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Old 03-27-2006, 01:18 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1badazzndn
heres the truth....theres a lot of us ndnz out there who use eagle and/or birds of prey feathers every weekend. In all acutallity you are supposed to have a permit for every feather that comes from a different bired on your outfit....a lot of people dont have any kind of permit for the feathers. In order to prove that, they would have to compare the DNA and all that. Just make sure you have some kind of paperwork with you, or a dayum, good excuse..i dont think having feathers without a permit is wrong, but legally, the government feels different. What about ceremonial feathers? In my tribe, we use heron feathers during our ceremonial dances....and we do kill the birds to get the feathers. Its always been so. Those birds are protected by law, but that aint gonna stop us. What about all the feathers used in NAC? Ive never seen a permit for flickers, anhingas, road runners etc. bout the only birds i can think of that they use in NAC that are legal would be magpie and macaw feathers. Its a lose lose situation on this kind of stuff. Yeah theyll take feathers from ndnz...but what about the hick-inbred farmers in missouri who kill eagles for the fun of it and hang their bodies on road signs? Im sorry but if someone is going to take my feathers, they better be ready to take me to jail too for assualt. They can take them from my cold, dead hands.
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Old 03-27-2006, 01:23 PM   #22
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Feather Busts

Hi all.... while this is all pretty sickening, it's not terribly new. Anybody remember the "great Oklahoma feather bust" back in the mid 1970s? Seems about every 15 years or so, the Feds (and State game and fish agencies) make the rounds of powwows and other events just to prove that they hold all the cards so to speak.

In the early 1990s, during the Clinton administration, USFW issued a policy statement that its agents were not to bother native people who were using feathers for legitimate cultural reasons. Of course, they still actively pursued people who were shooting and/or selling feathers or bird parts.

How ironic that under the Bush admin, that couldn't seem to tell the truth about 9/11, Iraqi WMD, Jack Abramoff, and a whole mess of other stuff, this policy seems to have been abandoned. Lets think about some reasons why:

1. The Cobell v. Norton trust fund lawsuit. The Feds owe individual Indian trust account holders over a billion dollars. The current feather thing therefore seems like pure intimidation and revenge - after all, Norton and other Interior Dept bigwigs have been held in contempt of court numerous times for their utter bungling of the federal gov't's constitutionally obligated trust responsibilities.

2. The Endangered Species Act is up for reauthorization. Some right wing wackos want to gut the ESA in the name of "property rights" to protect the ability of a handful of western ranchers to do whatever they want with their land, regardless of how it harms the ecosystem, including both endangered species and other people (the gutting of the Environmental Protection agency is also relevant here). Back in the 1970s, Native use of eagle feathers was blamed for the decline in eagle population (partly out of revenge against AIM), largely to protect the farm and ranch lobby who wanted to continue to use the pesticide DDT. That chemical causes bird eggs to have very thin, brittle shells, and it was determined that DDT was the real cause of the decline in eagle populations. I recently heard that some farmers and ranchers were lobbying to get DDT un-banned. Also, note that bald eagles were downgraded a few years ago from endangered to "threatened" in every state EXCEPT Oklahoma and New Mexico, which both have very high concentrations of Native people. I hardly think all of this is a coincidence.

And in another thread on this same subject, someone (I apologize for not giving your name right at the moment) pointed out that ONLY MEMBERS of Federally recognized tribes can get feathers from the repository and the accompanying paperwork. That means not only can State tribal members not "legally" possess them, but also NO ONE can "legally" possess hawk, crane, raven, or pretty much ANY feather other than pigeon or common house sparrow. Just about every imaginable bird is covered under the Eagle Protection Act (1948 for Bald eagles, amended about 1962 to include Golden eagles), the 1918 Migratory bird treaty act (this covers a stunning array of birds, especially those that might migrate across international borders), the 1973 Endangered Species Act (we all know what that is right?), and federal, state, and local hunting and wildlife management laws. In short, we all gotta be super careful. I'm by no means arguing that we shouldn't use these feathers, but I am saying that we all have to be smart about HOW and WHEN we use them.

