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Old 02-11-2018, 08:13 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Please provide a source/s for the quotes: "A native or inhabitant of any of the countries of North, South, or Central America" and "Relating to or denoting the continents of America."

If you are asserting I claimed that is some way descendants of indigenous people are inauthentic, that is not true. I was trying to understand why some folks seemed quite exercised by the conventional American English usage of Native American.
I got the exact definition from google's dictionary; you just google "define American" and those are some of its definitions. You can find similar definitions here as well:

American | Define American at Dictionary.com

American - WordReference.com Dictionary of English

I'm not asserting anything specifically against you. As I mentioned in my previous post, I at least implied challenging/debating anyone on anything as its basis. I mainly intended to expound on most of you and the others' responses. Nonetheless, I was hoping for some discussion to continue as well.


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This is far from a settled fact as far as many physical and social scientists are concerned.
I'm aware there's still some serious disputes over the objectivity of "race."

I personally do believe it exists to a certain degree though.

Quote:
Citations? Citations from peer reviewed journals?
I've witness such studies and data in too vast in total to list them all, so I'll just share a few here on what I base my claims on:

DNA Analysis Shows That Native American Genealogy Is One of the Most Unique in the World










Quote:
"We analyzed human molecular diversity at 109 DNA markers, namely 30 microsatellite loci and 79 polymorphic restriction sites (restriction fragment length polymorphism loci) in 16 populations of the world. By partitioning genetic variances at three hierarchical levels of population subdivision, we found that differences between members of the same population account for 84.4% of the total, which is in excellent agreement with estimates based on allele frequencies of classic, protein polymorphisms. Genetic variation remains high even within small population groups. On the average, microsatellite and restriction fragment length polymorphism loci yield identical estimates. Differences among continents represent roughly 1/10 of human molecular diversity, which does not suggest that the racial subdivision of our species reflects any major discontinuity in our genome.Ē

ó Guido Barbujani, Arianna Magagni, Eric Minch and L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Proc Nat. Acad. Sci. 1997 April, 94 (9) 4516-4519.

Be very very careful of the political implications claiming race as a genetic construct. Without a nuanced understanding of the relationship of expression of these alleles to human characteristics and potential, the genetic variation between populations can be used to assert group superiority. Scientific ideas rarely survive popularization without distortion and significant loss of subtlety. Embracing a genetic us/them model is like falling in love with a sword ó someone will get cut.

Careful, careful. This way lies the skin color charts and diagrams like this:
It seems your main concern is that my claims will lead to racist ideology.

I don't find race solely a biological construct. I find it both a social and biological (only to a certain extent) construct.

When I claim there are biological implications involved in race, I mean this mostly in terms of phenotype and "unaffecting," but observable differences in DNA as well. When it comes to genetics, I do not believe in any DNA differences as evidence for racial supremacy, whether it be regarding intelligence, physical prowess, etc... I've never witness such anyhow.

The DNA differences between races I've noticed from the studies are more about expressionless genes, haplogroups, and other differences that serve little to no function and impact.

Mind you I'm largely against racism, but I don't see anything racist and wrong with believing expressionless, but observable differences between races as long as you do not involve notions of superiority and hatred. In other words, I find you can still acknowledge the existence of race without racism involved. Nonetheless, I also find racism and anti-racism will always exists whether or not genetic studies confirm exclusive differences (especially expressionless ones) between significant populations.

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Originally Posted by gilisi View Post
This is where I see a difference in our ways....

What language was that in, claiming rights to the continent?

Pre colonial histories among the over 500 tribes tell some very different stories.

The Comanche, the Apache, the Kiowa, the Cheyenne, the Cherokee and so many others all had their own areas, hunting grounds, etc. In other words, before the white man came there were no Aztec or Mayan temples on our lands. In fact, some of our older guys might even remember stories from older guys they knew about some of our own inter-tribal wars.

I don't know alot about Los Aztecas, or Los Mayas. From what I hear they are strong people who maintain their own ways and identities in Mexico. In fact I was able to watch -my first time!- Aztec dancers at a powwow recently. They were pretty amazing! They were respectful.

