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Old 11-25-2006, 01:31 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wulfgirl
To me, people are just that, people. I have a number of friends and family members who are gay and lesbian and I love them no less than my straight friends and family members. Understanding and compassion make this world a better place for all.

Well said, and welcome to the boards!!

Yes, there are more and more-seek and you shall find!
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Old 11-25-2006, 05:05 PM   #22
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I believe that if you are homosexual then that's your right to live as you wish.....

But, there is a time and a place for everything.....

If God had intended for 2 males or females to be togather, then why can't 2 ladies become one and produce a child?

And why can't 2 men become one and produce a child?

It's not natural ........

and then they think they deserve special rights and fight for them within the government........

God's Greatest Commandment is TO Love One Another !!!!!!

That does not mean have sexual relations with the same sex gender...........

With that in mind, I don't hate the homosexual, I hate the sin.
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Old 11-25-2006, 06:19 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRANDSON OF ZEELA
I believe that if you are homosexual then that's your right to live as you wish.....

But, there is a time and a place for everything.....

If God had intended for 2 males or females to be togather, then why can't 2 ladies become one and produce a child?

And why can't 2 men become one and produce a child?

It's not natural ........

and then they think they deserve special rights and fight for them within the government........

God's Greatest Commandment is TO Love One Another !!!!!!

That does not mean have sexual relations with the same sex gender...........

With that in mind, I don't hate the homosexual, I hate the sin.
PUT YOUR STONES AWAY LOL
AND JUST THINK FOR A MINUTE SHOULD IT REALLY MATTER WAT SEX SOME ONE IS OR THAT U LOVE THEM IN A WAY YOU DONT CONTROL, THINK ABOUT IT YOU REALLY HAVE NO CONTROL OVERWHO U LOVE AND WHO U DONT......THATS WHY TRYING TO "UNLOVE" SOME ONE SEEMS SO HARD.....I BELIEVE A GAY MAN/WOMAN IS THAT WAY NOT BY CHOICE BUT BY BIRTH GOD DDNT MAKE ANY MISTAKES.....AND HE LOVES US ALL THE SAME, ALL SIN IS EQUAL SO HOW CAN U CALLOUT HOMOSEXUALS AS IF U ARE NOT A LIAR, ADULTER, MURDERER........... THE BIBLE SAYS ANY ONE WHO HAS HATED IS A MURDERER, WE ARE ALL SINNERS ONE NO BETTER THAN THE OTHER................
THIS IS JENIFER'S DAUGHTER JOCELYN AND I'M 16, MY MOM HAS ASKED MY OPINION ON THIS SUBJECT, AND HAVING A SISTER WHO IS GAY I KNO SHE IS JUST LIKE ALL OF US IN EVERY WAY, AND DESERVES THE RIGHTS GIVEN TO HER AT BIRTH......TO BE HAPPY, TO BE FREE, AND TO BELONG, SO TELL ME WHAT U FIGHT FOR.........??? THIS REMINDS ME OF WHEN SEGRAGATION WAS OK AND A PART OF EVERY ONMES LIFE...NO ONE SAW A PROBLEM W/IT EXCEPT FOR THE ONES BEING OPPRESSED, NOW WE ALL SEE THE MISTAKE THAT WAS MADE AND IT HAS BEEN CORRECTED. I GO TO HISTORY CLASS EVERYDAY AND SEE A POSTER ON THE WALL THAT SAYS "WE LEARN OF OUR HISTORY SO WE DO NOT REPEAT THE MISTAKES OF OUR FATHERS" , AND PLEASE REMEMBER ALL THOSE WHO HATED BLACKS, MEXICAN, INDIANS, ECT, WENT TO CHURCH AND CLAIMED TO BE CHRISTIANS........ JUST THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.........
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Old 11-25-2006, 07:56 PM   #24
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Cool points!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2lineCarrandMorgan
PUT YOUR STONES AWAY LOL
AND JUST THINK FOR A MINUTE SHOULD IT REALLY MATTER WAT SEX SOME ONE IS OR THAT U LOVE THEM IN A WAY YOU DONT CONTROL, THINK ABOUT IT YOU REALLY HAVE NO CONTROL OVERWHO U LOVE AND WHO U DONT......THATS WHY TRYING TO "UNLOVE" SOME ONE SEEMS SO HARD.....I BELIEVE A GAY MAN/WOMAN IS THAT WAY NOT BY CHOICE BUT BY BIRTH GOD DDNT MAKE ANY MISTAKES.....AND HE LOVES US ALL THE SAME, ALL SIN IS EQUAL SO HOW CAN U CALLOUT HOMOSEXUALS AS IF U ARE NOT A LIAR, ADULTER, MURDERER........... THE BIBLE SAYS ANY ONE WHO HAS HATED IS A MURDERER, WE ARE ALL SINNERS ONE NO BETTER THAN THE OTHER................
THIS IS JENIFER'S DAUGHTER JOCELYN AND I'M 16, MY MOM HAS ASKED MY OPINION ON THIS SUBJECT, AND HAVING A SISTER WHO IS GAY I KNO SHE IS JUST LIKE ALL OF US IN EVERY WAY, AND DESERVES THE RIGHTS GIVEN TO HER AT BIRTH......TO BE HAPPY, TO BE FREE, AND TO BELONG, SO TELL ME WHAT U FIGHT FOR.........??? THIS REMINDS ME OF WHEN SEGRAGATION WAS OK AND A PART OF EVERY ONMES LIFE...NO ONE SAW A PROBLEM W/IT EXCEPT FOR THE ONES BEING OPPRESSED, NOW WE ALL SEE THE MISTAKE THAT WAS MADE AND IT HAS BEEN CORRECTED. I GO TO HISTORY CLASS EVERYDAY AND SEE A POSTER ON THE WALL THAT SAYS "WE LEARN OF OUR HISTORY SO WE DO NOT REPEAT THE MISTAKES OF OUR FATHERS" , AND PLEASE REMEMBER ALL THOSE WHO HATED BLACKS, MEXICAN, INDIANS, ECT, WENT TO CHURCH AND CLAIMED TO BE CHRISTIANS........ JUST THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.........

