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Old 11-30-2006, 09:48 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by tsuj510
Right on outershell!
TKMJ-Thanks for bringing the thread back!

Allright, now.

I wondered if yall had heard of this story. Its not an exact paralell, its not about homosexuality in nature, but more about genetic rarieties that are related-did anyone hear about that doe in MN that was shot over last weekend? The hunter shot a buck, sure enough, but something was a bit different about this one:

MICHIGAN, N.D. -- When Carmen Erickson dropped a deer with a single shot in a cattail slough south of here, he thought he'd downed a nice buck. Unlike his shot, he was a little off. The deer was a doe.

"It's got no male utilities," said Erickson, who lives in Minot. "It has teats ... it was pretty unusual."

Six hunting partners with Erickson witnessed the doe with a 4-by-4 rack.

"I'm sure this story will be around for 10 years," he said. "At least in our group."

Erickson notified the state Game and Fish Department and received a voice mail from a biologist who said these types of deer often are bucks whose testicles haven't descended or for some reason are castrated. Erickson said that is not the case with his deer, however.

"We couldn't find any male genitals on the deer," he said.

"We turned it over, and I got a lot of heat over that. Like I was supposed to know," Erickson joked.

Gary Rankin, district game warden in Larimore, said he has seen a couple of antlered does over the years, but for a doe to have a well-developed rack is unusual.

It is not the first antlered doe to be reported in the region this year. A conservation officer for the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources reported seeing a 10-point antlered doe shot near Robbin, Minn., during that state's firearms deer season. DNR conservation officers in other parts of Minnesota also reported a handful of antlered does.

Erickson said the antlered doe is a first for his crew, which has been hunting together for 25 years.

"It definitely was a keeper, he said.

There is a BBC documentary out there about gay animals but I forget its name
OK let's see if I remember this correctly. Male holds "Y". Female holds "X" and "Y". Y+Y=female X+Y=male
I think that's correct.

Now what happens if in the female if her X and Y are combined during the making of the egg. DNA encoding is combined in theroy I would think. Or can a male have an "X" accidently passed from his mother somehow?

So many questions we don't have anwsers for.

If the theroy of my statement is infact true, any animal or human can be a two-spirit. To me it seem that there was a change in the genetic encoding. Why? Who knows for sure. It just happens.

It's been a very long time since my college days. Trying to remember this stuff is a pain in the butt. I've never needed to use it before. This stuff is 30 years packed in the moth balls of my brain. I hope it didn't get scattered too badly for everyone to understand.


something just hit me on this topic so I am adding this.

If Y+Y=female and X+Y=male Could it be that X+X=two-spirit? Just a thought.
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Old 11-30-2006, 10:17 PM   #62
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Old 11-30-2006, 10:30 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsuj510
Pretty much, that is correct (its actually, xx=women, xy=men, but who is counting)...some of the time. However, it is possible to have chromosomes that are not fully developed, for example, a "Y" chromosome with a bit of a tail on it-in that case, the individual is intersexed, which is not the same as homosexuality, but I digress. Our sex is actually assigned by Dad. His sperm carry the genetic coding that his heirs will show, and its really a crap shoot as to how it'll work out. Some guys are just destined to have all boys, like my grandpa-8 boys and others vice versa..

Now that being said, the ADA has said that about 40% of your average Joe and Jane Q. Publics do not have the "correct chromosomes" as we are taught in sex ed. There are many variations and although these folks may be as straight as a rail in life, according to their genes, something else may be going on..

Although some mysteries in genetics have been solved, you are right-there are many, many left out there.

I just know this stuff becuase I live in SF and its good to know, with the community and all.
I guess I gotta catch up on a few changes because of new discoveries in the science. 30 years is a long time. I must have forgotten it or was taught the old school ways back then. The best I can remember is I needed a science credit and this class was opened. So I took it.
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Old 12-01-2006, 06:39 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsuj510
Pretty much, that is correct (its actually, xx=women, xy=men, but who is counting)...some of the time. However, it is possible to have chromosomes that are not fully developed, for example, a "Y" chromosome with a bit of a tail on it-in that case, the individual is intersexed, which is not the same as homosexuality, but I digress. Our sex is actually assigned by Dad. His sperm carry the genetic coding that his heirs will show, and its really a crap shoot as to how it'll work out. Some guys are just destined to have all boys, like my grandpa-8 boys and others vice versa..

Now that being said, the ADA has said that about 40% of your average Joe and Jane Q. Publics do not have the "correct chromosomes" as we are taught in sex ed. There are many variations and although these folks may be as straight as a rail in life, according to their genes, something else may be going on..

