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Old 02-09-2018, 01:53 PM   #21
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Does that mean your great-grandma is a Scottish princess?!!!
Hahahaha
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Old 02-09-2018, 01:54 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
This is my plain English. Come to my lab and we can talk programing, lasers, optics, spectroscopy and/or quantum mechanics. Bet I can make you beg for my plain English, LOL.
I don't bet against you but on you. LOL.

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The curse of the woman in the hard sciences or computer science; it always sounds better or, at least, more authoritative when coming from a man, LOL. I've considered having Darth Vader do voice over on some of my talks. It would improve the attention span and the Q&A session would be a breeze. "I find your lack of faith disturbing."
I disagree except the last sentence cause I had had the opportunity to listen to some elder ladies (Prof. Dr. rer. nat.) of the physics department at the RWTH Aachen in a personal lecture on applied mathematics about 30 years ago. LOL, I would not have bet against them either.
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Old 02-09-2018, 01:55 PM   #23
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I don’t know what button I hit replying to old chemist lol jk jk
I really don’t know what button I hit. Looks like I added to your post
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Old 02-09-2018, 03:01 PM   #24
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Sometimes these machines it seems have their own life.
Simply try out the buttons. You will learn.
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Old 02-09-2018, 03:23 PM   #25
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Ok ok ok I’ll let you brag about yourself a bit. What do you do for a living?
I'm an nerdy mixed-blood woman with patents, high powered lasers and Klingon language laser warning sign on her lab door, LOL.

I have a PhD in physical chemistry. I've taught college chemistry, worked at a National Lab, been research staff in university labs and worked in the private sector. I've researched: the fate of radioisotopes in deep rock; fullerene photophysics; gas phase collisional energy transfer; polymeric IR transmitting materials; and the fabrication verification and testing of high precision molded and freeform optics. I've built novel instrumentation for high spectral resolution measurement of very short lived species and ultra-fast phenomena, and the fabrication of large area, (sq m's) sub-micron resolution diffractive structures. The best stuff I can't tell you about.

I'm currently a member of the R&D staff at a small company where I do everything from test instrument design to simple QC, to machine tool programming to iPhone and Mac programing, to some barely competent electronics design.

Bored yet?
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Old 02-09-2018, 07:45 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
This is my plain English. Come to my lab and we can talk programing, lasers, optics, spectroscopy and/or quantum mechanics. Bet I can make you beg for my plain English, LOL.



The curse of the woman in the hard sciences or computer science; it always sounds better or, at least, more authoritative when coming from a man, LOL. I've considered having Darth Vader do voice over on some of my talks. It would improve the attention span and the Q&A session would be a breeze. "I find your lack of faith disturbing."
lasers and science? where? Are you in California? My kids would think that's cool. They love science.
Man or woman your good. im just talking a bit of trash.lol
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Old 02-09-2018, 07:58 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
I'm an nerdy mixed-blood woman with patents, high powered lasers and Klingon language laser warning sign on her lab door, LOL.

I have a PhD in physical chemistry. I've taught college chemistry, worked at a National Lab, been research staff in university labs and worked in the private sector. I've researched: the fate of radioisotopes in deep rock; fullerene photophysics; gas phase collisional energy transfer; polymeric IR transmitting materials; and the fabrication verification and testing of high precision molded and freeform optics. I've built novel instrumentation for high spectral resolution measurement of very short lived species and ultra-fast phenomena, and the fabrication of large area, (sq m's) sub-micron resolution diffractive structures. The best stuff I can't tell you about.

I'm currently a member of the R&D staff at a small company where I do everything from test instrument design to simple QC, to machine tool programming to iPhone and Mac programing, to some barely competent electronics design.

