[annie_griffin]

I had a friend in school whose parents tried desperately to make her ungay.
I didn't know her during that time period but she was pretty mixed up by the experience.
Needless to say it didn't work. She is who she always was. A good person.

People are just people.

[TKMJ Productions]

Originally Posted by Joe's Dad

So, if I've read this right,,,and according to Wiki. 'Two-Spirit' means trans gender and not gay.

Sp now I wonder...will gay people who use the term 'Two-Spirit' to describe themselves, do so because of the romantic sounding term, stop using the term 'Two-Spirit' and go back to calling themselves gay?

Before I get bombarded, let me give you an example of what I mean:

A guy dresses like a man, works like like a man, drinks like a man, has a relationship with a man because he like men. Same scenario for a woman.

Is he 'Two-Spirit' or gay?

I guess it depends on how broad of a deffinition is used.

[TKMJ Productions]

Originally Posted by WhiteWolf89

I'm probably going to get some stuff for this, but I'm a Two-Spirit.

Get some stuff??????You want a prize or something?????

Sorry but you will just have to settle for our friendship here on the forum. Just like everyone else.

[BigChef]

Originally Posted by Joe's Dad

A guy dresses like a man, works like like a man, drinks like a man, has a relationship with a man because he like men. Same scenario for a woman.

Is he 'Two-Spirit' or gay?

One spirit, and Gay.

[annie_griffin]

Speaking of babysitting: has anyone noticed any threads on parenting.
Seeing as the whole Pow Wow thing seems pretty family oriented and all.





annie

[WhiteWolf89]

Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions

Get some stuff??????You want a prize or something?????

Sorry but you will just have to settle for our friendship here on the forum. Just like everyone else.

Well, I meant I thought I was going to get a lot of crap (not the feces) for being a Two-Spirit, but it seems like people here are pretty accepting of it.

[TKMJ Productions]

Originally Posted by WhiteWolf89

Well, I meant I thought I was going to get a lot of crap (not the feces) for being a Two-Spirit, but it seems like people here are pretty accepting of it.

We're First Nation people, not the white people out there that took our land. Everyone has a place in the community.

[RDNKJ]

Originally Posted by annie_griffin

I had a friend in school whose parents tried desperately to make her ungay.
I didn't know her during that time period but she was pretty mixed up by the experience.
Needless to say it didn't work. She is who she always was. A good person.

People are just people.

My best friend in junior high/high school was kicked out by his parents at age 15 for being gay. I always thought his parents should've been prosecuted by the state for child abandonment! Rest in Peace "RH".

[annie_griffin]

RDNKJ,
I am so sorry. I had a friend who was also kicked out of her home but it was for
interracial dating.
that is why kids need support from other community members.

She did ok though. She works with young people helping them overcome addictions.

[RDNKJ]

Originally Posted by WhiteWolf89

Well, I meant I thought I was going to get a lot of crap (not the feces) for being a Two-Spirit, but it seems like people here are pretty accepting of it.

I thought you meant you were expecting a toaster oven (like on the coming out episode of Ellen)!!! (jks)

[RDNKJ]

I'm a word/language-geek, so this is all very interesting to me...where words come from, how their meanings change over time, etc..

I've generally seen/heard "two spirit" used as a synonym for LGBT. Interesting to know that by some definitions a person can be "gay" but not "two spirit."

[TKMJ Productions]

Originally Posted by RDNKJ

I'm a word/language-geek, so this is all very interesting to me...where words come from, how their meanings change over time, etc..

I've generally seen/heard "two spirit" used as a synonym for LGBT. Interesting to know that by some definitions a person can be "gay" but not "two spirit."

Here is how I see it. A twospirit is someone who is transgender and/or gay. (I'll go broad here in the meaning)

If a twospirit or gay person flaunts and uses the issue to achieve a goal or attempt to suck sympathy, their just queers. Simple as that. I know a few who use the idea and yes, they are just queers. A few others I know are normal everyday people who are themselves (not queers).

I am a Two-Spirit, Here in Mi'kmaq Country, Most native Gay Lesbian, Bi, Trans peoples do not use the term Two-Spirited. Being Two-spirited is part of our precontact Mi'kmaq Religion, theres a silent taboo that Mi'kmaw GLBiTrans do not use that term unless the person has made a commitment to Native Spirituality, and to living a certain way, as there are arcane and protected Dances, Songs and Ceremonies exclusively for Two-Spirited Mi'kmaw, and Two-spirits were Ceremonial Leaders before contact. The last person i know of who was taught the Dance in my generation is Tuma Young from Eskasoni, as he wrote an extensive article in the Mi'kmaq Maliseet Newspaper on his journey. I myself was not given any Two-Spirited Teachings until i advanced on my path to the point i was attending Sweat-Lodges...

[RDNKJ]

Annie_Griffin - thank you. Good for your friend and her helping people with their addiction issues. Dealing with addicts can be a very thankless task.

TKMJ Productions - A reasonable and fairly common attitude.

I'm curious, though (and this is directed to anyone/everyone - not just TKMJ Productions) what you consider to be "flaunting it."

I ask, because I've found that a lot of people's definitions of "flaunting" are the same actions that they themselves take everyday. Here are three examples people have given me over the years as "gays flaunting it:"

1. Having a picture of their partner on their desk.
2. Wearing a "wedding" ring (when everyone knows you're not married).
3. Sitting next to, rather than across from, each other in a restaurant booth.

Flaunting? Or just going about your life like everyone else? What is the dividing line between "flaunting your homosexuality" and "acting like any straight couple"?

