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Old 09-19-2006, 02:22 PM   #1
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United Keetoowah Band Of Cherokees

http://unitedkeetoowahband.org/Docum...49BaseRoll.pdf


I recently discovered this roll online and was casually scrolling down the list of names when I discovered my Grandmother and Grandfather listed and one of her brothers.
But None of her 6 sisters were listed???
So I searched the whole roll and found a few of my kinfolk but not the whole families just a few out of each one...

Is there anyone out there that knows more about this roll
What was the criteria???
And when was it taken???
It says 1949 but that is probably when it was finally done, these rolls usually took several years to do them...
Any info would be usefull

I am not looking to prove blood quatum just curousity
We are already registered members of the CNO
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Old 09-20-2006, 01:14 AM   #2
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maybe this will help explain some of the answers to your questions http://ukb-nsn.gov/Documents/History/Essay1.htm
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Old 09-20-2006, 01:52 AM   #3
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Were any of your ancestors "Old Settlers" or members of the Keetoowah Societies?
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Old 09-20-2006, 10:44 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msix04
maybe this will help explain some of the answers to your questions http://ukb-nsn.gov/Documents/History/Essay1.htm
Thank you for this
I have read this and in a broad sense it explained to me alot of things that had been talked about before
Part of my problem seems that they (Grandparents) passed on when i was very young so i never heard the stories or if they ever talked about this roll...
And what is really the main question is Why were only some of my kinfolk and not all enrolled on this one roll???
My Kinfolk seem to have no problem enrolling on other rolls
I found my greatgrandfather on several (Dawes and Miller Guinon) And his dad and grandfather.
So if i found out what was the criteria for enrolling on this roll it would help explain some things
I did notice the kinfolk that I did find on this roll were very vocal....
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Old 09-20-2006, 05:33 PM   #5
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this was a voluntary roll not compiled by the federal government most of the people on the keetoowah roll were traditional cherokee and/or full bloods the cno was under the control of the mixed bloods with non-traditional interests plus the fact that the keetoowahs were in oklahoma before the trail of tears
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Old 09-21-2006, 10:51 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msix04
this was a voluntary roll not compiled by the federal government most of the people on the keetoowah roll were traditional cherokee and/or full bloods the cno was under the control of the mixed bloods with non-traditional interests plus the fact that the keetoowahs were in oklahoma before the trail of tears
I have read the entire Keetoowah essay that was on their website and other documents that i could find...
I have basic knowledge about the Keetoowahs from reading several sources and the History of the Keetoowahs
But that is not what I am asking
I am wanting more information about the 1949 roll

My question is this...
What allowed them to be on this roll in the first place???
Anotherwords when they went to the people that were taking this roll and said I am Keetoowah they said ok sign here...
Or did they say ok can you prove it...
This is my question
What would they have used for proof
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Last edited by Josiah; 09-21-2006 at 10:53 AM..
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Old 09-21-2006, 11:57 AM   #7
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That goes to my question as to whether you are descended from Old Settlers (those who relocated to the AR/OK border area prior to the Trail of Tears) or a descendent of someone associated with the old Keetoowah societies.

The Keetoowahs are essentially descendents of the Old Settlers. There were two rolls taken the Emigratrion Roll in 1817 and the Old Settlers Roll of 1851. Only those who fall on these two rolls are considered Old Settlers and from there, the Keetoowah loosely based their members.
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Old 09-21-2006, 12:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
That goes to my question as to whether you are descended from Old Settlers (those who relocated to the AR/OK border area prior to the Trail of Tears) or a descendent of someone associated with the old Keetoowah societies.

The Keetoowahs are essentially descendents of the Old Settlers. There were two rolls taken the Emigratrion Roll in 1817 and the Old Settlers Roll of 1851. Only those who fall on these two rolls are considered Old Settlers and from there, the Keetoowah loosely based their members.
Thank you for confirming what I had found out...
I had read that before but thought there may be some other roll that came later than the 1851 roll.
I am working on finding out the names of descendents from that time period...
It is a slow process and like I said before I am doing this out of curiosity...
Most just stop at the Dawes rolls and that is it.
But I am trying to go way further than that and finding my Grandparents on this roll has opened up alot of questions for me...
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Old 09-21-2006, 04:19 PM   #9
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Well, there are other Western Cherokee Rolls prior to the Dawes. One off the top of my head was the Drennen Roll. I'm thinking there was pretty much a roll done every ten years or maybe every "generation" since the Removal.
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Old 09-21-2006, 09:58 PM   #10
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in 1946 the bia recognized that the keetoowahs were the decendants of the original cherokee nation and required that a base roll be compiled and all the people that were known to be keetoowah were placed on this roll and in 1949 it became the roll that was accepted by the bia, so to answer your question some people could have just walked up and said im keetoowah and their name was placed on the list but most if not all were members of the keetoowah society, i hope this helps you
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Old 09-22-2006, 11:22 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
Well, there are other Western Cherokee Rolls prior to the Dawes. One off the top of my head was the Drennen Roll. I'm thinking there was pretty much a roll done every ten years or maybe every "generation" since the Removal.
I am aware of all the other rolls, what I was saying is most just stop at the Dawes rolls when they find someone with a roll number.I have been doing research going much further back and had a question about the 1949 roll.

Alot of these rolls are now being digitizied which has made this kind of research much easier to do...
Here are the ones I have found, some are online and others you have to write to get the specific page but you must know all the names and ages for who you are looking for:

1898-1914 Dawes Roll of Western Cherokee
Enrollment (Census) Cards of the Five Civilized Tribes. The information given for each applicant includes name, roll number (individual's number if enrolled), age, sex, degree of Indian blood, relationship to the head of the family group, parents' names, and references to enrollment on earlier rolls used by the commission for verification of eligibility. The card often includes references to kin-related enrollment cards and notations about births, deaths, changes in marital status, and actions taken by the commission and the Secretary of the Interior. [The final roll of the western Cherokee. The roll ended the Cherokee Nation and allotted the land to the roll signers. This roll is the basis for tribal membership in the Cherokee Nation.