I really think the gov't's actions have a lot to do with revenge over the Cobell v. Norton suit. Anybody watch PBR on TV? There are several of the bull riders on there that have "illegal" feathers on their hats who are not Indian nor do they have anything to do with Native cultural practices, so they couldn't even claim some religious significance for the feathers. Why are PBR cowboys not getting busted, even when they're on TV w/ their feathers in front of millions of viewers? Hmmmm..... I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure it out - that agent who said "it wasn't a racial thing, he was just doing his job" is just plain lying. Plus, that's exactly what Nazi troops said as they herded Jews into the gas chambers at Auschwtiz.
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Old 03-27-2006, 01:56 PM   #23
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How to defend yourself

Ok, my previous post was starting to ramble, so I decided to address this info separately.

1. Beef up on some legal cases that give support to Native rights
The one that comes immediately to mind was here in NM - USFW v. Martinez. In short, Martinez was from San Ildefonso pueblo, and his religious leaders needed an eagle immediately for a ceremony. He went out an shot one, but someone saw him and turned him in. Long story short, the judge in that case threw out the charges on several grounds: 1) The wait at the eagle repository (then about 3 years, now around 5) posed an "undue burden on free exercise"; 2) it was unconstitutional to demand the name of "authorized" religious leaders on the permit application (USFW has since changed their applications due to this court case - now you only have to swear by signature that the feathers are for religous use). I'm sure i'm fogetting some other details, but this kind of case (there have been acouple of others more recently) can be used in support of our rights.

2. NAC people, you are going to be targeted especially harshly.
Sad but true - it's happened every time one of these feather enforcement things gets rolling. Again, scissortails, roadrunners, hawks, flickers are not permitted by the USFW, so you might have a liscence to harvest and transport peyote and have all your eagle paperwork in order, but they'll still be out to get you. The NM Fish and Game service has a disgustingly huge collection of confiscated NAC fans and paraphenalia. Again, be VERY CAUTIOUS of WHEN and WHERE you are using your gear.

3. Do NOT get your picture taken by ANYONE while holding/wearing your feathers.
Seriously - not even by your relatives, cause I've seen situations where a person got busted and to reduce their own penalties, they narced out their cousins, friends, etc., often providing photographic evidence.

4. Keep all permits and CDIBs, enrollment cards, etc, on your person whenever you are wearing/holding your feathers; otherwise, keep them WITH the feathers when they're not being used.
This is the biggest step you can take, but even then it's not 100% guaranteed, for numerous reasons that have been outlined in this and that other thread. After all, who actually has permits for every little plume, coverlet, roach feather, etc? And nobody's got permits for their keen hawk or waterbird tail fan....

5. Don't go to powwows on non-Indian land.
Yeah, I know that there are some keen dances in cities, in non-Indian locales and so forth, but the particular legal status of "Indian Country" - as in federally recognized trust or tribal lands (and I can't really get in to all the permutations of this concept) - might give a bit of security, since there are so many jurisdictional issues that the Feds will have to clear up before prosecuting. Notice that the bust that started this discussion was on non-Indian land.


IF YOU THINK YOU ARE BEING TARGETED BY THE FEDS - TRY THESE BASIC STEPS:

A) If your picture has been taken without permission, GET THE PERSON'S NAME AND ADDRESS.
Don't get into any further discussion - like in that TV shoe Dragnet, it's just the facts. AND BE SURE TO WRITE IT DOWN!

B) Ask if the person is a Law Enforcement officer and ask for their ID and badge number.
If they're really undercover, they might not give it up, but again, DON'T GET ALL CONFRONTATIONAL - stay calm and get the info written down.

C) Break out with your CDIB, enrollment info and permit paperwork.
That should put an end to any law enforcement scrutiny.

D) DO NOT, under any circumstances, buy, sell, shoot birds or feathers, or recieve feathers that you believe to have been obtainted in such a way that might end up biting you in the rear down the line.
Ultimately, even in friendlier times the USFW was still out to get people buying, selling, and shooting.