If I was to visit your peoples land, or your website LOL, I would be respectful. So far I haven't seen any from you.

Oh whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa... I forgot to mention I don't entirely agree with their approach with open borders based solely on Native American ancestry either.

The only reason I posted that Mexica Movement poster as further support for my claim of physiological similarity between Native Americans... NOT for advocating any sort of agenda at all.

As for "Nican Tlaca," it is supposed to literally translate to something like "We the people here" in Nahuatl. The movement promotes the label as something ALL Native Americans should identify as in terms of race. I never sided with this.

"or your website LOL"

Are you referring to the Mexica Movement's website? If so, you do realize that I'm not the owner, right? I already mentioned I disapprove of that movement overall; I'm definitely no supporter of theirs.

Still believe I'm disrespectful somehow?
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Old 02-11-2018, 08:27 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
How much was your per capita check from the 4th largest tribe?

Apache, Zuni, Navajo, Nez Perce, Assiniboine, Sioux, and 500 more tribes are recognized by the United States government. The Mexican tribe is not. There is not even a recognized 'Mexican tribe' in Mexico.

Indigenous, we all are. Which tribe do you identify in the United States? Which tribe do you identify in Mexico?
My check was a hefty load of $0 but 1 peso ...

I don't believe whoever is responsible behind that image meant it literally. It's just another way of saying "Mexican Indians/Native Americans (collectively, not based on their individual tribes) from Mexico are the 4th largest population of Native Americans (based on significant, individual tribes) in the US even if they are not recognized by the US govt.

I identify as Mexican/Puerto Rican in terms of culture regardless of where I am. I am aware that one of the Native American cultures I descend from is called "Purepecha" but the overwhelming majority of my Native American ancestry is culturally unidentified. In terms of my race, I'm mixed between two races that I identify as Native American and Mediterranean (mostly from Europe).

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Old 02-12-2018, 03:17 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by JiuJitsuFighter View Post
I agree.. Iím a little sketch on the Mexica thing though lol
Oh my gosh do I have a story but I donít wanna disrespect anyone by sharing it lol but it just happen to me today lmao
Ok now you're just making me even more curious LOL. No need for any trigger warnings in my case, but if it's enough for you to get chased down the street, just hit me up with a PM!

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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
I keep coming back to this statement. It contains some deeply disturbing implicationsÖ.

I believe linking the social constructs around race and genetics dangerous. Iím not denying that skin color, etc comes from the expression of some very tiny fraction of our genetic material. But, individual human potential is a complex product of genetic expression, familial cultivation, environment and enculturation. The arguments for a genetic vs social foundation for race has a lot of unsettled science and questionable extrapolations. Too often, drawing on incomplete lay understandings and unconscious biases, people link traits like an individualís intelligence, talents and emotional characteristics, and the societal structures and institutions of a population to the same tiny fraction of alleles that are unique to a given genetically-isolated (formerly) population.

These assumptions have led to terrible things in the past. I have no reason to believe that human beings have improved since the last time they isolated, enslaved, sterilized, institutionalized or just plain murdered ďinferiorĒ individuals.
As I mentioned before, you can acknowledge the existence of race without being racist and even be a major advocate against racism. I don't feel the need to address anything else from you, given that I'll just be repeating myself.

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Originally Posted by gilisi View Post
That was a lot of words, and pictures just to say we all look alike.
LOL!!!
We know!!!
Definitely not for everyone though. Nevertheless, I was interested in doing so to emphasize my point.
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Old 02-12-2018, 03:39 PM   #44
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Even though we accept you as "Native" within the United States as individuals , there are some 567 Tribes more or less , that are recognized as "Native Americans" by our Federal Government , and so all the literalization of the wording will not change that. So really it doesn't matter what we think individually. Within the U.S. borders the decision has been made for us. As far as the other governments are concerned , you would have to talk to them !
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

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Old 02-12-2018, 04:00 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
Even though we accept you as "Native" within the United States as individuals , there are some 567 Tribes more or less , that are recognized as "Native Americans" by our Federal Government , and so all the literalization of the wording will not change that. So really it doesn't matter what we think individually. Within the U.S. borders the decision has been made for us. As far as the other governments are concerned , you would have to talk to them !
Except that's not at all what I had in mind.

