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Old 01-21-2007, 03:15 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by anishinabealltheway View Post
Has anyone heard of that zoo that received all the gay penguins? The zookeepers were all upset because they wouldn't reproduce. Those little rascals.
in NYC, the penguins where sitting on a rock like a egg the zookeepers then put a fertile egg and the couple raised the chick that hatched.It ended up normal like the rest of the chicks
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Old 01-22-2007, 05:23 AM   #122
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no problem 2line!! hugs 4 all!!

i like the comment about the tree an earthworm... i missed that some how!

some people are born with the both sex organs but from what i hear they are sterile? i wander if that is a state of evolution or if that is the way we used to reproduce? kinda makes you wander.....
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Old 01-22-2007, 12:10 PM   #123
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no problem 2line!! hugs 4 all!!

i like the comment about the tree an earthworm... i missed that some how!

some people are born with the both sex organs but from what i hear they are sterile? i wander if that is a state of evolution or if that is the way we used to reproduce? kinda makes you wander.....
Yup - there are all kinds of mixed up primary (sex organs) and secondary (breasts, adams apples, etc) sex characteristics that people can be born with/develop. That's what happens to people who are born as chimeras (see my earlier -very- basic explanation in this thread). Science has pretty much determined how such things happen but not why nor why some are more "blended" than others.

Chimeras range from fully involved (having both sets of organs) to bilateral (one sex on one side, one on the other side of the body) to mosiac (xx and xy found in adjacent cells all over the body).

The Creator has a reason for such, I believe. What that reason is - well only the Creator knows.
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Old 03-27-2007, 06:25 PM   #124
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BBC link...homosexuality in nature

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Right on outershell!
TKMJ-Thanks for bringing the thread back!

Allright, now.


There is a BBC documentary out there about gay animals but I forget its name
I haven't made it all the way thru reading the thread yet, so if someone has already posted this, I apologize. This is the link to the BBC article. It's pretty interesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6066606.stm

Raven
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Old 04-17-2007, 02:45 PM   #125
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Two Spirit Men and Strong Hearted Women

wow..... I enjoyed reading this thread very very much. Obviously, it's a subject that needs airing (after reading through nine pages of posts!). Here is what I know on the subject. Some is what I've been taught and some is my own reasoning (I'll try and differentiate the two when necessary). That being said, PLEASE no one take offense or think I'm speaking for other Nations as an expert. I also apologize for speaking in front of many of you who are my elders and some of whom I know and respect their opinion. I'm only passing along what people from these Nations have told me themselves.

OK! I happen to know quite a few two-spirits, winkte, nadle, strong hearts, gay Natives, etc. True, each tribe had their own views on what exactly was what. Many Dine people tell me they do not like this term "two-spirit", because it has a negative meaning when literally translated into their language. They use the term nadle. As for how they are treated, I know a few families that follow their Beauty Way traditions and their elders consider the nadle to be special and lucky. I know one old man who never went to the casino without his nadle grandson because he felt like having him with him helped him win!!!

I, myself, am two-spirited according to some definitions and only gay according to others. Unfortunately, ethnographers recorded little of the gay roles of the eastern tribes, and by the time anyone thought to ask, most of these cultures' way of life had been affected by Missionaries. My own tribe havinging their first contact in 1540, it would have been impossible that european influences hadn't found their way into our social behaviors. That being said, I know some stomp grounds here in Oklahoma that don't have a problem with it, some do, and some prefer it to be something not discussed. The majority of information existing about traditional roles of two-spirits lies in the plains tribes; either those whose communities still have a traditional role for them or from written accounts prior to the reservation period. My partner is Crow, and was raised in his Bide' (sorry if I spelled it wrong) ways. From what his family tells me, these people are very special to them and fullfill medicine and social roles in the tribe. I know my partner has rights to own tipi, which is a female thing, but also holds male rights as well. In the Lakota way, what I've been told is that the winkte were care givers, artisans, and counselors, as well as medicine carriers. I know a Lakota man living here in Oklahoma who has specifically asked for a winkte to bead parts of his son's and daughter's outfits because he was taught that owning things made by winkte is a blessing and has medicine in it.