Oh thank you, my child!! Not only do you deserve a special seat in heaven for that statement, you get cool points from me!!
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Old 11-25-2006, 08:23 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRANDSON OF ZEELA
I believe that if you are homosexual then that's your right to live as you wish.....

But, there is a time and a place for everything.....

If God had intended for 2 males or females to be togather, then why can't 2 ladies become one and produce a child?

And why can't 2 men become one and produce a child?

It's not natural ........

and then they think they deserve special rights and fight for them within the government........

God's Greatest Commandment is TO Love One Another !!!!!!

That does not mean have sexual relations with the same sex gender...........

With that in mind, I don't hate the homosexual, I hate the sin.

I think that it shows a certain level of immaturity to combine the concept of "God's commandment to Love" with the term "Hate", whether it is the Sin or the Sinner. That exact concept is what White Supremicist groups use to justify their rages and torments on people who do not believe as they do. They use that exact phrasing to justify their hate......so thanks for so eloquently introducing yourself in such a manner.

It's funny to image that any native person would actually come into THIS website and literally Preach to us like this...It is their right to, and our right to ignore as well, but I just had to comment on how clearly we can be reminded of the Missionary work that paved the way for so many settlers into the Native Lands, and how the Bible was twisted and mangled to suit the needs of the Europeans who wanted to "convert" and ultimately destroy spiritual and cultural beliefs....All in the name of JESUS??? Hate on, Grandson of Zeela...Hate on!
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Old 11-25-2006, 08:54 PM   #26
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Hello everyone,
I found this an interesting board and thought I would post a little thought of mine as I read the messages here.

The two spirit path is one that allows someone to walk between the two worlds (male and female). It really has little to do with SEX but has come to be seen as a way for gay and lesbian folks who follow the red road to "belong.'

I can only speak from my personal experiences. I was exposed to the red road several years ago. As a gay man I have found great spiritual guidance from the red road. I have not met two many folks on this path that turned thier backs on me. Most people are very much accepting of me. Many folks on and off the red road seek my counsel on a variety of issues. It is a hard path to walk. But I do what I can to help others in whatever way I can. I see my path in life as one of helping others the best I can. I give so others can have.