Again, the point here is DON'T try to argue with an agent - they're not empowered to make a deal, plus "anything you say can and will be used against you." Prove your case on the spot if you can - but if you can't, don't antagonize the agent. Get a LAWYER, and get ready to file a civil rights lawsuit that focuses on 3 things: 1) First amendment free excercise violations; 2) Unreasonable search and seizure if they took your feathers; and 3) equal protection based on the racial nature of the enforcement of feather laws (get your lawyer to bone up on cases where non-Natives have gotten away with killing and/or possessing birds or parts).
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Last edited by Str8Dancer49; 03-27-2006 at 02:00 PM..
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Old 03-27-2006, 03:38 PM   #24
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yes the law states only federally recognized tribes.. state is not included
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Old 03-27-2006, 03:42 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by between2worlds
The hypocrisy of the US Government is astounding. The federal government insists that other countries (most recently in the news - the Afghan government) support religious freedom, while on this land they actively pursue religious intolerance.

Our prayers are with the Lipan and the Soto Family.
I know what your are saying, but religious freedom and protection of a species makes a lot of fine lines especially with the large spring of poaching we've been reading about in the last year. If this law was'nt in place can you imagine what could happen to the eagles? The bald eagle was hugely decimated and since everyone wants them coveted black and whites from golden eagles.. if this law was'nt in place, alot of us would be carrying feathers from an EXTINCT species eventually.
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Old 03-27-2006, 03:53 PM   #26
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there was a big article this past fall inthe seattle paper on eagle poaching...some white guy here was busted with over 200 eagles in van...and they said they know thats just the tip of the iceberg...im trying to get ahold of the special agent i used to know from usfw...and find out whats going on with all this...i know we have talked in the past and he said usfw had a loose policy to not hassle legit ndn ppl...they were trying to avoid another situation like red earth back in the 80s or early 90s,where hundreds of feathers on bustles etc were confiscated...i think whats said above about this being retaliation is partially to blame for all this but also remember its an election year and theres a huge anti ndn sentiment going on in this country right now...this admin thats in control now has seriously cut back on all protections in the natural world and i wouldnt be surpised if this was a way to say"see we're saving species and are pro environment" ( as they delist wolves,grizzley bears and the puget sound orca's from the endangered species list so their habitats can be developed)
the info posted above by str8dancer49 is good advice and i dont know if the rules have changed(seems like everything has) but it used to be if you asked an undercover law enforcement type if they were law enforcement ,they had to tell you...its entrapment otherwise...i dont know if that still holds true or not tho...
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Old 03-27-2006, 04:29 PM   #27
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yeah it's hard to tell with the patriot act crap in place
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Old 03-27-2006, 04:33 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear
yeah it's hard to tell with the patriot act crap in place
yup scary times right now....well if the govt is seizing all these feathers maybe we all need to send in for free eagles from them and overwhelm them
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Old 03-27-2006, 06:51 PM   #29
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Quote:
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okay question here's this feather bust that happened in Texas, it is due because he is from a state reconized tribe and not federal reconized tribe....

does this mean only federal reconized tribes are the only ones to posses feathers???

or does this mean they are downsizing yet another part of culture?????

Only Federally recog. tribes are supposed to have feathers.... and according to what I've heard/learned you damn well better have documentation. In all honesty I think this is the biggest crock of horse snit I have ever heard. I guess all those folks that have feathers hundreds of years old are supposed to just pass them up? How bout hell no. 1badazzndn said it best..... "Im sorry but if someone is going to take my feathers, they better be ready to take me to jail too for assualt. They can take them from my cold, dead hands."

I think they're trying to downsize... and even though it's jacked up, I'm not at all surprised.
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Old 03-27-2006, 10:17 PM   #30
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This is the letter that went before the one singing otter posted, hopefully this doesnt happen to anyone else that's on the powwow trail:

Dear Friends:

I want to thank you for all the prayers and all the support you have sent, and for all your e-mails; they have brought such encouragement to our hearts. I also want to thank you for all your advice and research results you have sent us.

Today we, my brother-in-law and I, met with our lawyer and he explained in detail to us all that he had found. In reality, it sounded more technical than my mind could handle. I have learned a lot during my journey down this path that God the Creator has allowed me to go through. So I will tell you what we have to do, and what I have learned through this experience.



WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO?
Our lawyer tried everything to help us keep our feathers but at the end, he could find no route to accomplish that. He carefully studied all the court cases that I sent to him that were sent to me by a lot of you, and also found several himself. While the cases I was sent seemed to work to our favor, he also found many others that did not. His concern, which is a valid concern, was that if we fought the federal government in this issue it would backfire on us with a big possibility of losing, resulting in an even greater battle for my freedom in the future, which he stated would affect a lot of areas of my life. So we decided to accept the federal agents proposal. This does not mean they have won the war, just one little battle. We will continue to fight, but I will explain that later. Unless the federal agent changes his mind, we are looking at the following penalties: first of all, I will receive a verbal warning and not be charged any fines, but will have to give him my two roach feathers. For my brother-in-law, he will receive a reduced fine of $500 and all the feathers I loaned him will be taken away. The original fine was $5,000. So after much prayer, by both of us and our lawyer, we decided that this could not be fought in the court system and that the whole situation was a no-win effort in our area. By the way, the two roach feathers that I have to turn in will not be turned in to the federal agent in his office. I told the lawyer that I would turn in my feathers in a neutral place like the lawyers office, and that as we turned in our feathers, we would have a mourning ceremony and sing a mourning song for our great loss. I will be taking four elders to our ceremony to witness the surrendering of our feathers to the United States Government.

WHAT HAVE I LEARNED?
What have I learned from this situation? First of all, I have learned that if you are not a federal-recognized Indian, according to federal law, you are not an Indian. Because the United States government defines a Native American as a person belonging to a federally recognized tribe. Secondly, if you do not belong to a federally recognized tribe, you do not have the same religious and ceremonial rights at those who are federally recognized. Thirdly, since we do not have the same rights as those who are federally recognized, we cannot even call ourselves Native Americans according to federal law. Fourthly, this means that anything we produce that is Native in character cannot be called Native American art or crafts. Fifthly, I have learned that the only legal feather is a feather issued to you by the depository set aside by the federal government. That means that even if you are carrying a BIA card, you are not entitled to carry those feathers unless you have a permit from the federal government. That also means that if you are gifted a feather and you do not belong to a federally recognized tribe, that gift is against the law. Sixthly, if you are gifted a feather, when you receive that feather you have to report to the feather depository with all the information they ask for like who gave you the feather, his permit number, etc, and register it with the federal government and wait for a special permit that states that this feather has been given to you by someone who legally received the feather through the United States government. This means that if any of your Indian friends who have the proper credentials give you a feather and you do not have a BIA card or your tribe is not federally recognized, that feather is illegal and cannot be used under federal law. I could bore you with more logistics, but these are the ones I remember.

So what I have learned through all this is that if you are not a card-carrying Indian with a number issued to you by your tribe which has been federally recognized, you are not an Indian according to federal law. These are laws; many of them given to the United States government by federally recognized tribes to protect the rights of those who are federally recognized. And sad to say, the law is the law. So, who am I? is my question. This is where you have to make a decision in your heart. As I told my lawyer, "I am a Lipan Apache Indian. I was brought up a Lipan Apache Indian. We have been practicing our culture ever since I can remember. We have a history, and ancestors who made us who we are. Because of all this, I have convictions in my heart for the right to use what I feel are my God-given rights as a Lipan Apache. The law might tell me otherwise, but that does not change who I am and who God has created me."

Our lawyer told me that if things are going to change, it will not be in the court system but through our governmental officials. He said that we have to unite ourselves and let our politicians know what is happening, and that laws need to be changed. Now our lawyer did tell me one thing of great interest to all who are not federally recognized. That within the next year or two, a case is getting ready to go to the Supreme Court over this issue, feathers and the those who are not federally recognized. He said there is a big possibility that the laws will change because eagles are no longer an endangered species. So keep an eye open for that, and see what we can do to help them decide for all of us who do not carry a BIA card.

