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OLChemist 02-08-2018 04:43 PM

The Term Native American and Indigenous Peoples the Caribbean and Lat. America
 
I'm trying to understand something I've been seeing in some discussions on Powwows.com recently. A number of folks, who are members of tribe indigenous the areas of the Americas outside the USA, have been discussing the term "Native American." They have been asking and even arguing a bit about the meaning and, by extension, the boundaries of the term. I feel that somehow in folks from tribes outside the US, there is some additional dimension to the term.

So, I ask them:

What does the term "Native American" mean to you?

What does it mean to be included within the definition? Excluded?

Do you assign some political or legal import to being included?

wardancer 02-08-2018 05:19 PM

:nono: I don't know anything about anything ! :nono:

JiuJitsuFighter 02-08-2018 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1634912)
I'm trying to understand something I've been seeing in some discussions on Powwows.com recently. A number of folks, who are members of tribe indigenous the areas of the Americas outside the USA, have been discussing the term "Native American." They have been asking and even arguing a bit about the meaning and, by extension, the boundaries of the term. I feel that somehow in folks from tribes outside the US, there is some additional dimension to the term.

So, I ask them:

What does the term "Native American" mean to you?

What does it mean to be included within the definition? Excluded?

Do you assign some political or legal import to being included?

Native american to me is someone native to the Americas. To be included in the definition to me would be to have ancestors who originated on this continent. Excluded? To me excluded would be if your family did not originate on this continent. Of course this all means nothing if you believe in the migration story across the bering strait.
Nothing political or legal about the native question/term, I was just curious how native people from the U.S. viewed people from Mexico guatemala area. In my opinion indigenous people from north america, central america, south america, this entire continent are Native americans. What do you folks think?

Joe's Dad 02-08-2018 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wardancer (Post 1634914)
:nono: I don't know anything about anything ! :nono:

And I don't know nuttin' about nuttin'.

JiuJitsuFighter 02-09-2018 01:18 AM

Thatís it? Nothing about nothing?
Say whatís on your mind. No need to hold back folks. I truthfully ask things to get STRAIGHT answers. And when Iím asked I give them.
Trust me I deal with societies best and donít get my feelings hurt lol Iím sure I can handle a little internet discussion without getting hurt.

subeeds 02-09-2018 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuFighter (Post 1634925)
That’s it? Nothing about nothing?
Say what’s on your mind. No need to hold back folks. I truthfully ask things to get STRAIGHT answers. And when I’m asked I give them.
Trust me I deal with societies best and don’t get my feelings hurt lol I’m sure I can handle a little internet discussion without getting hurt.

You're new here. Don't mind JD and WD. Most of us don't. :lol: Good to see you JD. 'Bout time you start hangin' out with us again.

JiuJitsuFighter 02-09-2018 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subeeds (Post 1634928)
You're new here. Don't mind JD and WD. Most of us don't. :lol: Good to see you JD. 'Bout time you start hangin' out with us again.

Hey! Thanks man, or woman...I donít mind wd or jd im sure their probably elders and have the right to be themselves.. Iím sure we will be friends one day lol I might even get accepted as a real Native American hahahaha
But really, I appreciate jd, wd, subeeds,olchemist and everyone whoís bothered to take the time to reply to anything Iíve written. you all couldíve just ignored me.. and that doesnít mean to ignore anything I right from now on hahahaha
I think I like this grumpy group lol jk (about the grumpy part)

JiuJitsuFighter 02-09-2018 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subeeds (Post 1634928)
You're new here. Don't mind JD and WD. Most of us don't. :lol: Good to see you JD. 'Bout time you start hangin' out with us again.

By the way this comment seemed like it meant soo much more because the first picture I saw after reading it was E.T. Pointing at me.

OLChemist 02-09-2018 10:58 AM

I'm not an elder like JD and Wd, I'm just a lady geezer, LOL. But, over my years associating with intelligent life on this planet and in academia, which may not qualify as intelligent life (j/k), I've heard this term used to describe different populations of peoples indigenous to the Americas. It seems like every group and governmental agency draws the boundaries in different places.

Just a sampling from the internet:

"a member of any of the indigenous peoples of the western hemisphere; especially : a Native American of North America and especially the U.S." -- Merriam-Webster

"a member of any of the indigenous peoples of the Americas." -- Google Dictionary

"a member of any of the groups of people that lived in North America before the Europeans arrived." -- Cambridge Dictionary

In my experience, most Native people (non academics), who speak American English (not Canadian English), use the term to mean people who are descendants of populations indigenous to per-contact North America, who's traditional territories fell within the contemporary boundaries of the continental US. The term is, as the quotes below indicate, interchangeable with Indian or American Indian.

