within a 10 year period. And when you get back that far, there is more room for mistakes.

I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that, but as was mentioned on the other page--I've done this before and for many. I've had many people tell me that their relatives last names were on Rolls or old documents and when I actually looked and we went back--it was the exact same name--different wife, different children, or different siblings names, or even a different age. You have to connect ALL the dots, not just a few.

And, I'm not saying that you did this, but you can't just find one name that matches and come forward to prove the line--you must connect yourself totally to that person.
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Old 05-26-2008, 01:52 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
This is what I have to agree with the above statement. It isn't about having the same names, it's having the documentation to get you there.

Here's the thing that I've seen so far. You are stating the names Richards and Epps, and I have read much of this, just not ever word so please clear this up if I am incorrect. Richards and Epps are English origin names, so where does the Indian come in? You posted their Wills, but I did not see anything there that said that they were Indian, just who their children where. So who did they marry?

Are you aware that back in the 1700's and early 1800's that many European families had 10-14 Children and they named their children after their parents and siblings. So for example--you could have 8 Gregory Richards running around the same area and an approx same age group within a 10 year period. And when you get back that far, there is more room for mistakes.

I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that, but as was mentioned on the other page--I've done this before and for many. I've had many people tell me that their relatives last names were on Rolls or old documents and when I actually looked and we went back--it was the exact same name--different wife, different children, or different siblings names, or even a different age. You have to connect ALL the dots, not just a few.

And, I'm not saying that you did this, but you can't just find one name that matches and come forward to prove the line--you must connect yourself totally to that person.
The epps is the name the "Sappony" tribe in nc is using...which is not Sapony....all the research I have done on the names which that tribe say they descend from have traced back to the Nottoway.

I come form the Collins. And like I've said many times I've said before...it...is..not..the...documentation...that we have problems with.....it's these tribes apprently do not want anyone who was listed as Saponi. John Austin was listed in Government documents as a Saponi indian wanting to go to SC....his descendants are not even allowed membership and alot of them live here in Ga near me.

As for my Collins... I have went and traced every single Collins in Va and NC....they all trace back to coming over here from England.....except for my line.....My line starts at Fort Christiana (pretty much the "first" indian school).....if you know about indian schools....they have the indians turn christian....once this happens they write down a few "christian" aka "english" names and the indian students are to pick out names.....one of the Saponi indians had picked out the name of the Head teacher there "charles griffin".

Here is another question...the "sappony" tribe of NC....why are they seeking state recognition in Va since they already have it in NC??? what is the point of one tribe to have 2 state's recognize them...and they want federal recognition....when this tribe does not even have a ancestor listed specifically as saponi...and if you trace their ancestors they all start become listed as mullatto or indian while not in the Saponi areas. The saponi records state the saponi was in the granville NC in 1755 and 1761.....yet these tribes will say they was not even in granville NC till later. It makes no sense at all.
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:00 AM   #67
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Remember that Fort Christiana is a school and church.

John Fontaine and Lt. Gov. Spotswood, on a trip to Christanna.

April [14,] 1716. The day proving wet and windy, we remained within doors and we employed ourselves reading of Mr. Charles Griffiths his observations on the benefits of a solitary life. We reckon that we made this day 15 miles. In all from Williamsburg 80 miles.

April [15,] 1716. After this came the young women. They have all long straight black hair which comes down to their waist. They had each of them a blanket tied about their waists, and it hung down about their legs like a petticoat. They have no shifts or any thing to cover them from their waists up, but go naked. Others of them there was that had two deer skins sewed together and they threw it over their shoulders like a mantel. They all of them grease their bodies and head with bear's oil, which with the smoke of their cabins gives them an ugly hue. They are very modest and very true to their husbands. They are straight, well limbed, good shape and extraordinary good features as well the men as the women. They look wild and are mighty shy of an Englishman and will not let you touch them. The men marry but one wife and cannot marry any more until she die or grow so old that she will not bear any more children. But when she hath done bearing, then the man may take another wife, but is obliged to keep them both and maintain them. They take one another without ceremony."

