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Old 08-28-2006, 02:27 PM   #1
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Is this stuff stolen???

I hope this is the right spot for this. I'm very new to this site and it loads VERY slowly on our dial up connection, so I haven't really looked through it like I would like.

Hubby and I like to go to flea Markets, and went to the one in Bargersville, Indiana last Sunday Morning. It had the usual flea market stuff---from trashy to cool. One booth set up there has me REALLY wondering. There was a man and woman with a few tables and a tarp on the ground, and TONS of amazing OLD stuff stuffed into glass boxes and dangled over this and that. Several OLD Lakota (?) and Cheyenne beaded and quilled pipe bags, a pistol bag, strike a light bag, rawhide quiver and a pouch (that I rescued off the mud, where someone had stepped on it), pipe hawk heads and stone axe heads and arrow heads and trade silver.....stuff you would find in a museum. I asked the price of some of the bags ($1,500-$2,000) and the Hudson Bay trade silver Cross of Lorraine ($300). I told him he needed to go to Friendship or somewhere where they would appreciate such things, and he said they "Didn't do shows like that." ????? OLD Wool vests decorated with beadwork, and some Civil war stuff, knives and sheaths.....OH MY.

We have done lotsa living History events, have spent lotsa time at Friendship, are members of the Eideljorg Museum in Indianapolis, so we've know a bit about such things.....and it's bugging the begeebers outta me. WHY would they be bringing this sort of stuff in a hodgepodge jumble to a run of the mill weekend Flea Market?????? Do you know of a collecter, museum, etc. That might be missing stuff like this??? What would you do?
Leann
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Old 08-28-2006, 02:52 PM   #2
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Did you...?

I agree it sounds outta place at best. Did you take pictures.
If you didnt, too bad. but if you did. This site might be a good place to post it. If it is truely old stuff takein without permission. Someone here may be able to identify it.

In the future, if something like this "raises a flag" take a picture of the stuff and the vendor. Then there is a record. Many people have lost items over the years, but voluntarily and involuntarily. It is good that you are observant enough to notice.

2ndly, Lets say, someone does know of this "old stuff", and would like to find it, do you know who or where the vendor is from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeannB
I hope this is the right spot for this. I'm very new to this site and it loads VERY slowly on our dial up connection, so I haven't really looked through it like I would like.

Hubby and I like to go to flea Markets, and went to the one in Bargersville, Indiana last Sunday Morning. It had the usual flea market stuff---from trashy to cool. One booth set up there has me REALLY wondering. There was a man and woman with a few tables and a tarp on the ground, and TONS of amazing OLD stuff stuffed into glass boxes and dangled over this and that. Several OLD Lakota (?) and Cheyenne beaded and quilled pipe bags, a pistol bag, strike a light bag, rawhide quiver and a pouch (that I rescued off the mud, where someone had stepped on it), pipe hawk heads and stone axe heads and arrow heads and trade silver.....stuff you would find in a museum. I asked the price of some of the bags ($1,500-$2,000) and the Hudson Bay trade silver Cross of Lorraine ($300). I told him he needed to go to Friendship or somewhere where they would appreciate such things, and he said they "Didn't do shows like that." ????? OLD Wool vests decorated with beadwork, and some Civil war stuff, knives and sheaths.....OH MY.

We have done lotsa living History events, have spent lotsa time at Friendship, are members of the Eideljorg Museum in Indianapolis, so we've know a bit about such things.....and it's bugging the begeebers outta me. WHY would they be bringing this sort of stuff in a hodgepodge jumble to a run of the mill weekend Flea Market?????? Do you know of a collecter, museum, etc. That might be missing stuff like this??? What would you do?
Leann
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Old 08-28-2006, 04:01 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeannB
Do you know of a collecter, museum, etc. That might be missing stuff like this??? What would you do?
Leann

Leann,

A better question would be,

"Do you know of an Indian family who might be missing their ancestors belongings?" *L

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Actually, some artifacts are stolen and are listed in museums and collector trade publications.

The majority of Indian artifacts are undocumented.