"Usage Note: Native American is now fully established in American English as an equivalent of Indian, being acceptable in all contemporary contexts and preferred in many...." -- American Heritage Dictionary

Indian (n) - "A member of any of the Native American peoples except the Eskimos, Aleuts, and Inuits."-- American Heritage Dictionary

In the US, the term American Indian has a legal dimension related to governmental obligations to citizens of tribes which are signatory to various treaties with the US and preceding British colonial government. The exact parsing of these boundaries is complex and in some cases context dependent.

It has been my experience that many folks who descend from peoples indigenous to lands south of the US border, tend to get very hung up on whether my (or some other Indian's) personal Euler diagram for the term includes or excludes them. In some cases, it is my perception that this arises from the belief that I'm somehow saying they're not a "real" indigenous to the Americas people. In a few cases it seems to me that the tension has originated with belief that if they were included within the "Native American" rubric, they would be entitled to the services extended to citizens of federally recognized tribes. It seems that the more distant the connection to their Native culture, the greater the emotion involved.

Now, I accept that perhaps my perceptions are in error and influenced by my own biases. Hence, I am asking some of those who have repeatedly questioned the definition of "Native American" to share no just a dictionary definition, but the larger meaning.


I will shut my yap, after a final observation: Almost every time I've been with Native people, with strong ties to their cultures, they meet, greet and connect by identifying tribe and mutual social or kinship connections

wardancer 02-09-2018 11:05 AM

Some of us are grumpy ! LOL I'm just not into all this "Politically Correct" bu!!chit ! And I'm just an older , I don't qualify as an Elder . I am Cheyenne , Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho to be exact. I'm not ndn , Indian , Indigenous , Native American , American Native , or American Indian. I am Cheyenne. The P.C. movement has gone over the edge of sanity. People are trying too hard to not hurt somebodies feelings !
If what you say is correct , and I have no reason to believe otherwise , then you sir are from the south. You come from the native population from those areas you mentioned , so apparently that is how you identify. Does it really matter what I think ? I certainly don't care ! I am Cheyenne. I dance Northern Traditional , I am a retired Bricklayer , I build regalia and bead. I try to be as honest and good as modern society allows. That's who I am , no more , no less ! Oh yeah , I consider Joe'sDad to be my friend as well as Ol'C , Subeeds , Gilisi and many others on this site !The world is not so big that powwows.commers don't run into each other from time to time. I have met many members at various powwows around the country. Now you know who I am , and my opinion of the P.C.Movement !~ LOL Now , in my opinion , prior to "discovery" there were NO Such Things as Mexicans ! Only different tribes of people native to that area. There were no borders other than territorial lines defined by those tribes. I'll pizz some more off by saying "in my opinion , that the "Mexican People" of today are only mixed blood natives from being conquered by invaders ! Now , there it is ! LOL

OLChemist 02-09-2018 11:14 AM

LOL. And WD illustrates my final point in under 10 minutes, LOL

JiuJitsuFighter 02-09-2018 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wardancer (Post 1634941)
Some of us are grumpy ! LOL I'm just not into all this "Politically Correct" bu!!chit ! And I'm just an older , I don't qualify as an Elder . I am Cheyenne , Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho to be exact. I'm not ndn , Indian , Indigenous , Native American , American Native , or American Indian. I am Cheyenne. The P.C. movement has gone over the edge of sanity. People are trying too hard to not hurt somebodies feelings !
If what you say is correct , and I have no reason to believe otherwise , then you sir are from the south. You come from the native population from those areas you mentioned , so apparently that is how you identify. Does it really matter what I think ? I certainly don't care ! I am Cheyenne. I dance Northern Traditional , I am a retired Bricklayer , I build regalia and bead. I try to be as honest and good as modern society allows. That's who I am , no more , no less ! Oh yeah , I consider Joe'sDad to be my friend as well as Ol'C , Subeeds , Gilisi and many others on this site !The world is not so big that powwows.commers don't run into each other from time to time. I have met many members at various powwows around the country. Now you know who I am , and my opinion of the P.C.Movement !~ LOL Now , in my opinion , prior to "discovery" there were NO Such Things as Mexicans ! Only different tribes of people native to that area. There were no borders other than territorial lines defined by those tribes. I'll pizz some more off by saying "in my opinion , that the "Mexican People" of today are only mixed blood natives from being conquered by invaders ! Now , there it is ! LOL

I tried to hit the like button but it didnít work. I actually agree with everything you said.

JiuJitsuFighter 02-09-2018 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLChemist (Post 1634946)
LOL. And WD illustrates my final point in under 10 minutes, LOL

Plain English works best lol dumb it down a bit lol
And it sounds better coming from wd for some reason.