John Fontaine at Christanna on April 17, 1716
"The fifth day. After breakfast I went down to the Saponey Indian town, which is about a musket shot from the fort. This town lieth in a plain by the river side. I walked round the town to view it.


Thats just quick bits and pieces of the diary..it's all about the Saponi tribe who signed their treaty to be there and this was where their reservation land was. Pay attention to the women's description and the school teacher's name.
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:10 AM   #68
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This one..keep in mind who the enemy of the shawnee was (the Saponi)....should also keep in mind the Shawnee chief's sister married into the collings family (collings and collins have used both spellings....the Shawnee's Collins came from a few counties over from Orange and Louisa county Va).

In the afternoon of the third of September, 1812, Elias Payne and a man whose name was Coffman were hunting for "bee trees" in the woods about two miles north of the Pigeon Roost settlement and were surprised and killed by a party of Indians. This party of Indians, which consisted of ten or twelve warriors, nearly all of whom were Shawnee, then attacked the Pigeon Roost settlement about sunset and, in the space of about one hour, they killed one man, five women and sixteen children.


Check out the story on what happened there..and who was involved.
PigeonRoost.html
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:16 AM   #69
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what you want to do here is notice the description...match it with the Fort Christina description of women (which was Saponi women).

In August of 1766, Charles Woodmason became an itinerant minister for the Anglican Church (Church of England) to the Carolina Backcountry. He kept a journal of some of the years of his ministry. He was originally from the London area of England; came to South Carolina and was a planter and merchant; and then returned to England to be ordained prior to returning to the Colony to begin his ministry. In his journal, he described the living conditions of the people living in the Upcountry as follows: "In all these excursions, I am obliged to carry my own Necessaries with me - as Bisket - Cheese - a Pint of Rum - Some Sugar - Chocolate - Tea, or Coffee - With Cups Knife Spoon Plate Towels and Linen. So that I go always heavy loaded like a trooper. If I did not, I should starve. Never will I be out again from home for a month together to take the Chance of things -- As in many places have nought but a Gourd to drink out of; Not a plate knive or Spoon, a Glass, Cup, or any thing -- It is well if they can get some body linen, and some have not even that. They are so burthen'd with Young Children, that the Women cannot attend both House and Field -- And many live by hunting, and killing Deer -- There's not a Cabin but has 10 or 12 Young Children in it -- When the boys are 18 and girls 14 they marry -- so that in many cabins you will see 10 or 15 Children. Children and Grand Children of one Size -- and the mother looking as Young as the Daughter. Yet these Poor People enjoy good Health; and are generally cut off by Endemic or Epidemic Disorders, which when they happen, makes Great Havock among them." [entry January 1768]. Later he adds, "their poverty is so great, that were they to offer me a fee, my Heart would not let me take it." In September of 1768, he wrote: " It would be a Great Novelty to a Londoner to see one of these Congregations -- The men with only a thin shirt and pair of Breeches or Trousers on -- barelegged and barefooted -- The Women bareheaded, barelegged and barefoot with only a thin Shift and under Petticoat -- Yet I cannot break them of this -- for the heat of the Weather admits not any but thin Cloathing -- I can hardly bear the weight of Whig and Gown, during service. The Young Women have a most uncommon Practise, which I cannot break them off. They draw their Shift as tight as possible to the Body, and pin it close, to shew the fineness of their Breasts, and slender waists (for they are generally fine shaped) and draw their Petticoat close to their Hips to shew the firmness of their limbs -- so that they might as well be in Puri Naturalibus -- Indeed Nakedness is not censurable or indecent here, and they expose themselves often quite naked, without Ceremony -- Rubbing themselves and their Hair with Bears Oil and tying it up behind in a bunch like Indians -- being hardly one degree removed from them."