Bored yet?
My head hurts....
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Old 02-09-2018, 09:08 PM   #28
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Native american to me is someone native to the Americas. To be included in the definition to me would be to have ancestors who originated on this continent. Excluded? To me excluded would be if your family did not originate on this continent. Of course this all means nothing if you believe in the migration story across the bering strait.
Nothing political or legal about the native question/term, I was just curious how native people from the U.S. viewed people from Mexico guatemala area. In my opinion indigenous people from north america, central america, south america, this entire continent are Native americans. What do you folks think?
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Some of us are grumpy ! LOL I'm just not into all this "Politically Correct" bu!!chit ! And I'm just an older , I don't qualify as an Elder . I am Cheyenne , Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho to be exact. I'm not ndn , Indian , Indigenous , Native American , American Native , or American Indian. I am Cheyenne. The P.C. movement has gone over the edge of sanity. People are trying too hard to not hurt somebodies feelings !
If what you say is correct , and I have no reason to believe otherwise , then you sir are from the south. You come from the native population from those areas you mentioned , so apparently that is how you identify. Does it really matter what I think ? I certainly don't care ! I am Cheyenne. I dance Northern Traditional , I am a retired Bricklayer , I build regalia and bead. I try to be as honest and good as modern society allows. That's who I am , no more , no less ! Oh yeah , I consider Joe'sDad to be my friend as well as Ol'C , Subeeds , Gilisi and many others on this site !The world is not so big that powwows.commers don't run into each other from time to time. I have met many members at various powwows around the country. Now you know who I am , and my opinion of the P.C.Movement !~ LOL Now , in my opinion , prior to "discovery" there were NO Such Things as Mexicans ! Only different tribes of people native to that area. There were no borders other than territorial lines defined by those tribes. I'll pizz some more off by saying "in my opinion , that the "Mexican People" of today are only mixed blood natives from being conquered by invaders ! Now , there it is ! LOL
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I'm not an elder like JD and Wd, I'm just a lady geezer, LOL. But, over my years associating with intelligent life on this planet and in academia, which may not qualify as intelligent life (j/k), I've heard this term used to describe different populations of peoples indigenous to the Americas. It seems like every group and governmental agency draws the boundaries in different places.

Just a sampling from the internet:

"a member of any of the indigenous peoples of the western hemisphere; especially : a Native American of North America and especially the U.S." -- Merriam-Webster

"a member of any of the indigenous peoples of the Americas." -- Google Dictionary

"a member of any of the groups of people that lived in North America before the Europeans arrived." -- Cambridge Dictionary

In my experience, most Native people (non academics), who speak American English (not Canadian English), use the term to mean people who are descendants of populations indigenous to per-contact North America, who's traditional territories fell within the contemporary boundaries of the continental US. The term is, as the quotes below indicate, interchangeable with Indian or American Indian.

"Usage Note: Native American is now fully established in American English as an equivalent of Indian, being acceptable in all contemporary contexts and preferred in many...." -- American Heritage Dictionary

Indian (n) - "A member of any of the Native American peoples except the Eskimos, Aleuts, and Inuits."-- American Heritage Dictionary

In the US, the term American Indian has a legal dimension related to governmental obligations to citizens of tribes which are signatory to various treaties with the US and preceding British colonial government. The exact parsing of these boundaries is complex and in some cases context dependent.

It has been my experience that many folks who descent from peoples indigenous to lands south of the US border, tend to get very hung up on whether my (or some other Indian's) personal Euler diagram for the term includes or excludes them. In some cases, it is my perception that this arises from the belief that I'm somehow saying they're not a "real" indigenous to the Americas people. In a few cases it seems to me that the tension has originated with belief that if they were included within the "Native American" rubric, they would be entitled to the services extended to citizens of federally recognized tribes. It seems that the more distant the connection to their Native culture, the greater the emotion involved.

Now, I accept that perhaps my perceptions are in error and influenced by my own biases. Hence, I am asking some of those who have repeatedly questioned the definition of "Native American" to share no just a dictionary definition, but the larger meaning.


I will shut my yap, after a final observation: Almost every time I've been with Native people, with strong ties to their cultures, they meet, greet and connect by identifying tribe and mutual social or kinship connections
I certainly agree with the majority of what y'all had to offer. I'd like to expound on them further and share some extra info if you may.