JiuJitsuFighter 02-09-2018 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wardancer (Post 1634941)
Some of us are grumpy ! LOL I'm just not into all this "Politically Correct" bu!!chit ! And I'm just an older , I don't qualify as an Elder . I am Cheyenne , Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho to be exact. I'm not ndn , Indian , Indigenous , Native American , American Native , or American Indian. I am Cheyenne. The P.C. movement has gone over the edge of sanity. People are trying too hard to not hurt somebodies feelings !
If what you say is correct , and I have no reason to believe otherwise , then you sir are from the south. You come from the native population from those areas you mentioned , so apparently that is how you identify. Does it really matter what I think ? I certainly don't care ! I am Cheyenne. I dance Northern Traditional , I am a retired Bricklayer , I build regalia and bead. I try to be as honest and good as modern society allows. That's who I am , no more , no less ! Oh yeah , I consider Joe'sDad to be my friend as well as Ol'C , Subeeds , Gilisi and many others on this site !The world is not so big that powwows.commers don't run into each other from time to time. I have met many members at various powwows around the country. Now you know who I am , and my opinion of the P.C.Movement !~ LOL Now , in my opinion , prior to "discovery" there were NO Such Things as Mexicans ! Only different tribes of people native to that area. There were no borders other than territorial lines defined by those tribes. I'll pizz some more off by saying "in my opinion , that the "Mexican People" of today are only mixed blood natives from being conquered by invaders ! Now , there it is ! LOL

Wardancer, serious question. Do you have any European blood at all?
The majority of my blood is Indian blood but I do have a small amount of Spaniard blood from my great X5 grandmother who was from Spain. So correct Iíam a little mixed. But I identify with the part that makes up the most of me. Not the 10% of me or less thatís spanish blood. That would be ridiculous lol. Who would do that? &#129354&#129354

OLChemist 02-09-2018 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuFighter (Post 1634949)
Plain English works best lol dumb it down a bit lol

This is my plain English.:angel: Come to my lab and we can talk programing, lasers, optics, spectroscopy and/or quantum mechanics. Bet I can make you beg for my plain English, LOL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuFighter (Post 1634949)
And it sounds better coming from wd for some reason.

The curse of the woman in the hard sciences or computer science; it always sounds better or, at least, more authoritative when coming from a man, LOL. I've considered having Darth Vader do voice over on some of my talks. It would improve the attention span and the Q&A session would be a breeze. "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

wardancer 02-09-2018 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiuJitsuFighter (Post 1634950)
Wardancer, serious question. Do you have any European blood at all?
The majority of my blood is Indian blood but I do have a small amount of Spaniard blood from my great X5 grandmother who was from Spain. So correct Iíam a little mixed. But I identify with the part that makes up the most of me. Not the 10% of me or less thatís spanish blood. That would be ridiculous lol. Who would do that? &#129354&#129354

Yes actually I do , On my mothers side. Scots/Irish is how it's described though it's actually Scottish. I have researched it a bit , found the family crest. Kinda interesting.....but not as interesting as knowing my G.Grandfather sat on his horse at the age of 10, on top of a hill , watching the battle of the Little Big Horn. We are who we identify as. Everyone who knows me knows who I am. In non-PC terms I'm that ndn guy down on the corner ! LOL:angel:

gilisi 02-09-2018 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wardancer (Post 1634953)
Yes actually I do , On my mothers side. Scots/Irish is how it's described though it's actually Scottish. I have researched it a bit , found the family crest. Kinda interesting.....but not as interesting as knowing my G.Grandfather sat on his horse at the age of 10, on top of a hill , watching the battle of the Little Big Horn. We are who we identify as. Everyone who knows me knows who I am. In non-PC terms I'm that ndn guy down on the corner ! LOL:angel:

Does that mean your great-grandma is a Scottish princess?!!!

wardancer 02-09-2018 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gilisi (Post 1634957)
Does that mean your great-grandma is a Scottish princess?!!!

That IS the rumor ! :laughing: But I can't prove it ! :rofl:

OLChemist 02-09-2018 01:47 PM

I'm gonna need therapy to erase the image of WD in his feather hat and kilt. Hope you got better knees than most Scotsmen I know.

JiuJitsuFighter 02-09-2018 01:51 PM

[QUOTE=OLChemist;1634952]This is my plain English.:angel: Come to my lab and we can talk programing, lasers, optics, spectroscopy and/or quantum mechanics. Bet I can make you beg for my plain English, LOL.




The curse of the woman in the hard sciences or computer science; it always sounds better or, at least, more authoritative when coming from a man, LOL. I've considered having Darth Vader do voice over on some of my talks. It would improve the attention span and the Q&A session would be a breeze. "I find your lack of faith disturbing."[/QUOTE


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