This is what I've been told and what I know on this subject. I normally try and stay out of things I don't consider my business and I apologize if this information is not what this thread was intended for, but that's how I interpreted the first post I read, was that this person was wanting to know how it was viewed from a Native perspective. This issue is very complex and difficult to talk about, even among the Gay Native population, due to issues of semantics, cultural differences etc. but I hope that what I've written here will help. Please, if any of you reading this ever get the chance to really talk to a gay native person, please offer them something and ask to hear about their experiences. I think you would be surprised at the stories you hear.

Thank you for listening to this.
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Old 04-17-2007, 03:37 PM   #126
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Old 04-17-2007, 07:28 PM   #127
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Wow, this turned out to be a really good tread!! I thought it was dead b/c nobody had posted on it in a while. Well, I must confess you guys, since I am the starter of this tread....I am also a lesbian. Now I didn't say that before b/c I didn't want ppl to think I was throwing it in people's face by saying that right off the bat-like some folks think gay people do. For the most part, I'm out and I'm not ashamed of who I am. I just don't go out broadcasting it to everybody. It's not everyone else's business. I do have three boys and alot of folks are thrown off by that (like just b/c I'm gay doesn't mean I don't have a uterus and can't use it!!). I didn't accept myself till about the year 2002, by then I was twenty-four. I actually knew in like the seventh grade, but because of society and fear of what would happen to me at school (I was already not a popular kid). I 'played straight' for many years thinking those feelings would just go away. That and the fear stopped me from being me. It took me all this time to realize all that crap doesn't matter. I love myself now and as I think about it, happier with myself. I'll be glad when society gets over themselves and accept it better and stop making it a big deal-but if they don't it won't stop me.

As I said before in one of my post, I think I'm two-spirit too but because I haven't researched it as I should I won't claim it. Maybe you all can help me out with this. Now, I hope I don't sound stupid saying this...maybe I'm not explaining it right, but I'm not totally 'femme' or totally 'butch'. I feel I have both male and female characteristics. This is why I tell the girls....well anybody I feel I'm in between-no 100% of either. So for those that know more about the subject, what do you think?
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:32 PM   #128
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welcome

Welcome tribaltagz and thank you for your post. I must say that I too have been taught some of the things you mentioned here about the winkte and such. So, you are making sense and your contribution is valued here.
Hello Mixedindian! Good to see your post is alive again.
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Old 04-19-2007, 08:42 PM   #129
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Thank you YellowThunders-yes, let's keep the thread alive.....ok maybe I should stop now.

TribalTagz is right on a lot of things; I read some of those things too in a book from my school library. I forgot the author's name, I will look it up and post it here. Maybe somebody here would like to read up on it.
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Old 03-31-2008, 10:48 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tribaltagz View Post
wow..... I enjoyed reading this thread very very much. Obviously, it's a subject that needs airing (after reading through nine pages of posts!). Here is what I know on the subject. Some is what I've been taught and some is my own reasoning (I'll try and differentiate the two when necessary). That being said, PLEASE no one take offense or think I'm speaking for other Nations as an expert. I also apologize for speaking in front of many of you who are my elders and some of whom I know and respect their opinion. I'm only passing along what people from these Nations have told me themselves.

OK! I happen to know quite a few two-spirits, winkte, nadle, strong hearts, gay Natives, etc. True, each tribe had their own views on what exactly was what. Many Dine people tell me they do not like this term "two-spirit", because it has a negative meaning when literally translated into their language. They use the term nadle. As for how they are treated, I know a few families that follow their Beauty Way traditions and their elders consider the nadle to be special and lucky. I know one old man who never went to the casino without his nadle grandson because he felt like having him with him helped him win!!!