Now that you brought it up, I'll tell you what actually think... I do not care for obtaining federal recognition for us. If I was to push any sort of agenda when it comes to considering Native Americans outside the US, it's more about acknowledging us as all the same race of people. It is much like how indigenous Europeans and their diaspora are usually considered the same race, AKA "White."

Let's not forget the US and virtually all other independent nations (save for Greenland to a certain extent) are products of colonialism; I favor independent Native American nations, with Greenland being the closest example.

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Old 02-12-2018, 06:15 PM   #46
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@ChildrenFromTheSun Can you provide the links for the sources of those visualizations of genetic divergence? I'd like to look a the source papers.

I never thought you were being racist. I was rather clumsily reminding you that the dominant culture has not infrequently welded science as a club. I fear science's decoding and understanding of the expression of the human genome is outracing the development of societal ethical and moral constraints. Indians are too often the canaries in the coal mine, to borrow a metaphor from Felix Cohan. We especially need to be careful with our use of this information.

Or maybe I was just overthinking it, LOL.

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Old 02-12-2018, 06:52 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by ChildrenFromTheSun View Post
Except that's not at all what I had in mind.

Now that you brought it up, I'll tell you what actually think... I do not care for obtaining federal recognition for us.
It wouldn't matter if you did , those bounderies have already been established !
If I was to push any sort of agenda when it comes to considering Native Americans outside the US, it's more about acknowledging us as all the same race of people.But we're not ! So we all have varying degrees of pigment , but the truth is and this is my own personal opinion , our culture and belief systems are not even the same.Not even close ! We aren't sun worshippers , other that "I like a day at the beach" and I'm certainly not sacrificing anybody hoping to gain favor with the Gods !
It is much like how indigenous Europeans and their diaspora are usually considered the same race, AKA "White."
Usually ? I don't really believe that. I don't think our friend Broken Arrow would fit in the same box as someone from Ireland or Wales. Or even France or Spain ?

Let's not forget the US and virtually all other independent nations (save for Greenland to a certain extent) are products of colonialism; I favor independent Native American nations, with Greenland being the closest example.
We are a conquered people. We exist because our ancestors made treaties the the conquerors. They did what they thought best to save not only themselves , but their children. It was "let's make a deal or else we'll be eliminated" ! Now , we as tribal people have to live with that. Our forefathers wanted us to survive , to continue our culture , our beliefs, and it is our duty to do so. There will always be that line we can't cross if we want to continue to exist ! Congress could decide tomorrow to do away with all the treaties , outlaw casinos ,do away with "Tribes" and there would be nothing we could do.Do you really think that if all the "brown people" stood together we could take back the continent ? If you do then you are crazy as a loon ! Good luck with your agenda , I'll watch from a distance.
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__________________
I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:08 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
But we're not ! So we all have varying degrees of pigment , but the truth is and this is my own personal opinion , our culture and belief systems are not even the same.Not even close !
My hat's off to your decolonized mindset.
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:39 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
@ChildrenFromTheSun Can you provide the links for the sources of those visualizations of genetic divergence? I'd like to look a the source papers.

I never thought you were being racist. I was rather clumsily reminding you that the dominant culture has not infrequently welded science as a club. I fear science's decoding and understanding of the expression of the human genome is outracing the development of societal ethical and moral constraints. Indians are too often the canaries in the coal mine, to borrow a metaphor from Felix Cohan. We especially need to be careful with our use of this information.

Or maybe I was just overthinking it, LOL.
Two of them can be found on this thread: Amerindians cannot be Mongoloid; they and Australoids are equidistant genetically to East Asians

The Haplogroup Q-M242:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242

As for the gif, it's supposed to be found here, but a link to it is no where:

Lithography

I did find another data map of Y-haplogroup frequencies that caught my attention:

http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonal...groupsMaps.pdf

I definitely agree to pay close attention to such genetic studies. It doesn't hurt to identify any genetic differences either, especially if they don't bear any influences upon anyone in any way.

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Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
It wouldn't matter if you did , those bounderies have already been established !
Sure, just remember they were established by the colonizer's government.