WHAT DO I PLAN TO DO?
I do not know about you and your tribe, but we did not survive all these years in the deserts by hiding and running away. As soon as this is over, I need your help to inform the following representatives about what has happened. Not so much about the feathers, but of what I feel are still violations of our religious rights as Native Americans and how our circle was violated when the officer came in with no regard to who we are as Indian people. I have a letter ready to go from our tribal chairman which I will e-mail to all who have written to me the last week and a half. If you really care and want to do something to correct what has happened, I encourage you to invest $1.56 in four stamps and write to the four political representatives whose names I will provide as soon as this is over. Many of you have said to me, "What else can I do besides pray? Well, here will be your opportunity to do something. Can you imagine what would happen if four or five thousand letters poured into the offices of our political officials? At least the voice of our Indian people will be heard. I am praying that more than four or five thousand letters come in. I am praying that with your help, you can get the word around and thousands more will come in. This will at least give them a little idea of the gravity of the issue and that this is not just Robert Soto in South Texas speaking, but the whole world.

WHAT CAN YOU PRAY FOR?
All this time we have been asking you to pray for Mike and me. By the way, Mike is my brother-in-law. But there are some spiritual issues I need you to pray for. This issue has affected our children. Many of our children are afraid of the federal government now and see them as the bad people because they will not allow us to be who we are, Indians. As Dillon, one of my nephews said to his mother, "Why should we dance if we cannot wear our feathers?" I know the feathers do not make the Indian, but at the same time, they are a symbol of who we are and who God the Creator made us. In 1847, the state of Texas passed a law outlawing not just the Lipan Apaches, but all Indian tribes from within its borders. It was at this time that we went underground with our ceremonies and language and dances. If our ancestors were captured as Indians they were either sent to the Mescalero Reservation in New Mexico, or imprisoned, or killed and scalped because the scalp of a Lipan Apache brought 100 pesos for a man's scalp, 75 pesos for a woman's scalp and 50 pesos for our child's scalp. This is our history; maybe you are wondering, "Why are you telling us this and what does this have to do with eagle feathers?" I tell you this because we will never be able to have a family traditional gathering again without the worry of a federal official deciding to make a name for himself and deciding to come and take our feathers or the feathers of anyone attending our celebration. So once again, we will have to take our ceremonies and pow wows underground and not invite the public or advertise for others to come. Pray for us, the Lipan Apaches. This will take a long time to recover.

I will write more after the turning over of our feathers. It will be a very emotional event. Keep us in prayer.

Robert Soto Lipan Apache Warrior for Jesus
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Old 03-28-2006, 11:40 AM   #31
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Red face

I remember the big feather bust of the late 70s’ and again in the 90s’. All types of law cases have been brought before the courts to either stop or make the laws clearer for Indians and Whites. But the law does state that only Fed. Rec. Indians can possess feathers and must have registration papers on all.

Now there are a few exceptions to this. Before the laws went into effect, it was possible to go in and have your feathers registered, listed and identified as being in your possession or families’ possession before the laws took place. That was for everyone no matter the blood line. So, you will see whites or nonnatives with feathers and they have papers. Many people who knew this law was going to happen in the mid to late 60’s got their feathers registered. Also, if you can proove through photos and historical documentation that the feathers have been in your family since before the laws took place. Good luck on that one. Cannot suddenly have a will leaving you your Great Grandfathers feathers, but you never know. However, you can never give, sell, or barter those items. Even museums will not touch them unless they have some great historic provedince.

The proof of burden is on the possessor at all times.

Even with the Eagle being taken off the endangered list, it is still on the Migratory Bird list and it will still be illegal to have the feathers. For instance or example, the Blue Jay is definitely not endangered in the Southeast, but you still cannot possess its feathers because it is migratory. And it doesn't matter how they died...cannot blame the cat. I tried. Gee, you could be arrested for picking up a stray feather in your own front yard. So they have you coming or going in any case.

Also, it was stated here that the problem lies with the Hobbyist dancers getting the most feathers, let’s look at that one as a general statement that cannot be proved. If you go to Hobbyist dances, there are FEW people showing big double and triple bustles of eagle feather dance bustles. But you will see lots of these feathers showing up at contest dances in Larger than life fans, bustles, epaulets or shoulder feathers, and trailers where NonNatives CANNOT dance. An investigation was done some years ago that actually showed that most birds were killed by electrical lines, poisons, and natural causes than by poaching by Indians and white. If I remember, poaching only contributed to 1% of the killing off of birds. Also there have been several cases of Indian Poachers in Canada killing birds for the Competition market…who ever maybe doing that?