I, myself, am two-spirited according to some definitions and only gay according to others. Unfortunately, ethnographers recorded little of the gay roles of the eastern tribes, and by the time anyone thought to ask, most of these cultures' way of life had been affected by Missionaries. My own tribe havinging their first contact in 1540, it would have been impossible that european influences hadn't found their way into our social behaviors. That being said, I know some stomp grounds here in Oklahoma that don't have a problem with it, some do, and some prefer it to be something not discussed. The majority of information existing about traditional roles of two-spirits lies in the plains tribes; either those whose communities still have a traditional role for them or from written accounts prior to the reservation period. My partner is Crow, and was raised in his Bide' (sorry if I spelled it wrong) ways. From what his family tells me, these people are very special to them and fullfill medicine and social roles in the tribe. I know my partner has rights to own tipi, which is a female thing, but also holds male rights as well. In the Lakota way, what I've been told is that the winkte were care givers, artisans, and counselors, as well as medicine carriers. I know a Lakota man living here in Oklahoma who has specifically asked for a winkte to bead parts of his son's and daughter's outfits because he was taught that owning things made by winkte is a blessing and has medicine in it.

This is what I've been told and what I know on this subject. I normally try and stay out of things I don't consider my business and I apologize if this information is not what this thread was intended for, but that's how I interpreted the first post I read, was that this person was wanting to know how it was viewed from a Native perspective. This issue is very complex and difficult to talk about, even among the Gay Native population, due to issues of semantics, cultural differences etc. but I hope that what I've written here will help. Please, if any of you reading this ever get the chance to really talk to a gay native person, please offer them something and ask to hear about their experiences. I think you would be surprised at the stories you hear.

Thank you for listening to this.
thank you for posting. i love learning all i can... :)

how are you?
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In the spirit of Crazy Horse...

sometimes you have to live life as if what everyone else thinks does not matter, but is still a factor...
that even though you think you are so lost, you may be found...
no matter what comes in your life, it will be over come...
and that the real reason that you live is for love, and finding inner peace...
live free for what its worth an never let life hold you back from living
One person can make a difference----lets all of us give it a try.--- john f. Kennedy

other places u can find me...

]htt://www.myspace.com/hawkredfeather630
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Old 03-31-2008, 10:50 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixedIndian View Post
Wow, this turned out to be a really good tread!! I thought it was dead b/c nobody had posted on it in a while. Well, I must confess you guys, since I am the starter of this tread....I am also a lesbian. Now I didn't say that before b/c I didn't want ppl to think I was throwing it in people's face by saying that right off the bat-like some folks think gay people do. For the most part, I'm out and I'm not ashamed of who I am. I just don't go out broadcasting it to everybody. It's not everyone else's business. I do have three boys and alot of folks are thrown off by that (like just b/c I'm gay doesn't mean I don't have a uterus and can't use it!!). I didn't accept myself till about the year 2002, by then I was twenty-four. I actually knew in like the seventh grade, but because of society and fear of what would happen to me at school (I was already not a popular kid). I 'played straight' for many years thinking those feelings would just go away. That and the fear stopped me from being me. It took me all this time to realize all that crap doesn't matter. I love myself now and as I think about it, happier with myself. I'll be glad when society gets over themselves and accept it better and stop making it a big deal-but if they don't it won't stop me.

As I said before in one of my post, I think I'm two-spirit too but because I haven't researched it as I should I won't claim it. Maybe you all can help me out with this. Now, I hope I don't sound stupid saying this...maybe I'm not explaining it right, but I'm not totally 'femme' or totally 'butch'. I feel I have both male and female characteristics. This is why I tell the girls....well anybody I feel I'm in between-no 100% of either. So for those that know more about the subject, what do you think?
thank you for coming out!! nothing to be ashamed of. if ppl cannot accept you for being who you are that isnt your problem its theres lol...
__________________
In the spirit of Crazy Horse...

sometimes you have to live life as if what everyone else thinks does not matter, but is still a factor...
that even though you think you are so lost, you may be found...
no matter what comes in your life, it will be over come...
and that the real reason that you live is for love, and finding inner peace...
live free for what its worth an never let life hold you back from living
One person can make a difference----lets all of us give it a try.--- john f. Kennedy

other places u can find me...