Quote:
But we're not ! So we all have varying degrees of pigment , but the truth is and this is my own personal opinion , our culture and belief systems are not even the same.Not even close ! We aren't sun worshippers , other that "I like a day at the beach" and I'm certainly not sacrificing anybody hoping to gain favor with the Gods !
Like you said, that's only your opinion. You can totally believe in whatever you desire. I certainly hold my own on the concept of race. So you don't believe in race?

I do and when I say race, I do not mean we're so culturally similar. I'm well aware of cultural distinctions. Nevertheless, there are definitely cultural and historical parallels between all Native American populations.

I apply biological, loose cultural and historical similarities, social acceptance/awareness, and geography to how I define race. After all, most of this criteria is involved in defining race throughout history, even to this day. It is not merely similarities in pigmentation on why I claim Native Americans are all the same race. It involves other physiological traits as well, such as eye structure (e.g. epicanthic folds, socket position), cheekbones, hair type, teeth, nose structure, etc... And once again, physiology/phenotype is NOT the only criteria I base race upon.

I emphasize on my claim we're all the same race to promote an effective degree of unity. Is there anything you have against unity?

Quote:
Usually ? I don't really believe that. I don't think our friend Broken Arrow would fit in the same box as someone from Ireland or Wales. Or even France or Spain ?
Considering the racial definition of White/Caucasian is defined as anyone from indigenous origins in Europe, then of course. Why are you mentioning Broken Arrow though? Is he/she mixed race?

Quote:
We are a conquered people. We exist because our ancestors made treaties the the conquerors. They did what they thought best to save not only themselves , but their children. It was "let's make a deal or else we'll be eliminated" ! Now , we as tribal people have to live with that. Our forefathers wanted us to survive , to continue our culture , our beliefs, and it is our duty to do so. There will always be that line we can't cross if we want to continue to exist !
Keep in mind the biggest reason, by far, for the defeat of virtually all Native American nations was not through the colonizer's military prowess. It was pathogens that did the VAST majority of the dirty work for the colonizers. Otherwise, I certainly would argue that they would've stood no chance against Native American nations, especially the deadliest, war-mongering ones.

But yes, it became a life or death situation and I'm aware there was no greater options at the time.

Quote:
Congress could decide tomorrow to do away with all the treaties , outlaw casinos ,do away with "Tribes" and there would be nothing we could do.Do you really think that if all the "brown people" stood together we could take back the continent ? If you do then you are crazy as a loon ! Good luck with your agenda , I'll watch from a distance.
Did you ever hear from anything regarding my proposed movement? I only ask since you're making near-assumptions akin to someone else has done when they heard of it.

I'll just say I do not intend for us to reclaim the entire Americas. I do intend for us to establish a great sense of unity between all Native American nations, a beneficial degree of "pan-Amerindianism."

I also do not intend to rush ASAP into reclaiming any land, especially not in the current status of Native American nations. I intend for this to occur in a peaceful manner as well, not with bloodshed.

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Old 02-12-2018, 09:25 PM   #50
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Thanks for the links. I think I will skip reading the 140+ page PhD thesis that is the source of one of those images, LOL. Gee, one of those is from the work of a chemist from my alma mater.
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Old 02-12-2018, 11:14 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChildrenFromTheSun View Post

Sure, just remember they were established by the colonizer's government.

I already said that

Like you said, that's only your opinion. You can totally believe in whatever you desire. I certainly hold my own on the concept of race. So you don't believe in race?

Obviously not the same as you.

I do and when I say race, I do not mean we're so culturally similar. I'm well aware of cultural distinctions. Nevertheless, there are definitely cultural and historical parallels between all Native American populations.

I apply biological, loose cultural and historical similarities, social acceptance/awareness, and geography to how I define race. After all, most of this criteria is involved in defining race throughout history, even to this day. It is not merely similarities in pigmentation on why I claim Native Americans are all the same race. It involves other physiological traits as well, such as eye structure (e.g. epicanthic folds, socket position), cheekbones, hair type, teeth, nose structure, etc... And once again, physiology/phenotype is NOT the only criteria I base race upon.