Although some mysteries in genetics have been solved, you are right-there are many, many left out there.

I just know this stuff becuase I live in SF and its good to know, with the community and all.
There is also the phenomenon of chimerism... where it is possible to be both male and female (to varying degrees) through a process that involves what happens to the egg(s) during fertilization but before attachement in the utereus.

The egg, as it descends, splits and is fertilized by two separate sperm. In ordinary cases this would result in fraternal twins. In some cases though, the egg remerges resulting in one person with the genetic material of two people. Happens once out of every 100,000 live births according to the number crunchers, at least that was the number that was available when I was getting my ed ju ma cay shun in the early 90's.

In 1/2 of these occurences (statistically speaking) both eggs are the same sex. These can be identified by some unique physical anamolies (most of which are documented in the medical literature where blood typing and tissue typing are involved).

The other 1/2 of the time you get an xy and an xx egg recombination. The expression of this can range from endocrine anamolies to blending of physical structures (primary sex characteristics). The milder forms will test as "gender indeterminant"; the more severe forms range towards hermphrodism. To put it simply - the more scrambled up the two eggs were when they recombined the milder the expression (also called mosiac chimerism). The less scrambled results in the more severe case (unilateral or bilateral chimerism).

Again nothing to do directly with sexuality but it shows the range of what is considered male or female at the genetic level.
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Old 12-01-2006, 10:54 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by between2worlds
There is also the phenomenon of chimerism... where it is possible to be both male and female (to varying degrees) through a process that involves what happens to the egg(s) during fertilization but before attachement in the utereus.

The egg, as it descends, splits and is fertilized by two separate sperm. In ordinary cases this would result in fraternal twins. In some cases though, the egg remerges resulting in one person with the genetic material of two people. Happens once out of every 100,000 live births according to the number crunchers, at least that was the number that was available when I was getting my ed ju ma cay shun in the early 90's.

In 1/2 of these occurences (statistically speaking) both eggs are the same sex. These can be identified by some unique physical anamolies (most of which are documented in the medical literature where blood typing and tissue typing are involved).

The other 1/2 of the time you get an xy and an xx egg recombination. The expression of this can range from endocrine anamolies to blending of physical structures (primary sex characteristics). The milder forms will test as "gender indeterminant"; the more severe forms range towards hermphrodism. To put it simply - the more scrambled up the two eggs were when they recombined the milder the expression (also called mosiac chimerism). The less scrambled results in the more severe case (unilateral or bilateral chimerism).

Again nothing to do directly with sexuality but it shows the range of what is considered male or female at the genetic level.
Thanks for all this info on genetics, etc. It is fascinating! (To me anyway).
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:29 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by DaCotau
Thanks for all this info on genetics, etc. It is fascinating! (To me anyway).
Me too! I'm glad I tuned into this thread when I did.
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Old 12-01-2006, 04:17 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by between2worlds
There is also the phenomenon of chimerism... where it is possible to be both male and female (to varying degrees) through a process that involves what happens to the egg(s) during fertilization but before attachement in the utereus.

The egg, as it descends, splits and is fertilized by two separate sperm. In ordinary cases this would result in fraternal twins. In some cases though, the egg remerges resulting in one person with the genetic material of two people. Happens once out of every 100,000 live births according to the number crunchers, at least that was the number that was available when I was getting my ed ju ma cay shun in the early 90's.

In 1/2 of these occurences (statistically speaking) both eggs are the same sex. These can be identified by some unique physical anamolies (most of which are documented in the medical literature where blood typing and tissue typing are involved).

The other 1/2 of the time you get an xy and an xx egg recombination. The expression of this can range from endocrine anamolies to blending of physical structures (primary sex characteristics). The milder forms will test as "gender indeterminant"; the more severe forms range towards hermphrodism. To put it simply - the more scrambled up the two eggs were when they recombined the milder the expression (also called mosiac chimerism). The less scrambled results in the more severe case (unilateral or bilateral chimerism).

Again nothing to do directly with sexuality but it shows the range of what is considered male or female at the genetic level.

With the odds of 1 out of 100,000, I would say that the odds of winning a million in the lottery are much higher. So then 1 out of 50,000 could be a two-spirit. That sounds like a natural occurance to me. Therefor a two-spirit is NOT a freak of nature but rather the exception to the rule. Kinda special, Don't ya think?
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Old 12-01-2006, 04:43 PM   #68
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Another thing to consider...