]htt://www.myspace.com/hawkredfeather630
www.facebook.com/redfeather630
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Old 04-01-2008, 02:07 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by MixedIndian View Post
As I said before in one of my post, I think I'm two-spirit too but because I haven't researched it as I should I won't claim it. Maybe you all can help me out with this. Now, I hope I don't sound stupid saying this...maybe I'm not explaining it right, but I'm not totally 'femme' or totally 'butch'. I feel I have both male and female characteristics. This is why I tell the girls....well anybody I feel I'm in between-no 100% of either. So for those that know more about the subject, what do you think?
Butch and Femme are only words used to describe behavior and way of dressing. They do not describe the heart or character of a person. Regardless of your physical attraction or the way you behave, you are still a woman my dear and will always feel as a woman regardless if that woman feels a bit butchy one day and a bit girlish the next.
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Old 04-02-2008, 12:30 PM   #133
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As I said before in one of my post, I think I'm two-spirit too but because I haven't researched it as I should I won't claim it. Maybe you all can help me out with this. Now, I hope I don't sound stupid saying this...maybe I'm not explaining it right, but I'm not totally 'femme' or totally 'butch'. I feel I have both male and female characteristics. This is why I tell the girls....well anybody I feel I'm in between-no 100% of either. So for those that know more about the subject, what do you think?

well, the nice thing is that you don't have to be butch or femme, the whole idea coming out and being yourself... is to truly be yourself.
there are other variations and categories with in the GLBT community and they are just labels. like any other area of life; don't feel you have to fit into a label or change yourself to fit someone else's expectations.

oh and congrats for coming out. ...
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Old 04-02-2008, 12:36 PM   #134
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I LOVE MY GAYS!! *insert rainbow*

i have always beaten the crap outta kids that teased my brother....if he wasnt such a big Biitch id still ahve to lol
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Old 04-02-2008, 12:52 PM   #135
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I LOVE MY GAYS!! *insert rainbow*

i have always beaten the crap outta kids that teased my brother....if he wasnt such a big Biitch id still ahve to lol
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Old 04-02-2008, 01:05 PM   #136
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ya see they were teachn gay pride even back then LOL:P
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Old 04-02-2008, 01:42 PM   #137
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OMG!!!! Don't even play with me, I loved Rainbow Brite!! I still have my old dolls!
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:32 AM   #138
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Talking two spirits

my understanding of two spitit is one of gender identity, not sexual orientation. two spirit equals transgender in my opinion.i know, im transgender. when i came out as it were ,the native side of my family accepted me as is.the white side of my family chose to shun me, they still do . this has a lot to do with why i chose to live on the indian side of the road,.i can easliy pass as white, i chose not to.people go where they are accepted.today i no longer have my fathers surname i have my mothers, legally .knowledge of the two spirit tradition helped me accept myself.to cease all self harm behaviors, and love myself.
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:35 AM   #139
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oh im loving the rainbow bright!1

used to watch that as a kiddo
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sometimes you have to live life as if what everyone else thinks does not matter, but is still a factor...
that even though you think you are so lost, you may be found...
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and that the real reason that you live is for love, and finding inner peace...
live free for what its worth an never let life hold you back from living
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Old 04-04-2008, 03:37 AM   #140
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my understanding of two spitit is one of gender identity, not sexual orientation. two spirit equals transgender in my opinion.i know, im transgender. when i came out as it were ,the native side of my family accepted me as is.the white side of my family chose to shun me, they still do . this has a lot to do with why i chose to live on the indian side of the road,.i can easliy pass as white, i chose not to.people go where they are accepted.today i no longer have my fathers surname i have my mothers, legally .knowledge of the two spirit tradition helped me accept myself.to cease all self harm behaviors, and love myself.
great! i like you too much for you to hurt you!

big hug! i like learning more bout this... two spirits tradion an so on
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In the spirit of Crazy Horse...

sometimes you have to live life as if what everyone else thinks does not matter, but is still a factor...
that even though you think you are so lost, you may be found...
no matter what comes in your life, it will be over come...
and that the real reason that you live is for love, and finding inner peace...
live free for what its worth an never let life hold you back from living
One person can make a difference----lets all of us give it a try.--- john f. Kennedy

other places u can find me...

]htt://www.myspace.com/hawkredfeather630
www.facebook.com/redfeather630
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