I emphasize on my claim we're all the same race to promote an effective degree of unity. Is there anything you have against unity?



Considering the racial definition of White/Caucasian is defined as anyone from indigenous origins in Europe, then of course.
Why are you mentioning Broken Arrow though? Is he/she mixed race?
He is a member here and is from Germany , by your definition "white". In my definition he is German , and he recognizes me as Cheyenne.



Keep in mind the biggest reason, by far, for the defeat of virtually all Native American nations was not through the colonizer's military prowess. It was pathogens that did the VAST majority of the dirty work for the colonizers. Otherwise, I certainly would argue that they would've stood no chance against Native American nations, especially the deadliest, war-mongering ones.

But yes, it became a life or death situation and I'm aware there was no greater options at the time.

Exactly , and you cannot change the past !

Did you ever hear from anything regarding my proposed movement? I only ask since you're making near-assumptions akin to someone else has done when they heard of it.I can honestly say I've never heard of you or your movement. The first I heard of you was when you came in here interjecting yourself into other's conversations without introducing yourself.

I'll just say I do not intend for us to reclaim the entire Americas. I do intend for us to establish a great sense of unity between all Native American nations, a beneficial degree of "pan-Amerindianism."
I'm sorry , I don't believe in that concept. Just like the whiney liberal left , you want everyone to be the same , pan amerindianism buiichit. I am Cheyenne and I know my family , our culture and traditions and our council and our chiefs , our elders. There is no pan amerindianism.

I also do not intend to rush ASAP into reclaiming any land, especially not in the current status of Native American nations. I intend for this to occur in a peaceful manner as well, not with bloodshed.
It's obvious you are much smarter than I. I'll leave this conversation to those more educated.I'm just an older and I am who I am.
__________________
I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care

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Old 02-13-2018, 12:01 AM   #52
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I already said that
Only making sure that we're on the same page, plus some added emphasis.

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Exactly , and you cannot change the past !
Who said anything about changing the past? Of course you cannot change the past, but you can create the future via the present.

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Obviously not the same as you. He is a member here and is from Germany , by your definition "white". In my definition he is German , and he recognizes me as Cheyenne.
Ohhhhhhhh... I exactly see the issue here. You consider culture/nationality/tribe synonymous with race: "culture/nationality/tribe = race" to you, correct?

I would consider him both White and German, as I do not find culture/nationality/tribe the same as race. In other words, I say his race is White and his nationality/culture is German.

Just using a single label to identify one's background is not like me at all.

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can honestly say I've never heard of you or your movement. The first I heard of you was when you came in here interjecting yourself into other's conversations without introducing yourself.
Does that seriously grind your gears?!

Quote:
It's obvious you are much smarter than I. I'll leave this conversation to those more educated.I'm just an older and I am who I am.
That is the last thing I'd expect to hear from you, unless you're just patronizing me.

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I'm sorry , I don't believe in that concept. Just like the whiney liberal left , you want everyone to be the same , pan amerindianism buiichit. I am Cheyenne and I know my family , our culture and traditions and our council and our chiefs , our elders. There is no pan amerindianism.
I cannot believe you're comparing it to liberalism. You do realize pan-Amerindianism far predates the existence of liberals, especially the modern stock that I and plenty of others highly criticize? Furthermore, Tecumseh and his campaign against the settlers is the earliest example of this concept.

Anyhow, pan-Amerindianism isn't about everyone becoming the same, especially in my case. It comes in multiple forms, you know? It does not seek to assimilate all Native American cultures into one single culture and in any other degenerate, inconsiderate manner if that's what you're thinking.

My movement's pan-Amerindianism is more complicated than that and I make sure to think it through with plenty of care.

Last edited by ChildrenFromTheSun; 02-13-2018 at 12:08 AM..
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Old 02-27-2018, 04:54 PM   #53
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Uhm. Hmm. Scratching my head. I have observed this entire conversation and as much as I have wanted to jump in and put my two cents in, @OLChemist @wardancer @brokenarrow, you'd be proud of me on how I actually just stayed quiet. I actually kept my mouth shut. OLChemist, I think you know how hard that is for me since I tend to put my foot in my mouth a lot. So keeping my mouth shut...well, that is huge for me. This whole conversation has left me perplexed. I have learned a lot. Now I know what you meant by being watchful of what you research. Uhum.
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I am looking to join a Pow Wow dance team anywhere in New Jersey. Dance Style: Jingle Dancing.



