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-   -   Two-Spirit People (http://forums.powwows.com/f26/two-spirit-people-35855/)

MixedIndian 11-18-2006 09:56 PM

Two-Spirit People
 
It's me again, Ms Inquizitive!! Anyway, with the nation fussing about gay marriage rights and what not, I was wondering how folks here feel about Two-Spirit people, or gay/lesbian NDNs. I know it is a very controversal subject, but to many, a very important one. And from what I've researched, this is not new to Native American culture-at least the gay/lesbian part. Have your ancesters talked to you all about this? Are they any gay/lesbian/two-spirit people in your familiy (no, they don't have to be out)? I thought this would be an interesting thread and would like to hear opinions on it.

DaCotau 11-20-2006 06:21 PM

There are a few other threads posted about this issue. My personal opinion is that gay/lesbian people should have the same rights and opportunities as everyone else and they should not be made to feel ashamed about who they are. I have gay/lesbian family members (yes, on the Indian side of my family!) and gay/lesbian friends. As far as I am concerned I judge people based on what type of human being they are, if they are loving, good hearted individuals, then that is all that matters to me.

SuzzeQ4 11-20-2006 06:40 PM

I also believe that Gays/Lesbians should have the same rights as everyone else. Anytime you with hold rights from a group of ppl, it makes it easier to with hold rights from another group of ppl.
I have a Gay brother in law & we have Gay & Lesbian friends including a couple who recently had a Native Wedding, our whole community was there. We have a few prominant Gay & Lesbian couples in our community.
I live in Canada, so it's all legal, unless those damn conservatives get thier way...still trying to figure out who voted in those freaks but anyway...
Suzze

*Brown Eyed Gurl* 11-20-2006 07:03 PM

Geeez with all the gays getting soooo much support these days i almost wish i was gay too :razz:

2lineCarrandMorgan 11-20-2006 07:31 PM

well sence you asked and the questen had been rised latly

i have a gay indian daughter inlaw yep my eldest is gay too
i asked my daughter inlaw if she was two spirited and she just looked at me lol i guess thier just gay lol
lol

im moma to both of them and sometimes is like she a son
but i tease her about how female she is.thay love me and i love them we all went to powwow here in austin no one said any thing bad to any of us and my grand children were thier too,
i dont think the two spirit is taught any more but she was raise anbenckney in vermont so i dont know about that.
also she did a tour in Quaitie Irock befor she got
out of the army.
oh by the way Im strate, and dont want him any other way
when he finds me that is lol

ps i keep thinking btw and miilk are going to worrie but you got to love first,

Lakota Wiyan 11-20-2006 08:08 PM

I think most tribes have their own views of "gay/lesbian" people, but I can only tell you what I know about "our" Winkte. These were men who did women's work, and dressed and behaved like a woman. I know that a few of them would live together and keep house together, but as is EVERYONE's right, their sexual life was never NEVER EVER a topic of discussion. That was between them, if they wanted to, just like any heterosexual person. But, since these Winkte were more women than men, I don't image they would be intimate, like in a Homosexual way, but then again, who cares!!!!????!!! Gah, I can't believe I'm talking about this.....Got the indian blush going on now.....

I don't think that the European/Wasicu way of looking at people with different lifestyles can be directly applied to our cultures, regardless of what tribe you are from. Their was is very judgemental and full of fear. In my own tribe, men worry about men things, women worry about women things, and when they had to get together and worry about the tribe, I don't think that anyone's sexuality was a factor in who had a voice or rights, and who did not. The Winktes I know are extraordinarily gifted in beadwork, sewing, quillwork, or singing and dancing. They are also good horsemen (people??), and from my own experience, they make the best, the VERY best babysitters.....but oooooweeeee....the winktes I know sure can gossip....even more than ME!!

Coyot_In_The_House 11-21-2006 12:16 PM

Good Point
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakota Wiyan
I think most tribes have their own views of "gay/lesbian" people, but I can only tell you what I know about "our" Winkte. These were men who did women's work, and dressed and behaved like a woman. I know that a few of them would live together and keep house together, but as is EVERYONE's right, their sexual life was never NEVER EVER a topic of discussion. That was between them, if they wanted to, just like any heterosexual person. But, since these Winkte were more women than men, I don't image they would be intimate, like in a Homosexual way, but then again, who cares!!!!????!!! Gah, I can't believe I'm talking about this.....Got the indian blush going on now.....

I don't think that the European/Wasicu way of looking at people with different lifestyles can be directly applied to our cultures, regardless of what tribe you are from. Their was is very judgemental and full of fear. In my own tribe, men worry about men things, women worry about women things, and when they had to get together and worry about the tribe, I don't think that anyone's sexuality was a factor in who had a voice or rights, and who did not. The Winktes I know are extraordinarily gifted in beadwork, sewing, quillwork, or singing and dancing. They are also good horsemen (people??), and from my own experience, they make the best, the VERY best babysitters.....but oooooweeeee....the winktes I know sure can gossip....even more than ME!!

Well said....

In the future it would be nice if people took the proper steps to acquire knowledge or information....If you are not sure of the protocol, ask....

It seems to me conversations of this nature tend to confuse people and perpetuate stereotypes....

MixedIndian 11-21-2006 06:22 PM

I know quite a few gay people, and I think they are the best. And one is of Native desent (Aztec/Mexican). One of the others is a mixed one like myself.

TKMJ Productions 11-21-2006 09:19 PM

So we are talking about "two spirits" on this thread. Not a problem unless you have questions about your own sexuality. If you are comfortable with who and what you are, a two spirited person should not concern you at all. Yes there are two spirits in our native community. Every other community has them too. It's just part of life.