"Native American" can definitely refer to all indigenous peoples of the Americas, as most of your definitions mentioned. Only the term is more familiar to US citizens and not in other American nations, such as Canada, Greenland, and those in Latin America. For instance, Canada refers to them as "First Nations" and most of Latin America refers to them as "Amerindios" They're just different words with the exact same definition (AKA "synonyms"), but vary in familiarity depending on the region/nation.

Here's another point:



^ "American" in its most logical definition in terms of etymology is "A native or inhabitant of any of the countries of North, South, or Central America" and "Relating to or denoting the continents of America." This clearly defeats the claim that indigenous folks from South America cannot be considered Native American by any means. It makes perfect sense when South America has "America" in its name just as its northern counterpart does.


Not to mention how common it is for experts and professionals in science and history to refer indigenous folks of the Americas outside the US as "Native Americans."

Moving onto the racial aspect of "Native American," I myself definitely consider all Native Americans in the Americas, regardless of culture and region, the same race. And race is largely based on genetic and physiological differences. Furthermore, there are plenty of studies over the genetics of Native Americans they are highly similar to each other and most distant from all Old World populations. Any genetic distance between Native Americans from other regions in the Americas comes nowhere close to the distance between them and populations/races of the Old World (even they bear some genetic distance between each other).

As for phenotype/physiology, I find all Native Americans share enough similarities to possess their own "racial appearance/expression" that is distinct from other races as well.

Here are some Native Americans outside the US that I believe would bear little to no issues (not counting their outfits and other body modifications) passing as US Native Americans (in terms of phenotype/physiology):












Last edited by ChildrenFromTheSun; 02-09-2018 at 09:53 PM..
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Old 02-09-2018, 09:28 PM   #29
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I certainly agree with the majority of what y'all had to offer. I'd like to expound on them further and share some extra info if you may.

"Native American" can definitely refer to all indigenous peoples of the Americas, as most of your definitions mentioned. Only the term is more familiar to US citizens and not in other American nations, such as Canada, Greenland, and those in Latin America. For instance, Canada refers to them as "First Nations" and most of Latin America refers to them as "Amerindios" They're just different words with the exact same definition (AKA "synonyms"), but vary in familiarity depending on the region/nation.

Here's another point:



^ "American" in its most logical definition in terms of etymology is "A native or inhabitant of any of the countries of North, South, or Central America" and "Relating to or denoting the continents of America." This clearly defeats the claim that indigenous folks from South America cannot be considered Native American by any means. It makes perfect sense when South America has "America" in its name just as its northern counterpart does.


Not to mention how common it is for experts and professionals in science and history to refer indigenous folks of the Americas outside the US as "Native Americans."

Moving onto the racial aspect of "Native American," I myself definitely consider all Native Americans in the Americas, regardless of culture and region, the same race. And race is largely based on genetic and physiological differences. Furthermore, there are plenty of studies over the genetics of Native Americans they are highly similar to each other and most distant from all Old World populations. Any genetic distance between Native Americans from other regions in the Americas comes nowhere close to the distance between them and populations of the Old World.

As for phenotype/physiology, I find all Native Americans share enough similarities to possess their own "racial appearance/expression" that is distinct from other races as well.

Here are some Native Americans outside the US that I believe would bear little to no issues (not counting their outfits and other body modifications) passing as US Native Americans (in terms of phenotype/physiology):











Bam! Childrenof the sun came through with some legit knowledge...Wheres Olchemist at?
Seriously, though that was put together very well hermano...
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Old 02-09-2018, 09:50 PM   #30
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Bam! Childrenof the sun came through with some legit knowledge...Wheres Olchemist at?
Seriously, though that was put together very well hermano...
I'm glad you love it my dude! Here's some bonus info on the side too!





^ While I disapprove the overall of the Mexica Movement, I do agree with some of their points like this, except for the "Nican Tlaca" label.
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:28 AM   #31
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I'm glad you love it my dude! Here's some bonus info on the side too!