Thank You Creator For All Of Your Blessings.
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:35 PM   #54
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This is my first post. Hello everybody.

I don't really like the idea of a label and gave up reading all the science stuff back on page two. Although I've said I'm Native, and I grew up with hearing "we're Indian", If I was going to identify myself, then I'd say I'm Chahta.

We are various nations, and many of us, or at the very least, our ancestors, do not share the same beliefs, stories, languages, etc. There are similarities sometimes if you look, but to just be grouped as one tribe is odd unless we are simply talking about being One Tribe.

"Native American" is for government use. I haven't really ever said that I am Native American, either, or at least not to my knowledge. I strive not to. Native, sure. Something about Native American gets to me. It's like African AMerican or any other X-American, while there is no WHITE American.

This thing about natives all basically look the same or share characteristics...I'm not sure about that either. Sure you can see it a lot of times, but really always? It's not uncommon for people in my tribe to be tall. Our ancestral chief was guesstimated at or just over seven feet tall when DeSoto found them in 1539. This was first contact in NA, so there was no interracial rape to account for that. My dad is six foot one. My cousin is six foot three. Those aren't heights you usually associate with a lot of peoples that aren't from the Northeast or even in the Southeast.

I need to cut this short. Sorry for that. I hope that I haven't misunderstood the conversation so far.

I'm Native. I'm Chahta. I don't worry about haplotypes.
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Old 03-20-2018, 10:36 PM   #55
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Old 03-20-2018, 11:14 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Heathen View Post
This is my first post. Hello everybody.

I don't really like the idea of a label and gave up reading all the science stuff back on page two. Although I've said I'm Native, and I grew up with hearing "we're Indian", If I was going to identify myself, then I'd say I'm Chahta.

We are various nations, and many of us, or at the very least, our ancestors, do not share the same beliefs, stories, languages, etc. There are similarities sometimes if you look, but to just be grouped as one tribe is odd unless we are simply talking about being One Tribe.

"Native American" is for government use. I haven't really ever said that I am Native American, either, or at least not to my knowledge. I strive not to. Native, sure. Something about Native American gets to me. It's like African AMerican or any other X-American, while there is no WHITE American.

This thing about natives all basically look the same or share characteristics...I'm not sure about that either. Sure you can see it a lot of times, but really always? It's not uncommon for people in my tribe to be tall. Our ancestral chief was guesstimated at or just over seven feet tall when DeSoto found them in 1539. This was first contact in NA, so there was no interracial rape to account for that. My dad is six foot one. My cousin is six foot three. Those aren't heights you usually associate with a lot of peoples that aren't from the Northeast or even in the Southeast.

I need to cut this short. Sorry for that. I hope that I haven't misunderstood the conversation so far.

I'm Native. I'm Chahta. I don't worry about haplotypes.
Hello. Nice to meet you. I agree with everything you said.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:33 AM   #57
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Hello. Nice to meet you. I agree with everything you said.
Thank you very much. Nice to meet you, as well.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:56 AM   #58
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This is my first post. Hello everybody.
So glad you finally came to join us! You used to have an account here though, until the temporary "shutdown," right?

Quote:
I don't really like the idea of a label and gave up reading all the science stuff back on page two. Although I've said I'm Native, and I grew up with hearing "we're Indian", If I was going to identify myself, then I'd say I'm Chahta.

We are various nations, and many of us, or at the very least, our ancestors, do not share the same beliefs, stories, languages, etc. There are similarities sometimes if you look, but to just be grouped as one tribe is odd unless we are simply talking about being One Tribe.
When I claim we're all "Native American," including ALL indigenous folks of the Americas (includes all of Latin America, Canada, USA without Hawaii, Caribbean, and Greenland) was not categorizing us into "one tribe." It was in a fairly different context of categorization that I hoped all of us in the discussion could fully comprehend and agree upon. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case thus far.