A lot of times they were acquired by unscrupulous means!
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Old 08-28-2006, 04:09 PM   #4
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Nope, I didn't have my camera----doggone it, anyway. It caught me completely off guard. He didn't ahve any business cards or flyers, none of the things that a dealer would have; he was slurring his words, too, kinda out of it. Don't know if he had a legit medical condition, or was under the influence of sumpthin'. I figured folks here would have a better idea of what to do about it....
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Old 08-28-2006, 04:35 PM   #5
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It might be that some family is missing their things. And it might be the arrowheads, etc. came from a dig. I thought museum 'cause the guy said he had gotten and item (the pipe hawk head) in a musem trade deal. Next time, I'll have a camera....maybe go back next weekend...
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:41 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeannB
...And it might be the arrowheads, etc. came from a dig. I thought museum 'cause the guy said he had gotten and item (the pipe hawk head) in a musem trade deal.

Leann,

That is my point.

At one point these artifacts were functional to someone, tribe, individual or family.

Indian people have many beliefs about the articles of the deceased. One belief is that they should be left alone.

Most people, museums, archeologists, collectors and dealers disregard these beliefs.

Call it greed? Call it in the name of science? Call it collecting?


I call it "inconsideration."
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:58 PM   #7
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Good answers Whome and thanks for telling us about this LeannB!

I hope this stuff find its way to someone who will honor it.
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Old 08-28-2006, 06:31 PM   #8
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^ditto
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Old 08-30-2006, 05:33 PM   #9
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Yikes! Most people don't go to flea markets to buy a $2000 anything!
Now if that vendor's items are not actually old and authentic but are newer mass-produced reproduction things made to look old then this situation might not be quite so strange.
My other question is if the vendor knew enough to research what prices to put on this things, and they are that valuable in his mind, then why does he not care about them being jumbled in a box and tromped through the mud?
Too bad there are no pics. Sounds interesting.
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:30 PM   #10
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"[QUOTE=Czechy]Yikes! Most people don't go to flea markets to buy a $2000 anything! "

NO Kiddin'! if I have $40.00 on a flea market trip, I figure I am in high clover, LOL!

"Now if that vendor's items are not actually old and authentic but are newer mass-produced reproduction things made to look old then this situation might not be quite so strange.
My other question is if the vendor knew enough to research what prices to put on this things, and they are that valuable in his mind, then why does he not care about them being jumbled in a box and tromped through the mud?"

That's one of the things that rang alarm bells off in my head.
I am going to try and halk Hubby into going back next weekend and see if the vender is still there. Maybe we can find something more out.
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Old 08-31-2006, 04:59 PM   #11
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If anything I would ask to take pictures of the items, and perhaps get contact information from them. From the general description, some of these items could be protected under ARPA, (Archeological Resource Protection Act) and possibly NAGPRA (Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act). these Items sound old but could be from burial grounds, and be regarded as funerally objects. Under ARPA it is illegal to possess, and or transport these items across state lines. The next question would be who would like to pursue it? Because this can be a long drawn out process... however, if nothing is done and it is sold to whomever then it may be lost forever.
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Old 09-01-2006, 04:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singing Eagle
Good answers Whome and thanks for telling us about this LeannB!

I hope this stuff find its way to someone who will honor it.

SingingE,

One point of clarification...

Stolen? From who?

From museum/collectors OR FROM INDIANS/FIRST NATIONS?

(here's where "which came first, the chicken or the egg - comes in")...


In 1883 Indian Religious Crimes Code was enacted. This code was also known as the “Civilization Regulations.” Enforced in reservations as Bureau of Indian Affairs policy, Indian ceremonies were banned, religious practices disrupted, and sacred objects were destroyed or confiscated. Indian ceremonial activities were prohibited under threats of imprisonment and/or withholding of rations. The Secretary of the Interior issued this Code of Regulations in 1884, 1894 and 1904 through Indian Affairs Commissioner's circulars and Indian agent directives. In turn, Indian superintendents and agents implemented the code until 1936.


"Thousands of these precious ceremonial objects that were confiscated from Indian/First Nations people are now in the collections of museums and collectors."


Confiscated = STOLEN !!!!
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Last edited by WhoMe; 09-01-2006 at 04:45 PM..
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Old 09-01-2006, 08:52 PM   #13
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HA!!! So much for freedom of religion.....
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