The church he is talking about is Mt.Zion in upcountry SC in 1766


After the 1755 treaty, the Upcountry saw its beginnings of white settlement. The first settlers to come into the Upcountry were traders and those associated with the old forts. The second influx came from families that migrated from Pennsylvania, Maryland and Virginia. One example of these is the Babb family in my family tree. The family of Joseph Babb settled on the borders of the Cherokee lands in 1767 in present Laurens county. Later, Joseph and his wife, Mary McCool, would become patriots in the American Revolution. The third influx of families came to this area after the Revolutionary War. Near the course of present US Interstate 85, was an old Indian trail, which by the time of the American Revolution, was large enough to move a wagon and an oxen team. An example of this migration is the Foster family in my family tree. William Foster, or Major "Billie", as he was called, moved to the Upcountry in 1791 from Amelia county, Virginia, and settled a mile or so east of Mt. Zion Baptist Church, which was near Fort Prince in the Spartanburg District. He had been an officer in the Revolutionary War, and received a land grant as a result of his service. There were many other families that moved also as a result of this. Another family in my family tree to move here after the war was the Cantrells. John Cantrell had served his country as a patriot and moved to the Spartanburg district at the close of the war. His son, William married a local Upcountry girl, Elizabeth Jane Turner, the daughter of James Turner, Sr. who lived near Buck Creek Baptist Church. More will be said about James Turner later herein. Many of the families were of Scotch-Irish descent (those protestants that moved from Scotland to Ireland due to religious persecution and then to the colonies).
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:20 AM   #70
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27 Sept 1728
"Sir:
The 27th of September John Carter brought Negro Cofey to my house, as he says, by your orders, for me to examine concerning what the Saponys have told him about the white people, which I have done, and he tells me: that Great George told him that John Sauano and a fellow called Ben Harrison was gone to the Cotobers to fetch one hundred of them to come and see why their Indians was put in prison, and if Capt. Tom was hanged they would carry their wives and children over the Roanoke River and then they would drive the white people and negros as far as James River, and he says that Tony Mack told him that if Pyah was hanged he and the Cotobers would come and take revenge of the English, and he says that Sapony Tom told him if his son Harry Erwin was hanged they would kill you and three or four more Gentlemen and then go off," The original document is held by the Virginia Historical Society, Richmond, VA and will give you a copy of the original.

In 1730, "William Bohannon came into court and made oath that about twenty-six of the Sapony Indians that inhabit Colonel Spotswood's land in Fox's neck go about and do a great deal of mischief by firing the woods; more especially on the 17th day of April last whereby several farrows of pigs were burnt in their beds, and that he verily believes that one of the Indians shot at him the same day, the bullet entering a tree within four feet of him; that he saw the Indian about one hundred yards from him, and no game of any sort between them; that the Indian after firing his gun stood in a stooping manner very studdy [steady] so that he could hardly discern him from a stump, that he has lost more of his pigs than usual since the coming of the said Indians; which is ordered to be certified to the General Assembly. " Orange county VA

1742 ""Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manicassa, Capt. Tom, Isaac, Harry,
Blind Tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack. Indians
being brought before the court by precept under the hands and seals of Wm
Russell & Edward Spencer, Gent. for terrifying one Lawrence Strother and on
suspicion of stealing hoggs........"

" The above put up security individually. It was ordered that their guns be
taken from them till they are ready to depart out of this county, "they
having declared their intentions to the Court to depart this colony within a
week" (Orange Co..VA Order Book 3 1741-1743. 309) Orange Co Va Microfilm Reel
31, Va
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:23 AM   #71
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"25 Jan 1745 Louisa County, Virginia Court: William Hall, Samuel Collins, William Collins, Samuel Bunch, George Gibson, Benjamin Brannum, Thomas Gibson, & William Donothan appear to answer an indictment for concealing tithables. Plead not guilty, Case continued."