Life is filled with many wonderful things - too many of which we never notice.
Take time to slow down and see what is around you.
The flower will bloom and fade before most notice.
The bee will come and go without being seen.
The friends you have today will be gone tomorrow.
The path before you will take a turn - watch out you don't miss the turn.
Take the time to share the love you have been given.
Smile today, tomorrow may never come.

Anyway, just my thoughts as someone on a path...
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Old 11-25-2006, 09:10 PM   #27
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I think whether or not they are gay/lesbian has nothing to do with how you should always treat people. With RESPECT...everyone deserves it no matter who they love or live with or what they do behind their closed doors. They are people with feelings and thoughts and spirits who need to be loved and respected like every other person on this planet and that should be all that matters. I have many family members who are "two spirits" and I wouldn't love them any less if they were pink with orange polkadots. It is all a matter of how they are in their hearts. If its a good heart then they are good people.

Sorry for the ramble but I had to put my two pickles worth in here.
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Old 11-25-2006, 10:37 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakota Wiyan
I think that it shows a certain level of immaturity to combine the concept of "God's commandment to Love" with the term "Hate", whether it is the Sin or the Sinner. That exact concept is what White Supremicist groups use to justify their rages and torments on people who do not believe as they do. They use that exact phrasing to justify their hate......so thanks for so eloquently introducing yourself in such a manner.

It's funny to image that any native person would actually come into THIS website and literally Preach to us like this...It is their right to, and our right to ignore as well, but I just had to comment on how clearly we can be reminded of the Missionary work that paved the way for so many settlers into the Native Lands, and how the Bible was twisted and mangled to suit the needs of the Europeans who wanted to "convert" and ultimately destroy spiritual and cultural beliefs....All in the name of JESUS??? Hate on, Grandson of Zeela...Hate on!
No, I am not here to destroy cultural beliefs!
where is it wrong to hate sin?
And where is it wrong to Love the sinner?

I have not come to destroy culture.

I have friends that are homosexual, and yes I love them as a brother and a sister.

I just wish they could reproduce, because they are loveable people.....
where is the wrong in that?

please tell me !!!!!!!
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Old 11-25-2006, 11:02 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2lineCarrandMorgan
PUT YOUR STONES AWAY LOL
AND JUST THINK FOR A MINUTE SHOULD IT REALLY MATTER WAT SEX SOME ONE IS OR THAT U LOVE THEM IN A WAY YOU DONT CONTROL, THINK ABOUT IT YOU REALLY HAVE NO CONTROL OVERWHO U LOVE AND WHO U DONT......THATS WHY TRYING TO "UNLOVE" SOME ONE SEEMS SO HARD.....I BELIEVE A GAY MAN/WOMAN IS THAT WAY NOT BY CHOICE BUT BY BIRTH GOD DDNT MAKE ANY MISTAKES.....AND HE LOVES US ALL THE SAME, ALL SIN IS EQUAL SO HOW CAN U CALLOUT HOMOSEXUALS AS IF U ARE NOT A LIAR, ADULTER, MURDERER........... THE BIBLE SAYS ANY ONE WHO HAS HATED IS A MURDERER, WE ARE ALL SINNERS ONE NO BETTER THAN THE OTHER................
THIS IS JENIFER'S DAUGHTER JOCELYN AND I'M 16, MY MOM HAS ASKED MY OPINION ON THIS SUBJECT, AND HAVING A SISTER WHO IS GAY I KNO SHE IS JUST LIKE ALL OF US IN EVERY WAY, AND DESERVES THE RIGHTS GIVEN TO HER AT BIRTH......TO BE HAPPY, TO BE FREE, AND TO BELONG, SO TELL ME WHAT U FIGHT FOR.........??? THIS REMINDS ME OF WHEN SEGRAGATION WAS OK AND A PART OF EVERY ONMES LIFE...NO ONE SAW A PROBLEM W/IT EXCEPT FOR THE ONES BEING OPPRESSED, NOW WE ALL SEE THE MISTAKE THAT WAS MADE AND IT HAS BEEN CORRECTED. I GO TO HISTORY CLASS EVERYDAY AND SEE A POSTER ON THE WALL THAT SAYS "WE LEARN OF OUR HISTORY SO WE DO NOT REPEAT THE MISTAKES OF OUR FATHERS" , AND PLEASE REMEMBER ALL THOSE WHO HATED BLACKS, MEXICAN, INDIANS, ECT, WENT TO CHURCH AND CLAIMED TO BE CHRISTIANS........ JUST THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.........
I also have a brother who is gay......
I don't hate him,
I love him
where is it wrong to hate sin?
and please quote the scripture where it says" who ever hates is a murder chapter and verse please
if you are talking about history

do you remember Sodomn and Gamoara and what God did to those two cities for the sin of homosexuality........