Back in the 70s’, it was the Whites who got hit the most on those raids. It scared the hell of them and many got out of dancing or just went to really good painted feathers. There are some painted feathers out there that you cannot tell at 12” from the real thing. Also, Photographs cannot be used as evidence in trials for feathers because there are good reproductions out there. I have personally witnessed several of these busts and been privy to others. The Feds will use any means to get what they want. They will also let you register your feathers legally if you turn in all your friends who have feathers. That did and it has happened……choose some of your friends wisely….you never know who will come knocking on your door with a warrant to search your premises. I have seen a house with the paneling torn off the walls to see what is behind. And they do not pay for damage to your house.

So, keep those Federal Papers handy, or a good escape route out the back door of the dance. And good luck there, saw them cut off all retreats at a dance once.
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Old 03-28-2006, 04:32 PM   #32
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"If I remember, poaching only contributed to 1% of the killing off of birds."

according to US govt stats,15% of all eagle deaths(bald and golden )occur from poaching or gunshots...

"Many people who knew this law was going to happen in the mid to late 60’s got their feathers registered."

the protection for bald eagles was signed into law in 1940...in 1962,golden eagles were added....any feather (bald prior to 1940 and golden prior to 1962) is "grandfathered" and not covered under the protections...

"But the law does state that only Fed. Rec. Indians can possess feathers and must have registration papers on all."

this is from the usfw repository website... "Only enrolled members of a Federally recognized tribe can obtain a permit from the FWS, authorizing them to receive and possess eagle feathers from the Repository for religious purposes"...."Feathers or parts of bald or golden eagles and other migratory birds may NOT be sold, purchased, bartered, or traded. They may, however, be handed down to family members, from generation to generation, or from one Native American to another for religious purposes. Native Americans CAN NOT give eagle feathers or parts to non-Native Americans as a gift."
according to a USFW special agent,the FWS follows the morton policy,which states that indian people who are in possesion of eagle parts should NOT be hassled ....and that USFW doesnt have the man power to go after individuals at powwows...they will how ever go after any suspected of killing an eagle or selling parts... as of today the Morton Policy is still waht usfw acts under...it was also stated that when a legit indian (uder us govt law) applies for an eagle from the repository and recieves the bird,there is a registration number for that bird...when the bird is delivered USFW does NOT track the parts of that specific bird,USFW knows that birds are taken apart and used for different family members and for objects used by other tribal members...it was stated again that USFW doesnt have the resources to track parts after they are delivered...the repository requires you file a change of address so that the files stay current if you have applied for more than one bird and are back on the waiting list to recieve another...

"If you go to Hobbyist dances, there are FEW people showing big double and triple bustles of eagle feather dance bustles. But you will see lots of these feathers showing up at contest dances in Larger than life fans, bustles, epaulets or shoulder feathers, and trailers where NonNatives CANNOT dance."

of course you see them at powwows...legit indians are allowed by federal law to possess eagle feathers,hobbists are not ...

"Also, it was stated here that the problem lies with the Hobbyist dancers getting the most feathers, let’s look at that one as a general statement that cannot be proved"

again according to a special agent for USFW,there have been a large number of arrests for possesion with intent to sell eagle parts by non indian people as well as indian people and a significant amount of arrests for the sale or attempted sale have been at non-indian events....

theres alot of mis-information floating around...above posts have stated some very good ideas about how to handle a situation if you are confronted by an agent...and the bottom line is ,if youre legit indian theres nothing to worry about...if youre not...
im interested in robert sotos emails and post regarding his feathers being seized...no where does he say exactly what agency his feathers were seized by or name the agent who seized them...was this US Fish and wildlife or a state agency?
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Old 03-29-2006, 01:39 AM   #33
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What a sad day for Indian people