^ While I disapprove the overall of the Mexica Movement, I do agree with some of their points like this, except for the "Nican Tlaca" label.
I agree.. I’m a little sketch on the Mexica thing though lol
Oh my gosh do I have a story but I don’t wanna disrespect anyone by sharing it lol but it just happen to me today lmao
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:20 PM   #32
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^ "American" in its most logical definition in terms of etymology is "A native or inhabitant of any of the countries of North, South, or Central America" and "Relating to or denoting the continents of America." This clearly defeats the claim that indigenous folks from South America cannot be considered Native American by any means. It makes perfect sense when South America has "America" in its name just as its northern counterpart does.
Please provide a source/s for the quotes: "A native or inhabitant of any of the countries of North, South, or Central America" and "Relating to or denoting the continents of America."

If you are asserting I claimed that is some way descendants of indigenous people are inauthentic, that is not true. I was trying to understand why some folks seemed quite exercised by the conventional American English usage of Native American.

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Not to mention how common it is for experts and professionals in science and history to refer indigenous folks of the Americas outside the US as "Native Americans."
Not a matter of dispute.


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And race is largely based on genetic and physiological differences.
This is far from a settled fact as far as many physical and social scientists are concerned.

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Furthermore, there are plenty of studies over the genetics of Native Americans they are highly similar to each other and most distant from all Old World populations. Any genetic distance between Native Americans from other regions in the Americas comes nowhere close to the distance between them and populations/races of the Old World (even they bear some genetic distance between each other).
Citations? Citations from peer reviewed journals?


"We analyzed human molecular diversity at 109 DNA markers, namely 30 microsatellite loci and 79 polymorphic restriction sites (restriction fragment length polymorphism loci) in 16 populations of the world. By partitioning genetic variances at three hierarchical levels of population subdivision, we found that differences between members of the same population account for 84.4% of the total, which is in excellent agreement with estimates based on allele frequencies of classic, protein polymorphisms. Genetic variation remains high even within small population groups. On the average, microsatellite and restriction fragment length polymorphism loci yield identical estimates. Differences among continents represent roughly 1/10 of human molecular diversity, which does not suggest that the racial subdivision of our species reflects any major discontinuity in our genome.”

— Guido Barbujani, Arianna Magagni, Eric Minch and L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Proc Nat. Acad. Sci. 1997 April, 94 (9) 4516-4519.

Be very very careful of the political implications claiming race as a genetic construct. Without a nuanced understanding of the relationship of expression of these alleles to human characteristics and potential, the genetic variation between populations can be used to assert group superiority. Scientific ideas rarely survive popularization without distortion and significant loss of subtlety. Embracing a genetic us/them model is like falling in love with a sword — someone will get cut.


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As for phenotype/physiology, I find all Native Americans share enough similarities to possess their own "racial appearance/expression" that is distinct from other races as well.
Careful, careful. This way lies the skin color charts and diagrams like this:

https://nativeheritageproject.files....asta.jpg?w=640
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:42 PM   #33
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Are you in California.
'fraid not. I'm a little east of there, LOL.

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You keep cultivating that. The educational pipeline for our people leaks too much.

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Old 02-11-2018, 10:59 AM   #34
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'fraid not.
I think you meant : "frayed knot"
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:04 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by ChildrenFromTheSun View Post
I certainly agree with the majority of what y'all had to offer. I'd like to expound on them further and share some extra info if you may.

"Native American" can definitely refer to all indigenous peoples of the Americas, as most of your definitions mentioned. Only the term is more familiar to US citizens and not in other American nations, such as Canada, Greenland, and those in Latin America. For instance, Canada refers to them as "First Nations" and most of Latin America refers to them as "Amerindios" They're just different words with the exact same definition (AKA "synonyms"), but vary in familiarity depending on the region/nation.

Here's another point:



^ "American" in its most logical definition in terms of etymology is "A native or inhabitant of any of the countries of North, South, or Central America" and "Relating to or denoting the continents of America." This clearly defeats the claim that indigenous folks from South America cannot be considered Native American by any means. It makes perfect sense when South America has "America" in its name just as its northern counterpart does.


Not to mention how common it is for experts and professionals in science and history to refer indigenous folks of the Americas outside the US as "Native Americans."