and yes they were created that way, so they could be born again. your right God doesn't make mistakes.....
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Old 11-25-2006, 11:11 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRANDSON OF ZEELA
I also have a brother who is gay......
I don't hate him,
I love him
where is it wrong to hate sin?
and please quote the scripture where it says" who ever hates is a murder chapter and verse please
if you are talking about history

do you remember Sodomn and Gamoara and what God did to those two cities for the sin of homosexuality........

and yes they were created that way, so they could be born again. your right God doesn't make mistakes.....

I think for the most part, people are sick of people using religion as a means of lashing out on gay people. I see your point (to an extent..) as well as theirs. I think it was just a bad idea to drag the Bible into this discussion!!
I myself am a gay woman-feel I might even be 'two-spirit" but won't claim it, as I don't know enough about the culture to say for sure. So far, my comming out experiences have been positive. My first year anniversary to my mom just passed. Most people think I'm straight b/c I have three boys (long story behind that one!!). The point of this really is to let folks know that we (gay people or two-spirit) are all the same, have the same goals, joy, pain and everything in between. I also know I feel better about myself about being "out" and about my sexuality than playing straight. And yes, besides other issues, I blame society for making me think I actually had to do that. But that's the past, no use crying over spilled milk!! I think having a spritual connection does help.
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Last edited by MixedIndian; 11-25-2006 at 11:20 PM.. Reason: Not finished
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Old 11-25-2006, 11:25 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixedIndian
Oh thank you, my child!! Not only do you deserve a special seat in heaven for that statement, you get cool points from me!!
thats kind of you to speake so well of my daughter,sometimes she sits with me at this old coumputer and reads the things at powwows and at times she will post under my name,but she will always note that it is her speaking , i have sheared much of our life on these pages and i am happy to do so. i have met so many warm intelangent understanding ppl here at powwows
and i love to see that my child is loved
happy and belonging.
i think thats how the Creator see it too.
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Old 11-26-2006, 12:05 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRANDSON OF ZEELA
I also have a brother who is gay......
I don't hate him,
I love him
where is it wrong to hate sin?
and please quote the scripture where it says" who ever hates is a murder chapter and verse please
if you are talking about history

do you remember Sodomn and Gamoara and what God did to those two cities for the sin of homosexuality.

and yes they were created that way, so they could be born again. your right God doesn't make mistakes.....
im not going there with you , your going to have to stand on how you figured out what you read, i do feel sorry for you tho
becouse you have forgoten the spirit and live by the law. and that would only make you a clanging bell if that what you want then that is what you have. take it to your father and open your eyes to the truth that is in everything he created
then come back to me or who ever and tell us of his love.
and if you need chapter and verce goolge it.
im not turning my back on you but im not going to play your game either.if you need help please go and find someone in your town and then you might see to send out his love.
and gosh old testement and he sent angle and some one was praying for 10 and in the city and noen could befound not everone was gay you nut it was be couse of unrightness .lol
it tuff trying to talk to you and im sorry buti dont knowyou and i dont even know if you amale or female i just dont know you
you dont tell ppl much about your self and the few time i have read your post your hitting ppl and then act supprised when ppl dont take, it i dont know you
are you ok do you have family that you talk to,are you married do you have kids , do you live alone are you ok?
really tear up what ever phamplet your reading off of and try to get real
jennifer
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Old 11-26-2006, 01:13 AM   #33
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Let's keep religion out of this thread. That's not what were talking about. Were not talking "right or wrong" per the bible or any other religious book.

500 years ago, two spirits in our culture were no different then they are today except for the influances taught by other invading cultures. Those teachings were stuffed down us by oppression. It caused a lot of us to be just like the cultures that show intollerence to others. Remember they all came here and attemted to distroy our culture. (there still trying) We didn't invade them.

