[RainbowSpiriDancer]

Originally Posted by Lakota Wiyan

I think most tribes have their own views of "gay/lesbian" people, but I can only tell you what I know about "our" Winkte. These were men who did women's work, and dressed and behaved like a woman. I know that a few of them would live together and keep house together, but as is EVERYONE's right, their sexual life was never NEVER EVER a topic of discussion. That was between them, if they wanted to, just like any heterosexual person. But, since these Winkte were more women than men, I don't image they would be intimate, like in a Homosexual way, but then again, who cares!!!!????!!! Gah, I can't believe I'm talking about this.....Got the indian blush going on now.....

I don't think that the European/Wasicu way of looking at people with different lifestyles can be directly applied to our cultures, regardless of what tribe you are from. Their was is very judgemental and full of fear. In my own tribe, men worry about men things, women worry about women things, and when they had to get together and worry about the tribe, I don't think that anyone's sexuality was a factor in who had a voice or rights, and who did not. The Winktes I know are extraordinarily gifted in beadwork, sewing, quillwork, or singing and dancing. They are also good horsemen (people??), and from my own experience, they make the best, the VERY best babysitters.....but oooooweeeee....the winktes I know sure can gossip....even more than ME!!

Great post! I agree with you 100%!

[Migiziwomen]

great thread, how did i miss it? still got some reading to do to catch up on what you all are saying.

when i worked in corrections, i worked with this subject a lot. you would be surprised how many did not know that this goes back to the beginning with our people. being two spirit is an honor, they are held with honor.


anyway, off to read some more, do not want to tread all over something that has already been said.

lol.

go gays!!

lmao

[ugidali]

I've heard about the Denver Two Spirit society as well.

I am not lesbian. But I do have friends that are gay. It is their choice. Not my place to judge.

[WhiteWolf89]

I'm probably going to get some stuff for this, but I'm a Two-Spirit.

[IlnuSoldier]

WhiteWolf - No no no... Just because your a Two-Spirit does not mean your going to get any free shyt. The "Two-Spirit Free TVs" and "Two-Spirit Grab Bag" specials ended last week..... Now, you get nothing for being Two Spirited.

[IlnuSoldier]

Gay guys don't bother me 'cause its less competition over the ladies.....

And gay gals don't bother me 'cause they only hook up with gay or bi-gals.... meaning that my target population is still safe.

No competition... no worries.

[TKMJ Productions]

Originally Posted by WhiteWolf89

I'm probably going to get some stuff for this, but I'm a Two-Spirit.

I think you should get some stuff for that statement. Why don't you head over to Walmart and get some of that stuff on sale.

I don't have a problem with anyone being a twospirit. I can respect that. This past summer I was burned (ripped off) by someone claiming to be a two spirit. I found out later that he was just a white queer posing as a head veteran that was kicked out of the U.S. Air Force during basic training. What was worse is that I called him a friend for many years.

[Stephan]

hi,

dont went through the whole thread so dont know if it was mentioned earlier. what i read and heard about two spirit people is, that westerners often misunderstand the term two spirited and put the term as synonym for gay or homosexual.

for instance the nadle of the dine nation:

the dine distinguish between sex and gender. so two men obviously in relation; the westerner would say they are gay but the dine distinguish between sex and gender. so one mens gender is male and his sex is also male. the gender of the other men is female but his sex is also male. the westerner has only the concept of sex so for him they are gay. from a dine viewpoint they are not gay because they have different gender. the dine as far as i know distinguish between 5 gender. the shoshone for example have four. dont know if its correct but.... little bit confusing but i hope i catched the point.

and there are other concepts beside homosexual. transgender (persons who feel like they are in the wrong body), hermaphrodite (persons who have biological both sexes) and travesty (simply persons who like to dress like the opposite sex)

so the term two spirit is a little bit uncomfortable because it subsumes many concepts under one term.

[Stephan]

hi,

dont went through the whole thread so dont know if it was mentioned earlier. what i read and heard about two spirit people is, that westerners often misunderstand the term two spirited and put the term as synonym for gay or homosexual.

for instance the nadle of the dine nation:

the dine distinguish between sex and gender. so to two men obviously in relation, the westerner would say they are gay but the dine distinguish between sex and gender. so one mens gender is male and his sex is also male. the gender of the other men is female but his sex is also male. the westerner has only the concept of sex so for him they are gay. from a dine viewpoint they are not gay because they have different gender. the dine i think distinguish between 5 gender. the shoshone for example have four. dont know if its correct but.... little bit confusing but i hope i catched the point.

and there are other concepts beside homosexual. transgender (persons who feel like they are in the wrong body), hermaphrodite (persons who have biological both sexes) and travesty (simply persons who like to dress like the opposite sex)

so the term two spirit is a little bit uncomfortable because it subsumes many concepts under one term.

[Stephan]

hi,

dont went through the whole thread so dont know if it was mentioned earlier. what i read and heard about two spirit people is, that westerners often misunderstand the term two spirited and put the term as synonym for gay or homosexual.

for instance the nadle of the dine nation:

the dine distinguish between sex and gender. so to two men obviously in relation, the westerner would say they are gay but the dine distinguish between sex and gender. so one mens gender is male and his sex is also male. the gender of the other men is female but his sex is also male. the westerner has only the concept of sex so for him they are gay. from a dine viewpoint they are not gay because they have different gender. the dine i think distinguish between 5 gender. the shoshone for example have four. dont know if its correct but.... little bit confusing but i hope i catched the point.

and there are other concepts beside homosexual. transgender (persons who feel like they are in the wrong body), hermaphrodite (persons who have biological both sexes) and travesty (simply persons who like to dress like the opposite sex)

so the term two spirit is a little bit uncomfortable because it subsumes many concepts under one term.