I'm not sure what you mean by "using the issue to achieve a goal" though.

Apukji'j - That's interesting. Since the term "two spirit" is not used outside of the context of Mi'kmaq religion - is there another "everyday" term that people use to mean GLBT? (There's that word-geek in me again!)

[annie_griffin]

I am not sure I understand the whole flaunt it thing. People are however they are.
No one goes up to say any of our animal,vegetable or mineral friends and says you know you might want to tone it down a bit.

"Hey Mountain you are too high, or tiger you got too many stripes or peacock you got too many brightly colored feathers."


just my thoughts for what they are worth.


Annie

hi, ya there is another term that seems to have been used for long time, Ji'numewesk, there are different variations of the word, but they mean the same thing, "He loves other men". this is the way i usually hear myself being referred too in Mi'kmaq. Two-Spirit as i said is usually not used, but i imagine there might be some young Mi'kmaw that have an affinity for it, but generally the older people use the term i just mentioned, and the very very few who have taken the Ceremonial Path prefer Two-Spirit. The Mi'kmaw Two-Spirited Class really went underground some say in the late 1800's, probably due to the priests influence, interestingly tho, most Mi'kmaw GBiTrans men leave the Rez when they turned adults, even today, for instance in Eskasoni where i live, the largest Mi'kmaq reserve, i was the only out man still living here for a long time, and this is of a community of 5000, now there are 3 of us who choose to stay, the rest always move away. where-as the Lesbians here always stayed, and even have been given houses, as often they have children early on before coming out
. i think the men leave because of homophobia, which runs rampant sometimes here, which is in stark contrast to the way we were revered before the priests came. in 30 years of research i cannot find one instance of "alternative gender" or "gender reversal" in traditional Mi'kmaq society, that wasn't our way, we were Spiritual Leaders instead. another interesting thing to note is that in all the groups and friends i have all over Mi'kmaq country i do not know of any Mi'kmaw man who is currently in relationship with another Mi'kmaw man, as far as i know they all have non-native partners...
now i must say i take exception to TKMJ's last post, it reminds me of my bigoted white friends who say its ok to call African descendants black but if they are from the ghetto or some other reason its ok to think of them or call them niggers, i suppose i should be glad hes not calling us fags....

[yellowthunders mama]

Thank you for your post apukji'j. The influence of the way Christianity has been interpreted by the Puritans has changed a lot for everyone - mostly misunderstanding. The Europeans, at first contact, could not conceive of a society where women and people who do not fit into their rigid sex roles have power and have such an important role in the fabric of an entire society. I hope you have opened some eyes and minds. The very way we think and interpret our own traditions has been changed by dualistic thinking forced on us through colonialism. And the fact that “Two-Spirit” ways went underground as well as Women’s ways went underground has changed everything on the surface of our traditions. I hope you inspire others to dig deep to find a part of themselves untouched by the priests.

Or not I guess...

[outershell]

Originally Posted by RDNKJ

I'm curious, though (and this is directed to anyone/everyone - not just TKMJ Productions) what you consider to be "flaunting it."

As a gay person i have found that when a straight person says "flaunting" they usually mean "existing".

And there's nothing I can do... I can walk down the street and be accused of "flaunting it". Its the complainer's problem that they are uncomfortable and they will have to learn to deal with it.

Outershell, i know that it seems sometimes theres nothing we can do, just calling him out on it and distancing our selves from it is about it, i aint getting into a dialogue with him about it; REMEMBER WE ARE NOT HERE TO HEAL/EDUCATE OUR OPPRESSORS!

[TKMJ Productions]

Originally Posted by apukji'j

now i must say i take exception to TKMJ's last post, it reminds me of my bigoted white friends who say its ok to call African descendants black but if they are from the ghetto or some other reason its ok to think of them or call them niggers, i suppose i should be glad hes not calling us fags....

I think you took my post out of context. I have no problem with gays or two spirits. The problem I have is when a gay or two spirit person pushes the idea to attempt to get their way. As in a "poor me" attatude or using the idea of being a two spirit as an excuse. That happens alot in the white world. I accept people for who and what they are. I don't care about race, religion, personal preferences or whatnot. As long as you can be upfront and honest, I don't have a problem. Don't play the games that many play. Be yourself.

Now about this "nigger" thing. Niggers come in all colors. It's a frame of mind and has nothing to do with race IMHO. Where did that come from anyway? It was like a slap coming out of left field and has nothing to do with the thread.

I also resent the idea that you would even think that I would call you a fag. But if you want me to, I can.

Now taking exception and taking my post out of context raises a question of two spirit or queer. Are we looking for an excuse? Think about it. Don't play the game. Be yourself.

I had a gay/ two spirit employee that worked for my powwow sound company for years. He was my best friend as well. He told me he was native and a vet. I accepted his word alone on both. He then started to take on head vet positions at powwows. Even advertised here on the forum. Didn't have a problem with that. Then later I found out that he was not native or a vet. He lied and played the game and me for a sucker so to speak. He used the idea of being a native and vet for acceptance. The reason I fired him is because he stold sound gear from the company and used it to make money on his own. He used the idea of being gay as an excuse when all he had to do was be up front and ask. I would have loaned him the sound gear to make a few extra dollars. So that gay became a queer.

Like I said, Be yourself and don't play games. That way I can respect you for who you are. Simple stuff to understand.

BTW, I have friends outside this forum that are gay and or two spirits. I accept them for who they are. No reason I should not accept any of you to be the same.