A two spirited person can usually see both sides male and female. That makes them good people to help exchange idea between the sexes. Role reversal was and still is common. Some just keep to themselves because of what the white society has taught them. It's sad because a two spirit has so much to offer the community.

I know this for a fact because I have learned much from a native two spirit who happens to be an employee and a good friend of mine. I didn't hire her because she was a two spirit. I hired her because she was good at the job she does. She is also dedicated and reliable. Sky is one of my best audio engineers. That's a fact!

MixedIndian 11-22-2006 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions
So we are talking about "two spirits" on this thread. Not a problem unless you have questions about your own sexuality. If you are comfortable with who and what you are, a two spirited person should not concern you at all. Yes there are two spirits in our native community. Every other community has them too. It's just part of life.


It's not a problem at all, I'm pretty comfortable in my own skin. :wink:

I know quite a few gay people, and I think they are the best. And one is of Native desent (Aztec/Mexican). One of the others is a mixed one like myself.

TKMJ Productions 11-22-2006 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixedIndian

It's not a problem at all, I'm pretty comfortable in my own skin. :wink:


Me too!!!! Except at being over 50 my skin don't fit as well as when I was in my 20s. It's a bit loose but it's OK :tapedshut

It must have something to do with the food talk on the boards here. :shades_sm

Coyot_In_The_House 11-22-2006 12:27 PM

Back in College
 
When I was young and somewhat dumb.....Our NDN student association was having a powwow, so I attended a powwow meeting. Much to my suprise there were several people (non-Indians) who attended the meeting and offered support.....hey that was fine, no problem....BUT as we went around the room and introduced ourselves. A woman explained how she was a member of a group who encountered similar racist and ignorant "isms" that skins experienced....As she continued I sat there wondering where she was going with this? Eventually she said she was a Lesibian....well I said I was young and somewhat dumb.....I cut her right off and asked; "what does your sexuality have to do with me being Indian?" Mind you my delivery was by far not sugar coated.....Looking back I did not have to be so extreme, but again I was young and naive....

My point.....Keep your dogs out of my backyard....

DaCotau 11-22-2006 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coyot_In_The_House
When I was young and somewhat dumb.....Our NDN student association was having a powwow, so I attended a powwow meeting. Much to my suprise there were several people (non-Indians) who attended the meeting and offered support.....hey that was fine, no problem....BUT as we went around the room and introduced ourselves. A woman explained how she was a member of a group who encountered similar racist and ignorant "isms" that skins experienced....As she continued I sat there wondering where she was going with this? Eventually she said she was a Lesibian....well I said I was young and somewhat dumb.....I cut her right off and asked; "what does your sexuality have to do with me being Indian?" Mind you my delivery was by far not sugar coated.....Looking back I did not have to be so extreme, but again I was young and naive....

My point.....Keep your dogs out of my backyard....

Although I am sure this woman made her statements with the best of intentions (I guess she was trying to forge some kind of connection), I personally would have been embarassed for her (and maybe a little angry too) had I been there. Obviously you were not the only naive one that day.

Coyot_In_The_House 11-24-2006 01:35 PM

Learning experience.....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaCotau
Although I am sure this woman made her statements with the best of intentions (I guess she was trying to forge some kind of connection), I personally would have been embarassed for her (and maybe a little angry too) had I been there. Obviously you were not the only naive one that day.

Experiences help us grow, wether we learn from them or not. Yes I was naive....as well as her...However i've grown to undersatnd or I should say respect people and the choices or lifestyles they live....Its tough sometimes because certain things like sexuality, to me....should remain private....Just my take on it.....It becomes more complicated when people mix understandings of today's mainstream society with the teachings and traditional values of Aboriginal peoples....You can only imagine how confusing it can be....

anishinabealltheway 11-24-2006 04:41 PM

aaahhh... the elusive gay indian I've never seen one in their natural habitat before ,other than when I look in the mirror that is. I just wish there were more . :thumbsup:

TKMJ Productions 11-24-2006 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anishinabealltheway
aaahhh... the elusive gay indian I've never seen one in their natural habitat before ,other than when I look in the mirror that is. I just wish there were more . :thumbsup:

And you thought that you were an exclusive. Sorry! there are one or two more out there.

Welcome to the boards.

2lineCarrandMorgan 11-24-2006 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anishinabealltheway
aaahhh... the elusive gay indian I've never seen one in their natural habitat before ,other than when I look in the mirror that is. I just wish there were more . :thumbsup:

i like what you said and how you said it,
may i add my welcome to you
jennifer
2line

DaCotau 11-24-2006 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coyot_In_The_House
Experiences help us grow, wether we learn from them or not. Yes I was naive....as well as her...However i've grown to undersatnd or I should say respect people and the choices or lifestyles they live....Its tough sometimes because certain things like sexuality, to me....should remain private....Just my take on it.....It becomes more complicated when people mix understandings of today's mainstream society with the teachings and traditional values of Aboriginal peoples....You can only imagine how confusing it can be....

I don't want to get too off subject but I think most of the confusion happens on the part of non-ndns who think they know and understand ndn people and traditions when they absolutely do not. This often leads to many embarassing and awkward moments.

wulfgirl 11-24-2006 09:11 PM

Two spirit people
 
To me, people are just that, people. I have a number of friends and family members who are gay and lesbian and I love them no less than my straight friends and family members. Understanding and compassion make this world a better place for all.

TKMJ Productions 11-24-2006 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wulfgirl
To me, people are just that, people. I have a number of friends and family members who are gay and lesbian and I love them no less than my straight friends and family members. Understanding and compassion make this world a better place for all.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Good start on the boards with good words!!!! Welcome!!!!!!


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