[RDNKJ]

I hope this isn't an inappropriate question, but I was wondering, where does the term "two spirit" come from?

[TKMJ Productions]

Originally Posted by RDNKJ

I hope this isn't an inappropriate question, but I was wondering, where does the term "two spirit" come from?

The person in question has the spirit of both sexes. Hence "Two spirit". It doesn't matter if you have male or female anotomy, Could have a mix too!

[RDNKJ]

Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions

The person in question has the spirit of both sexes. Hence "Two spirit". It doesn't matter if you have male or female anotomy, Could have a mix too!

Thank you! But I should have made myself clearer...I just meant linguisticaly. Since all the different nations have their own terms, I was just wondering if "two spirit" is a translation from a particular language.

[annie_griffin]

White Wolf,
How do you know you are a two-spirit? I hope that doesn't sound rude just curious.




annie

[WhiteWolf89]

Originally Posted by annie_griffin

White Wolf,
How do you know you are a two-spirit? I hope that doesn't sound rude just curious.

annie

I'm bisexual and I'm currently dating a guy. I also like girls and I've dated girls in the past.

[annie_griffin]

Well that's cool.

I like the phrase Two Spirits. I had never heard it before.

Annie

[TKMJ Productions]

Originally Posted by RDNKJ

Thank you! But I should have made myself clearer...I just meant linguisticaly. Since all the different nations have their own terms, I was just wondering if "two spirit" is a translation from a particular language.

I have no idea. The term has been around in english since I was a kid. Don't ask my age but I will tell you I'm older then dirt or my old rusted out 55 Chevy up on the rez. Which ever you choose.


I miss that car.

[BigChef]

Originally Posted by RDNKJ

I hope this isn't an inappropriate question, but I was wondering, where does the term "two spirit" come from?

It comes from early studies of possession. People who were posesed by a spirit were said to have two spirits. The word has stuck to even today. Some people get people with multiple personalitys mixed up and call them two spirit people, but they are really two mind people.

I dont know why every one here is talking about gay people and two spirit people. I read that gay people are borned that way, so please dont try to make the link of them being possesed. Its there nature so please, dont mock it by equating them with someone who needs an excersizeist.

Aho.

[TKMJ Productions]

Originally Posted by BigChef

It comes from early studies of possession. People who were posesed by a spirit were said to have two spirits. The word has stuck to even today. Some people get people with multiple personalitys mixed up and call them two spirit people, but they are really two mind people.

I dont know why every one here is talking about gay people and two spirit people. I read that gay people are borned that way, so please dont try to make the link of them being possesed. Its there nature so please, dont mock it by equating them with someone who needs an excersizeist.

Aho.

Just found this:

Two-Spirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Two-Spirit (also two spirit or twospirit) people, or berdache was a term created in 1990 in Winnipeg during the third annual inter-tribal Native American/First Nations gay and lesbian conference, to describe Native Americans who fulfill one of many mixed gender roles found traditionally among many Native Americans and Canadian First Nations indigenous groups. It is a direct translation from that of the Ojibwe title Niizh manidoowag. These roles included wearing the clothing and performing the work of both male and female genders. There are many indigenous terms for these individuals in the various Native American languages.

I guess this makes it official but the term was used long before this.

As far as why we are talking about it? This is also part of our culture. If we were to discard it, we would reduce ouselves to the way white people think. I'm not stooping that low as to think like a white man.

We do have a gay population in our society. If we swept them under the rug as the whites do, we would be no better then them.

[Joe's Dad]

Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions

Just found this:

Two-Spirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Two-Spirit (also two spirit or twospirit) people, or berdache was a term created in 1990 in Winnipeg during the third annual inter-tribal Native American/First Nations gay and lesbian conference, to describe Native Americans who fulfill one of many mixed gender roles found traditionally among many Native Americans and Canadian First Nations indigenous groups. It is a direct translation from that of the Ojibwe title Niizh manidoowag. These roles included wearing the clothing and performing the work of both male and female genders. There are many indigenous terms for these individuals in the various Native American languages.

I guess this makes it official but the term was used long before this.

As far as why we are talking about it? This is also part of our culture. If we were to discard it, we would reduce ouselves to the way white people think. I'm not stooping that low as to think like a white man.

We do have a gay population in our society. If we swept them under the rug as the whites do, we would be no better then them.

So, if I've read this right,,,and according to Wiki. 'Two-Spirit' means trans gender and not gay.

Sp now I wonder...will gay people who use the term 'Two-Spirit' to describe themselves, do so because of the romantic sounding term, stop using the term 'Two-Spirit' and go back to calling themselves gay?

Before I get bombarded, let me give you an example of what I mean:

A guy dresses like a man, works like like a man, drinks like a man, has a relationship with a man because he like men. Same scenario for a woman.

Is he 'Two-Spirit' or gay?