Moving onto the racial aspect of "Native American," I myself definitely consider all Native Americans in the Americas, regardless of culture and region, the same race. And race is largely based on genetic and physiological differences. Furthermore, there are plenty of studies over the genetics of Native Americans they are highly similar to each other and most distant from all Old World populations. Any genetic distance between Native Americans from other regions in the Americas comes nowhere close to the distance between them and populations/races of the Old World (even they bear some genetic distance between each other).

As for phenotype/physiology, I find all Native Americans share enough similarities to possess their own "racial appearance/expression" that is distinct from other races as well.

Here are some Native Americans outside the US that I believe would bear little to no issues (not counting their outfits and other body modifications) passing as US Native Americans (in terms of phenotype/physiology):











That was a lot of words, and pictures just to say we all look alike.
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:05 PM   #36
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^ While I disapprove the overall of the Mexica Movement, I do agree with some of their points like this, except for the "Nican Tlaca" label.
This is where I see a difference in our ways....

What language was that in, claiming rights to the continent?

Pre colonial histories among the over 500 tribes tell some very different stories.

The Comanche, the Apache, the Kiowa, the Cheyenne, the Cherokee and so many others all had their own areas, hunting grounds, etc. In other words, before the white man came there were no Aztec or Mayan temples on our lands. In fact, some of our older guys might even remember stories from older guys they knew about some of our own inter-tribal wars.

I don't know alot about Los Aztecas, or Los Mayas. From what I hear they are strong people who maintain their own ways and identities in Mexico. In fact I was able to watch -my first time!- Aztec dancers at a powwow recently. They were pretty amazing! They were respectful.

If I was to visit your peoples land, or your website LOL, I would be respectful. So far @ChildrenFromTheSun I haven't seen any from you.
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:10 PM   #37
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What language was that in, claiming rights to the continent?

Pre colonial histories among the over 500 tribes tell some very different stories.

The Comanche, the Apache, the Kiowa, the Cheyenne, the Cherokee and so many others all had their own areas, hunting grounds, etc. In other words, before the white man came there were no Aztec or Mayan temples on our lands. In fact, some of our older guys might even remember stories from older guys they knew about some of our own inter-tribal wars.
That deserves some emphasis.
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Old 02-11-2018, 02:43 PM   #38
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…race is largely based on genetic and physiological differences….
I keep coming back to this statement. It contains some deeply disturbing implications….

I believe linking the social constructs around race and genetics dangerous. I’m not denying that skin color, etc comes from the expression of some very tiny fraction of our genetic material. But, individual human potential is a complex product of genetic expression, familial cultivation, environment and enculturation. The arguments for a genetic vs social foundation for race has a lot of unsettled science and questionable extrapolations. Too often, drawing on incomplete lay understandings and unconscious biases, people link traits like an individual’s intelligence, talents and emotional characteristics, and the societal structures and institutions of a population to the same tiny fraction of alleles that are unique to a given genetically-isolated (formerly) population.

These assumptions have led to terrible things in the past. I have no reason to believe that human beings have improved since the last time they isolated, enslaved, sterilized, institutionalized or just plain murdered “inferior” individuals.

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Old 02-11-2018, 04:02 PM   #39
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I keep coming back to this statement. It contains some deeply disturbing implications….

These assumption have led to terrible things in the past. I have no reason to believe that human beings have improved since the last time they isolated, enslaved, sterilized, institutionalized or just plain murdered “inferior” individuals.

Race; not only in Germany of the 1933 to 1945 humans did incredible to humans in the name of race. There is a long history which reach into the present.

The involved emotions including the dehumanization language with the arguing of race which results in the end in plain murder of "inferior" individuals makes me sad, mad and angry all at the same time.
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Old 02-11-2018, 06:59 PM   #40
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^ While I disapprove the overall of the Mexica Movement, I do agree with some of their points like this, except for the "Nican Tlaca" label.
How much was your per capita check from the 4th largest tribe?

Apache, Zuni, Navajo, Nez Perce, Assiniboine, Sioux, and 500 more tribes are recognized by the United States government. The Mexican tribe is not. There is not even a recognized 'Mexican tribe' in Mexico.

Indigenous, we all are. Which tribe do you identify in the United States? Which tribe do you identify in Mexico?
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