I found this to be so sad and heartbreaking for all of us native people. This is something I do not know to much about, so I will keep this simple. It's pretty bad that all the soilders fighting overseas for freedom, but the american indians dont really have any. In a country where the creator put us. The US gov. treats people from different countries far better than, the native people of this land. This to me a just a way for them to try to get rid of us, like they did in the past. It is really sad that the federal gov. has to say who is really indian and who is not. What gives them the right to say which tribes are real indians, and which ones are not. We were all indians long before the federal gov. came to be. And before the ships came from the other side. Why should they pick and choose, fed. from state indian? To me if your indian, your an indian. It shouldn't matter what the government says. You should have the right to have the feathers, or anything that is apart of your culture and beliefs, no matter what. I have stated my opinion, and I think this is truly a sad time for us natives. My thoughts are with Mr. Soto and his family.
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Old 03-29-2006, 03:59 AM   #34
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This is all just a big pile of badly written laws that result in addressing a very minute problem by firing both barrels at NDN's who should otherwise be entitled to the right to follow traditional practices. In no way does a multi-eagle bustle (or deer hooves on the ankle bands for that matter) pose a threat to the ecosystem or encourage illegal poaching of animals.

Has anyone thought of writing their Senators and asking that these laws be looked into and reformed? This might sound laughable to some, but I guarantee it won't change unless *some effort* is made to change the legislation.
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Old 03-29-2006, 01:23 PM   #35
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Many people have writtn their Congressmen and Senators and gone before the Supreme Court. Their basis for many of these cases was religious freedom, birthright, unfair confescation of private property and Persecution. Unless there is a change in the laws...nothing will happen. But your representatives do not want to get involved in the dispute. It is considered not important enough.

No matter where the facts and inforation come from, these laws are screwed up and only a joint case backed by all of us can get the laws changed. This is not just an Indian vs. White thing....these laws can be interpreted to take away other items that might be termed "endangered". But it takes money to do this and lawers who will give the time to make the fight.

This talk has been going on since the late 60s'. when all this mess started. What has been done in the last years to bring it to light. NOT MUCH.
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Old 03-29-2006, 05:19 PM   #36
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[QUOTE=tipis] Many people have writtn their Congressmen and Senators and gone before the Supreme Court. Their basis for many of these cases was religious freedom, birthright, unfair confescation of private property and Persecution. Unless there is a change in the laws...nothing will happen. But your representatives do not want to get involved in the dispute. It is considered not important enough.

No matter where the facts and inforation come from, these laws are screwed up and only a joint case backed by all of us can get the laws changed. This is not just an Indian vs. White thing....these laws can be interpreted to take away other items that might be termed "endangered". But it takes money to do this and lawers who will give the time to make the fight.