In the old days each member of the community had a place and job. Everyone worked together. It didn't matter who or what you were, you had a part.

Because of invading cultures, the two spirit people have been forced to go underground so to speak. Is that fair to them? Is that fair to us as well? For hundreds of years out two spirited people have been forced to hide because of invading cultures that were out to distroy them.

For all these years a part of our people and yes other cultures have been forced to hide. Look at all that a two spirit does for our culture. Look at all that was lost because of other cultures that have damaged ours.

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Old 11-26-2006, 01:25 AM   #34
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Let's keep religion out of this thread. That's not what were talking about. Were not talking "right or wrong" per the bible or any other religious book.

500 years ago, two spirits in our culture were no different then they are today except for the influances taught by other invading cultures. Those teachings were stuffed down us by oppression. It caused a lot of us to be just like the cultures that show intollerence to others. Remember they all came here and attemted to distroy our culture. (there still trying) We didn't invade them.

In the old days each member of the community had a place and job. Everyone worked together. It didn't matter who or what you were, you had a part.

Because of invading cultures, the two spirit people have been forced to go underground so to speak. Is that fair to them? Is that fair to us as well? For hundreds of years out two spirited people have been forced to hide because of invading cultures that were out to distroy them.

For all these years a part of our people and yes other cultures have been forced to hide. Look at all that a two spirit does for our culture. Look at all that was lost because of other cultures that have damaged ours.

Every person has a purpose in this life!

Read my signature and believe it!
So are you saying that the anglo culture is responsible for the way people perceive gays/lesbians?
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Old 11-26-2006, 01:36 AM   #35
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So are you saying that the anglo culture is responsible for the way people percieve gays/lesbians?
In a way, Yes. From my teachings of our past, there wasn't a problem with two spirits. Each person had a part in the community no matter who they were. I'm sure that things were questioned but the two spirit was not out cast from our society.

Do your teaching teach you different?

Now that is the true topic we are looking for. Not the bible stuff.
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Old 11-26-2006, 01:43 AM   #36
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In a way, Yes. From my teachings of our past, there wasn't a problem with two spirits. Each person had a part in the community no matter who they were. I'm sure that things were questioned but the two spirit was not out cast from our society.

Do your teaching teach you different?

Now that is the true topic we are looking for. Not the bible stuff.
I was just seeing if we could keep it away from religious discussion. Unfortunately, anglicism and religion play an important part in this topic.
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Old 11-26-2006, 01:48 AM   #37
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I was just seeing if we could keep it away from religious discussion. Unfortunately, anglicism and religion play an important part in this topic.

Gotta agree with you! I was wanting the same.
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Old 11-26-2006, 02:18 AM   #38
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I was just seeing if we could keep it away from religious discussion. Unfortunately, anglicism and religion play an important part in this topic.
Well I think it plays a part in how some of our ppl have decided to look upon our two spirited ppl, (as a certain previous poster reminded us). However, when someone wants to know how we as ndn ppl feel about our two spirited ppl, I think we can all assume that the person asking was looking for an opinion form someone who wasn't assimlated into anglo-christian culture.

So yup, I think it's fair to want this discussion to vear away from an anglo-religious discussion, otherwise it's just going to get mean.
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Old 11-26-2006, 10:28 AM   #39
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When you love another person that means you love everything that makes them them. You can't state that you love one part of a person and despise another part. That makes no sense, and it is not truly love. I have seen first hand what happens when a person is made to feel like they have to pretend they are something they are not, and when they are taught to hate something that is unchangeable about themselves. To do this to another person is a form of murder, it is completely destructive to that persons spirit, and no one who truly cared or loved that person would do that to them.
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Old 11-26-2006, 02:25 PM   #40
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When you love another person that means you love everything that makes them them. You can't state that you love one part of a person and despise another part. That makes no sense, and it is not truly love. I have seen first hand what happens when a person is made to feel like they have to pretend they are something they are not, and when they are taught to hate something that is unchangeable about themselves. To do this to another person is a form of murder, it is completely destructive to that persons spirit, and no one who truly cared or loved that person would do that to them.

Oh, this is SO true!!! I went around doing this for years thinking it was something I had to do in order to 'survive'.
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