The true context of "Native American" in my posts is categorization in terms of race. I elaborated thoroughly in one or two of them over this context. This isn't something I solely apply to us. I apply them to other racially distinct populations we're all aware of, such as White/Caucasian and Black/Sub-saharan African.

Furthermore, we all know there are plenty of distinct societies and nations within the White/Caucasian race that originates from Europe. This fact still doesn't negate the racial identity, especially as race does not depend solely on cultural similarities, but is primarily based on biological characteristics.

Long story short, "tribe ≠ race," in my context at least.


Quote:
"Native American" is for government use. I haven't really ever said that I am Native American, either, or at least not to my knowledge. I strive not to. Native, sure. Something about Native American gets to me. It's like African AMerican or any other X-American, while there is no WHITE American.
I usually only use it to identify my and the "indigenous peoples of the Americas" race in my case (no rhyme intended).

As for no "White" American, I'm sure you don't mean it literally and are just trying to make a point. I still feel like throwing it out in case you're interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Americans

Quote:
This thing about natives all basically look the same or share characteristics...I'm not sure about that either. Sure you can see it a lot of times, but really always? It's not uncommon for people in my tribe to be tall. Our ancestral chief was guesstimated at or just over seven feet tall when DeSoto found them in 1539. This was first contact in NA, so there was no interracial rape to account for that. My dad is six foot one. My cousin is six foot three. Those aren't heights you usually associate with a lot of peoples that aren't from the Northeast or even in the Southeast.

I'm Native. I'm Chahta. I don't worry about haplotypes.
There are definitely certain physiological characteristic we share that can make us distinguishable from other commonly heard of races, such as White/Caucasian and Black as I mentioned before. There can still be physiological variations within the same race as well, height being a perfect one. Notice how Caucasians in Northern Europe tend to be taller than the ones in Southern Europe. This doesn't diminish my claims though as far as I'm concerned; height obviously isn't the only physiological characteristic to consider.

Last edited by ChildrenFromTheSun; 03-22-2018 at 05:33 PM..
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:37 PM   #59
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So glad you finally came to join us! You used to have an account here though, until the temporary "shutdown," right?



When I claim we're all "Native American," including ALL indigenous folks of the Americas (includes all of Latin America, Canada, USA without Hawaii, Caribbean, and Greenland) was not categorizing us into "one tribe." It was in a fairly different context of categorization that I hoped all of us in the discussion could fully comprehend and agree upon. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case thus far.

The true context of "Native American" in my posts is categorization in terms of race. I elaborated thoroughly in one or two of them over this context. This isn't something I solely apply to us. I apply them to other racially distinct populations we're all aware of, such as White/Caucasian and Black/Sub-saharan African.

Furthermore, we all know there are plenty of distinct societies and nations within the White/Caucasian race that originates from Europe. This fact still doesn't negate the racial identity, especially as race does not depend solely on cultural similarities, but is primarily based on biological characteristics.

Long story short, "tribe ≠ race," in my context at least.




I usually only use it to identify my and "indigenous peoples of the Americas" race in my case (no rhyme intended).

As for no "White" American, I'm sure you don't mean it literally and are just trying to make a point. I still feel like throwing it out in case you're interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Americans



There are definitely certain physiological characteristic we share that can make us distinguishable from other commonly heard of races, such as White/Caucasian and Black as I mentioned before. There can still be physiological variations within the same race as well, height being a perfect one. Notice how Caucasians in Northern Europe tend to be taller than the ones in Southern Europe. This doesn't diminish my claims though as far as I'm concerned; height obviously isn't the only physiological characteristic to consider.
Iím come to this conclusion bro, my people are the Maya. I do understand the way you view the whole subject.
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Old 03-21-2018, 06:19 PM   #60
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Iím come to this conclusion bro, my people are the Maya. I do understand the way you view the whole subject.
You're just sharing news with us? If so, I'm glad you've confirmed your ancestral culture! Or is there perhaps any major, unidentified ancestry from your Native American side like me? I only traced a fragment of that side of my ancestry, unfortunately...

Do you agree with my view on the whole subject?
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