Now the treaty the Saponi signed....they was NOT supposed to be taxable.....so of course they are going to plead not guilty.

1754:
Granville—Willm Eaton Esqr Coll: of Granville county His Regimt consists of 8 companys 734 besides officers 2 Captns Simms & Jones are moved away the others Resigned He thinks the fines on delinquents should be fixed by a Court Martial.
No arms or ammunition in the Stores There are about 12 or 14 Sapona men and as many women & children in the county Major Payne by Col: Eaton for Granville county recommends John Martin to be Captn over part of Sugar Jones Company & Willm Hawkins Captn over the other part above Shaws Road and John Hawkins Captn over part of Richd Coleman's Company & Willm Johnston over part of Willm Harris Company & Willm Paton Captn instead of Benjamin Sims moved away Capt Hursts Troop with officers 32. Report concerning the militia in each county of North Carolina
Creator: No Author 1754 Volume 5, Pages 161 - 163. Found on Page 162.

April 19 1755:
Abstracts of the Minutes of the
Court of Pleas and Quarter
Sessions Rowan County,
North Carolina 1753-1762
II:72 19 April 1755
Esquires present: Jas Carter, Jno Handby, Alexr Osburn & Thos Potts. … Whereas John Auston a Saponia Indian and Mary a Susquhanah Indian and Thos a Cattaaba applied for a pass to the Cataba Nation being now on their Journey to conclude a Genl Peace with ye Catabas in behalf of the Sd Nation and also presented 3 Belts of Wampum to Sd Court by which the sd Treaty is to be concluded.
Copyright Jo White Linn 1977
Mrs. Stahle Linn, Jr.
Box 1948
Salisbury, N.C. 28144
Stamped (Carnegie Public Library, Washington C. H., Ohio 43160)"

1761:
A 1761 report counted 20 Saponi warriors in the area of Granville County, NC
Quere 13 What is the number of the Indians inhabiting those parts of America lyeing within or bounding upon your Province? What Contracts or Treaties of Peace have been made with them and are now in force? What Trade is carried on with them and under what Regulations and how have these Regulations been established?
Answer The only Tribes or remains of Tribes of Indians residing in this Province are the Tuskerora Sapona Meherin and Maramuskito Indians. The Tuskerora have about 100 fighting men the Saponas and Meherrin Indians about 20 each and the Maramuskitos about 7 or 8. the first 3 are situated in the Middle of the Colony upon and near Roanoak and have by Law 10,000 acres of Land allotted to them in Lord Granvilles District they live chiefly by hunting and are in perfect friendship with the Inhabitants

The Catauba Indians who are also in close friendship with the Inhabitants resided upon the Cataubas river near our Western Frontier near the Boundary Line in 35° No Latitude proposed to be laid out betwixt this and the South Province they consisted within these few years of about 300 fighting men but last year the small pox ravaged in their Towns which made them desert them and leave their sick behind them to perish; by an account from their King Haglar to me they are reduced to 60 fighting and about as many old men and boys and a suitable number of Women, upon which and the Cherokee war they removed farther West upon or near the Boundary Line where they have had a Town laid out for them in South Carolina but allege that they are still within this Government Mr. Glenn wantonly promised them a District of 30 Miles radius round their Towns, which wod have contained about 1,800,000 acres, but now as they are reduced I suppose less than 10,000 acres will content them.
page 616
Report by Arthur Dobbs concerning general conditions in North Carolina
Creator: Arthur Dobbs (1689-1765)
1761
Volume 6
[B. P. R. O. North Carolina B. T. Vol. 14. E. 53.]
THE COLONY, ITS CLIMATE, SOIL, POPULATION, GOVERNMENT,
RESOURCES, &c.
An Answer to the several Queries sent by the Lords Commissioners for Trade and Plantations.
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:28 AM   #72
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NC Newspaper article on drury dobbins..son of Susanna Collins of Granville NC

Notice his birth date and match that with the above section which talked about mt zion in upcountry sc.