I just want to throw it out there that what two-spirit people remind us is that what we are physically, male female or something in between is just the physical part of us. Our genders are something totally separate. Those of us whose sex and gender match are fortunate – no one questions your right to exist. So, simply put gender identity is in part a function of cultural norms. Think about it. A lot of the ideas we have about what a woman or man is supposed to be like are culturally based and not based on physical possibility or spiritual possibility for that matter. Women in western culture are supposed to be smaller and weaker and not as good at math. And we all know that is just not the case. We all know women who are bigger, faster and smarter than some other men that we know (not all men, not all women). So the existence of some individuals proves that this cultural assumption is dead wrong. And these individuals go through hell because their existence is proof of a lie.
Creator doesn’t make mistakes. Gays, Lesbians and bi-sexuals are a natural part of the human family. And yes, homosexuality does occur in nature, among other animals, as some of you have mentioned. We are all here for a reason. We all deserve to be loved and appreciated for the gifts we have. And all of our gifts are needed to make our communities strong and allow our communities to function properly.
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Old 12-01-2006, 05:40 PM   #69
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All of you are so very right and educated about this matter. Thanks for the info.
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Old 12-03-2006, 11:11 AM   #70
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I also read that there was a study done on gay men awhile back, and it was discovered that gay men have more estrogen in their body than the average 'straight' male. (All men have some estrogen), thus making them 'more feminite' or gay. As far as I know, there isn't a study on gay women that confirms that they have more of the male sex hormone than usual, although it makes plenty sense. I may try to find the link to that article.
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Old 12-03-2006, 12:15 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRANDSON OF ZEELA
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If God had intended for 2 males or females to be togather, then why can't 2 ladies become one and produce a child?

And why can't 2 men become one and produce a child?

It's not natural ........
It's not my intention to keep picking on the poster, but I've been giving this more thought.
This is my opinion based on my observations and experiences.
You’re welcome to prove to or disprove it.

There have been androgynous and/or homosexual people through out time in Native American tribes. Their “purpose” was usually the role of the Beardache. A Beardache as I understand it is Shaman- like role that had some mix of spiritual, seeing, healing, counseling and arts & entertainment skills. Skills that deal with the QUALITY of life instead of QUANTITY. Now to be a good healer, artist or seer requires a lot of time, focus and energy. And as anyone knows if you are raising children and caring for a family it takes most of your time, focus and energy just to do that.

Outside of Native American culture, some of the greatest contributions to the quality of life have come from LGBT people. The great artists, philosophers, musicians, architects and so forth have usually been homosexuals. Not all of course but a very high percentage. So again they don’t have babies but The Creator gave them another purpose that benefited entire generations.

Going back to nature any animals that survive in groups (herds) and have a strong social order usually have a percentage of “gay” animals. Animals that mate with the same sex. Now is it possible that there are gay-Shaman- monkeys or flamingoes? Well, probably not in any way that we could understand… I’m not an animal behavior scientist, but it would be in interesting experiment to see if these gay animals contribute to the quality of the herds’ life; maybe as a scout or as look-out or something.

Is the quantity more important than the quality of life? Only to a certain extent. Take away all your art, decoration, rituals, philosophy, spiritual guidance, music, dance and sports, and see how well it goes.
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Old 12-03-2006, 02:23 PM   #72
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Old 12-03-2006, 02:34 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outershell
It's not my intention to keep picking on the poster, but I've been giving this more thought.
This is my opinion based on my observations and experiences.
You’re welcome to prove to or disprove it.

There have been androgynous and/or homosexual people through out time in Native American tribes. Their “purpose” was usually the role of the Beardache. A Beardache as I understand it is Shaman- like role that had some mix of spiritual, seeing, healing, counseling and arts & entertainment skills. Skills that deal with the QUALITY of life instead of QUANTITY. Now to be a good healer, artist or seer requires a lot of time, focus and energy. And as anyone knows if you are raising children and caring for a family it takes most of your time, focus and energy just to do that.

Outside of Native American culture, some of the greatest contributions to the quality of life have come from LGBT people. The great artists, philosophers, musicians, architects and so forth have usually been homosexuals. Not all of course but a very high percentage. So again they don’t have babies but The Creator gave them another purpose that benefited entire generations.

Going back to nature any animals that survive in groups (herds) and have a strong social order usually have a percentage of “gay” animals. Animals that mate with the same sex. Now is it possible that there are gay-Shaman- monkeys or flamingoes? Well, probably not in any way that we could understand… I’m not an animal behavior scientist, but it would be in interesting experiment to see if these gay animals contribute to the quality of the herds’ life; maybe as a scout or as look-out or something.