This talk has been going on since the late 60s'. when all this mess started. What has been done in the last years to bring it to light. NOT MUCH. [/QUOTE
ive never heard of any court case involving feathers before the supreme court and legit indians are generally covered under the Freedom of Indian Religion Act of 1978...im sure there was an outcry from the non-indian sector regarding feathers after the golden eagle was added to the proteced status that balds were in 1940 but in Indian world most legit indian people dont really care what the govt thinks....the place where most feather busts seem to occur is at powwows and not at ceremonies...i seriously doubt you will ever see an Indian lobbying congress to allow non-Indians to possess feathers...its one of those rare privledges we are allowed that are inclusive to us
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Old 03-29-2006, 06:33 PM   #37
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There have been a few cases that have gone before the Supreme Court if you look deep enough. I have copies or information on a couple. But, as usuall you have missread my material. Again, unless WE all ban together on the issue it will get worse. There are many people out there who are not on the "Rolls" or affiliated with other tribes not on the "Rolls" or do not care to be included on the "Rolls" or who have anitque collections of material that can not be sold, bartered or given away because of the LAWS. No one is advocating that they want an Indian to let whites have feathers for dancing. But there are those out there that have just as a much reason to have their feathers as you,sokoki_wolf. If you could get off the bias you seem to have toward other people on this site and your attacking posture, you might find out more information in a positive way. One is what you call a "legit" Indian...so state Indians are not includes. That sure lets out a number of people on this site.
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Old 03-29-2006, 06:46 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tipis
There have been a few cases that have gone before the Supreme Court if you look deep enough. I have copies or information on a couple. But, as usuall you have missread my material. Again, unless WE all ban together on the issue it will get worse. There are many people out there who are not on the "Rolls" or affiliated with other tribes not on the "Rolls" or do not care to be included on the "Rolls" or who have anitque collections of material that can not be sold, bartered or given away because of the LAWS. No one is advocating that they want an Indian to let whites have feathers for dancing. But there are those out there that have just as a much reason to have their feathers as you,sokoki_wolf. If you could get off the bias you seem to have toward other people on this site and your attacking posture, you might find out more information in a positive way. One is what you call a "legit" Indian...so state Indians are not includes. That sure lets out a number of people on this site.
id love to read those cases tipis ive always had an intrest in law as i was pre-law....and contrary to what you think,im not bais at all..i post on here and try to have an eductaed discussion on issues...im not the one who attacks and calls people "boobs" for asking a simple question...you seem to have this huge chip on your shoulder when anyone challenges what you think is right...and you also seem to slam and attack anyone who doesnt follow your line of thinking( isnt that a bit hypocritical)...its interesting to see who you chose to slam and dont,many people have challenged what you post tipis,but you seem to single out only a few to slam back...why is that?...if you dont like your posts being challenged then post info thats correct...anyone who knows me ,knows i am not bias or racist or predjudice at all..im also very secure in the fact of who and what i am in this world,and if you knew me at all,then you would know i dont post or reply to things that i dont know about...ive spent the better part of my life fighting for human rights not only indian rights...i find it intersting tho,that you include collectors with old antique collections in among the non fed recognized indians( and yes i think all INDIAN people should be allowed feathers )...if you indeed know what youre talking about ,then you would know that antiqued feathers in collections are not included in the protection laws...other wise museums wouldnt be allowed to add to their collections etc....and there are certain non indian people who are allowed as well to possess eagle feathers...like the president of the united states...its not uncommon at all for the pres to be given a gift of feathers...am i for everyone being able to possess feathers.nope,im not...i also think it should be a federal crime to practice native religons with out proper authority(same as it is for christians),im for self determination ,assertion of soverignty ,on and on....and i am only human tipis and i dont have an ego to fed and i can easily admit when im wrong ...i cant possibly know everything ,and im sure ive missed a few indian cases along the way...if you post cases numbers of any feather cases before the supreme court id love to look at them...as far as freedom of religon.Indian people dont go out looking to convert and we dont have a pan religon as many seem to think we do...there have been attempts by non indian ppl to use that defense in court and its failed on most occassions...there is no religon in the US that has a history of use of eagle feathers in their practices other than ndn religon...NAC members are allowed to use and possess and harvest peyote but that right isnt given to non NAC members ...and no i didnt misread what you wrote,i am educated and can read perfectly well tipis...
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Old 03-29-2006, 08:31 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tipis
There have been a few cases that have gone before the Supreme Court if you look deep enough. I have copies or information on a couple. But, as usuall you have missread my material. Again, unless WE all ban together on the issue it will get worse. There are many people out there who are not on the "Rolls" or affiliated with other tribes not on the "Rolls" or do not care to be included on the "Rolls" or who have anitque collections of material that can not be sold, bartered or given away because of the LAWS. No one is advocating that they want an Indian to let whites have feathers for dancing. But there are those out there that have just as a much reason to have their feathers as you,sokoki_wolf. If you could get off the bias you seem to have toward other people on this site and your attacking posture, you might find out more information in a positive way. One is what you call a "legit" Indian...so state Indians are not includes. That sure lets out a number of people on this site.
This discussion was going really well..... I've learned a lot and has really made me think. I notice here though that instead of clarifying a point made ..... it was directed instead to the person not the point. That can tend to get folks like me sidetracked or lose interest in a thread because of it possibly turning into yet another pissing match. Let's all ban together and keep the focus on the problems...... not on individuals opinions or comments.
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Old 03-29-2006, 08:33 PM   #40
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Let's all ban together and keep the focus on the problems...... not on individuals opinions or comments.
I made a funny!!!
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