Notice what church it mentions with drury...mt zion.

Notice his description...dark eyes dark hair.
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:38 AM   #73
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Spartanburg sc history:
This land was for centuries a cherished hunting ground of the Catawba and Cherokee tribes, which occupied land east and west of this area, respectively. This distant heritage can be glimpsed in some of the remaining natural features, often neglected and in need of help, that dot the landscape.
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:53 AM   #74
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Cate Collings was called an "Indian Woman" servant of William Gibbs

when she was summoned by the March 1765 Hyde County Court [Minutes

II:113].


Hyde Co., North Carolina - 1820 Census
only two households with the collins/collens/collings
one of them is susanna collens as head of household over 45 years old with no kids...she is not there in 1830.

Hyde County 1820 Census (introduction)

Rutherford nc 1810 census
you find the spellings colling/collens/collins
(susanna collins is living with william dobbins...william dies in 1812 making her a widow)

http://files.usgwarchives.org/nc/rut...s/ruth1830.txt

1830 rutherford census Susanna Collins is living with drury dobbins.

Drury dobbins family bible which is on public display states susanna came from granville nc. It also states him and his siblings was taught at a "old fields" school".
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:56 AM   #75
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Guion miller application. Was rejected due to the fact that granville nc was Saponi area not cherokee area.

My name is Nancy Holifield I am 57 years old I live in cobb county Ga. I claim my indian descent through my father.My mother is a white woman.My father claimed the indian.My grandfathers name was Drury Dobbins that was my fathers name also.My husband is a white man.My father was born and raised in Rutherford county NC.He died in 1892 he was 65.He would be 81.My grandfather was born in Virginia.He died in Rutherford NC.1851 or 1852.Dont know when he left Virgina. My great grandfather was Jesse Dobbins.People think I am a white woman in my community.W.S. is my brother he is married to a white woman. It has her X
She could not read or write.

Jesse was Drury's brother.
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Old 05-26-2008, 03:13 AM   #76
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Now....lets go back for a minute and lets look at another enemy of the Shawnee....the Catawba.....the catawba was who the Saponi went to see alot....and I've already proved this above.

So you can go ahead and google who the shawnee enemies was if you want.


And I've already showed that the shawnee did some serious damage to the collings.

now lets look at who the shawnee was.

Lewis Full (Our Line), born abt. 1765, Pendleton, Virgina (WV), married Jane Collins born abt. 1768.. Lewis Full was the first settler on Fulls Fork (Known as Childers Fork). His wife Jane Collins was the daughter of Rupe Collins b. abt. 1742 and Tecumoplas Collins, the only sister of the Shawnee Indian Chief Tecumseh: "The mother of Jane Collins full is said to have retained her Indian name after her marriage to Mr. Collins."

These collins came from VA..potomac valley....
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Old 05-26-2008, 03:22 AM   #77
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Now remember them Saponi records stateing Saponi in Granville nc in 1755 and 1761.....lets look and see who was was there.....in drury dobbins' family bible which is on public display in NC it states his mother susanna Collins came from granville...and the guion miller application already states this.

The Collins were living in Virginia as Indians before they migrated to North Carolina, and they stole the name Collins from white settlers" as stated in interview: Will Allen Dromgoole's 1890 interview with Calloway Collins.

The 1750 tax list of Granville County, NC list the following: William Bowling 1 tithe, James Bowlin 1 tithe, Gideon Bunch 2 tithes (Micajer and William), Thomas Collins Sr. 1 tithe, Samuel Collins 1 tithe, John Collins 1 tithe, Thomas Gibson with tithes Charles and George Gibson.