Is the quantity more important than the quality of life? Only to a certain extent. Take away all your art, decoration, rituals, philosophy, spiritual guidance, music, dance and sports, and see how well it goes.
I don't know about any of that, personally.

I have heard of geldings fostering orphaned foals... That's about the extent of that in my experience.
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Old 12-03-2006, 02:46 PM   #74
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its not possible to have more than one *spirit*

in navajo we have these people who think they know the truth. but its just their own sad pathetic twisted version.

if yer a gay navajo dude spreading this bs, quit it. explaining this and that to resemble the truth proves your not. show me you have more insight or whatever it is you think you got over us. i never met or seen this thing you speak of.
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Old 12-03-2006, 09:49 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by injunboy
its not possible to have more than one *spirit*

in navajo we have these people who think they know the truth. but its just their own sad pathetic twisted version.

if yer a gay navajo dude spreading this bs, quit it. explaining this and that to resemble the truth proves your not. show me you have more insight or whatever it is you think you got over us. i never met or seen this thing you speak of.
Depends on your Nation man. Some ndn Nations believe that everyone has more then one spirit. I noticed your also Ojibway. Have you looked into what your Ojibway ppl believe on this subjuct?

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Old 12-03-2006, 10:09 PM   #76
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I also read that there was a study done on gay men awhile back, and it was discovered that gay men have more estrogen in their body than the average 'straight' male. (All men have some estrogen), thus making them 'more feminite' or gay. As far as I know, there isn't a study on gay women that confirms that they have more of the male sex hormone than usual, although it makes plenty sense. I may try to find the link to that article.
I have actually read research that states the opposite. That there is absolutely no connection between male homosexuality and how high, or how low, a man's level of testosterone is. Besides, I have met several gay men that were very "manly" so to speak, you would never guess that they were gay without them telling you. Not all gay men are effeminate, just like not all lesbian women are "butch".
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Old 12-03-2006, 11:01 PM   #77
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And I remember an informal study on NPR a couple years back that suggested that gay males have higher testosterone levels than straight males. Who knows?
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Old 12-04-2006, 01:22 AM   #78
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Old 12-04-2006, 08:06 AM   #79
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A personal observation

I gotta give you guys (people) a lot of credit here. What we are talking about is a very serious subject. It is also a subject that no one is really willing to talk about because it seems to frighten people. The subject has always been 'Hush Hush".

The research and personal encounters that are being discussed here are very relitive to todays society. Everyone here has brought something to this thread that has merit. Thankyou!

Some of my personal observations and encounters with the two-spirit population seem to go hand in hand with a lot of the research going on with estrogen and tsestosterone levels in the body. People who have higher levels of estrogen seem to be more detail oriented concerning the finer things like art, music, languages, cooking, and such. While people who have a higher level of testosterone have a better skill level in such things as mathmatics, mechanics, and the sciences. And yes there is that problem of unwanted hair growth in the wrong places.

We have always looked at the idea of males and females because that is how we were taught. Males having more testosterone and females having more estrogen.

If we strip away the male and female roll that society has taught us, we are just left with people. Each person has "HIS or HER" talents. See what I mean about society teaching us gender and rolls? The "HIS or HER" part. I can't even find the proper words to say what I want to say without refering to gender.

Should we be looking at three genders of people instead of two? Is that the way things really are and society refuses to accept the people in the middle?
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Old 12-04-2006, 08:12 AM   #80
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Research has shown that the shape, or maybe it was the length of the hypothalumus, that has a part in this too. Maybe BTW knows more about this; he seems to be very well read on the medical end of things. Basically the theory goes that there are differences in men in women who are straight when compared to those who are gay or transgendered or intersexed, insofar as this part of the brain is concerned.

Every Nation has a different take on this topic and there are always those who espouse "tribal wisdom" when they are talking out the side of thir necks. It's not any one Nation or race for that matter, you know, there are always folks who talk a line of BS. But then there is the real stuff, the real traditions and on the flip side, undisputable medical research. Those are two very different subjects.
There was a study done in Germany on the relative sizes of the hypothalmus in male-bodied transgendereds (using data obtained through autopsy) but the results of the study are problematic in applying to the population in general because the study population was small and there was no control to check for effects that might have occurred from hormone therapy (estrogen, the length of time the person was using hormone therapy, the age therapy was started etc.).
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