"Land Grants from the Earl of Granville to the earliest settlers, The Granville Dist. Of N.C. 1748-1763 Vols 2 & 4 by Hofman." 29 Oct 1751 -Grant to William Churton, 640 acres on the south side of Flatt River joining John Collins on the Rocky Branch. Grant is for warrant issued to Thomas Gibson (#3775) 1752. 250 acres to Thomas Gibson on the Flatt River. 28 Oct 1752 640 acres to Joseph Collins on the South West side of the Flatt River Witness- Thomas Collins and James Lilkemper.

A 1755 Tax list of Orange County, NC. Gedion Bunch 1 tithe(mulatto) Micajer Bunch 1 tithe (mulatto) Thomas Collins 3 tithes (mulatto) Samuel Collins 2 tithes (mulatto) John Collins 1 tithe (mulatto) Moses Ridley (Riddle) 1 tithe & wife Mary (mulattoes) Thomas Gibson 3 tithes (mulatto) Charles Gibson 1 tithe (mulatto) George Gibson 1 tithe (mulatto) Mager Gibson 1 tithe (mulatto).

1761-700 acres to Thomas Collins on Dials Creek of the Flatt River. Chainbearers: George Collins and Paul Collins (mulattoes)

Some of these old pioneers may not have known all the rules and did not obtain a deed, notice who lost their improvements in this deed. John Brown-Warrants 26 Dec 1760, 700 acres on the Flatt River, includes Bolins, Riddles and Collins Improvements. Surveyed 13 April 1761, deed 14 Oct 1761.

Caswell County was formed from the northern part of Orange County, North Carolina in 1777 it included part of the Flatt River and part of that river remained in Orange County. 1777 tax list. Paul Collins 1 tithe, Martin Collins 1 tithe, Middleston Collins 1 tithe, Obadiah Collins 1 tithe, John collins 1 tithe.

Thomas Collins Sr. may have died in Orange County around 1770 but, most of his children migrated to the New River area of Virginia and North Carolina. The Collins and Gibsons began selling their land on the Flatt River in 1767-70 and moved to the back woods sections of the New River where some were listed on tax records in Fincastle County, Va., as "living on Indian Lands"

The deed records of Thomas Gibson land sale in Orange County, establishes him as the same Thomas who sold his land on the Pamunkey River in Louisa County in 1749 when he made his mark "T".
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Old 05-26-2008, 03:25 AM   #78
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We know the Saponi and Catawba was friends...we just got the link with the collins and Dobbins...and we got the collins link to the Saponi. Here was will show the Collins line marrying into the Catawba line.

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Old 05-26-2008, 03:36 AM   #79
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South Carolina Collins....from the same granville Collins family, he is about the same age drury dobbins was.



The Collins which left Granville nc to enter Newman's ridge Tennesse.



more of the Granville NC collins that went to newman's ridge Tennesse.



My father
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Old 05-26-2008, 03:44 AM   #80
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Now lets go back to the jeffries/jeffers/jeffreys

Feb. 1897, U.S. Senate Document #144, entitled "The Catawba Tribe of Indians", the report says that "Dr. Joseph McDowell, of Fairmont, GA, under date of October, 1872, stated that the Indians referred to, and asking relief of the Government, were "Catawba Indians, and 81 in number." Dr. McDowell (who had married one of the Guy women and wrote at least two letters to the Indian Office on behalf of her people) also provided a list of the names and ages of the individuals whom he said wished the government to assist them in moving west to Indian Territory. The report further states that "William Guy, of Granville County, Ga (sic NC), and Simon Jeffries, of Bellville, Virginia, Catawba Indians, served five years in the Army and were honorably discharged, and these people are their descendants." He further states in his letter of October 1869, addressed to Eli Parker, U.S. Commissioner of Indian Affairs, that "I take the Liberty of addressing to you a few lines on behalf of a remnant of the tribe of Catawba Indians…Some 60 or 70 years since they left their tribe and went to Greenville County, Virginia, and then removed to Orange County, North Carolina…they sold out in Orange and moved to Macon County, N.C. where they purchased land and remained every since."

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