1906-1909 Guion Miller: Eastern and Western Cherokee
In 1906, the U.S. Government appointed Guion Miller to compile a roll of Eastern and Western Cherokees eligible for compensation (more than $1 million) from the government for lands taken in the 1830s. Applicants had to document their lineage back to an Eastern Cherokee living in the 1830s and prove that they had not affiliated with any other tribe. Over 45,000 applications that document about 90,000 Cherokees living about 1910 are in Eastern Cherokee Applications, 1906-1909.
Guion Miller used the Chapman rolls (which had referenced the Siler Rolls) in determining who was eligible to be admitted to the Miller Roll (1909). He made notes on the Chapman rolls signifying the Miller Application number of descendants of particular families. These notations are listed beside the individual's name and enclosed in brackets [ ] . He also used the Old Settlers roll of 1851, the 1851 Drennon roll, and the Hester roll of 1884.
The applications required each claimant to state full English and Indian names, residence, age, place of birth, name of husband or wife, name of tribe, and names of children. It also required information on the claimant's parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, uncles, and aunts. The index to the applications is arranged alphabetically by name (either English or Indian) of claimant. While numerous individuals applied, not all the claims were allowed. ( Index on FHL film# 378594 )

1924-1931 Baker Roll of Eastern Cherokee
The final roll of the Eastern Band of the Cherokee in anticipation of allotment. The land was not allotted and the reservation still exists. The roll contains the name, birth date, Eastern Cherokee Blood quantum and roll number of the base enrollees.
The Baker Roll Revised is the currant membership Roll of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians in North Carolina.

1895 Old Settlers Roll
This payment roll was based on the 1851 Old Settler Roll and lists
each payee's 1851 roll number, name, age, sex, and post office address.

1893 Cherokee Census
Includes Delawares, Shawnees, and Freedmen

1890 Cherokee Payroll

1887-1889 Lists of Persons Rejected for Cherokee Citizenship

1886 Cherokee Census
Authorized by an Act of the Cherokee National Council

1884 Hester Roll and Index of Eastern Cherokee
Joseph G. Hester prepared this roll of the Eastern Band of Cherokee in 1883. Copies of the previous census were made available to Hester and he was required to account for all persons on the previous rolls by either including them on the new roll, noting their deaths on the old rolls or describing their whereabouts as unknown either to Mr. Hester or any of the Native Americans. This roll lists 2,956 persons residing in North Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, Virginia, Illinois, Kansas, Colorado, Kentucky, New Jersey, and California. Those living west of the Mississippi and listed by Mr. Hester were descendants of members of the Eastern Band and had no affiliation with the Cherokee Nation in the west. Information includes ancestors, Chapman Roll Number, age, English name, and Indian name.

1883 Cherokee Census
Authorized by an Act of the Cherokee National Council

1880 Lipe Payment Roll

1869 Swetland Roll of Eastern Cherokee
Recorded the Eastern Cherokees, and their descendants, who were listed on the 1848 Mullay Roll as residing in North Carolina. S.H. Swetland prepared this roll pursuant to an 1868 act of Congress for a removal payment authorization

1867 Tompkins Roll of Cherokee

1867 Powell Roll of Cherokee

1867 Cherokee Delaware Census

1852 Drennen Roll of "Emigrant" Cherokee
Prepared by John Drennen as the first listing of the Cherokee who were
forced to emigrate to the Oklahoma Indian Territories in 1839 on the "Trail of Tears".

1851 Chapman Roll of Eastern Cherokee
Recorded the Eastern Cherokee who actually received the government payment based on the Siler 1851 Eastern Census. This roll, prepared by Albert Chapman, followed almost immediately after the Siler Roll and was a result of many the complaints by various Cherokees of having been omitted by Siler. Guion Miller used the Chapman rolls in determining who was eligible to be admitted to the Roll of 1909. He made notes on the Chapman rolls signifying the 1909 Miller Application number of descendants of particular families. These notations are listed beside the individual's name and enclosed in brackets [ ] .

1851 Siler Rolls of Eastern Cherokee
A census of the Cherokee Nation in North Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama, Washington DC, and Georgia entitled to per capita payment. Siler added interesting family information on many of the enrollees - who was married to whom, who a child belonged to, full-blood, mixed, or white married to Cherokee. If there is no race noted beside the name, the person was Indian. If a White man or woman was married to a Cherokee prior to the Treaty of 1835 they are listed with their family. If they were married afterwards, the husbands were usually noted as heads of the household, while women's names were not noted and the children's names had lines drawn through them at a later date. Includes later applicants and those rejected.

1851 Old Settlers Roll of Western Cherokee
Recorded those Cherokee (still living) who had emigrated to the Oklahoma Indian Territories before the 1839
"Trail of Tears". Arranged by tribal town and family groups. Guion Miller used this roll in compiling the 1910 record.

1848 Mullay Roll of North Carolina Cherokee
A listing of 1,517 Cherokees who remained in North Carolina after the removal of 1839. The purpose of the roll was not to enumerate all Cherokee in North Carolina, but only those who were eligible for certain payments. The "Indian Appropriations Act of 1848" stipulated that those Cherokee who had been living in North Carolina when the "Treaty of New Echota" had been ratified, and who had not removed West or received money for such a move, were entitled to $53.33 each for any future emigration to the Cherokee Nation. John C. Mullay was appointed to take the Cherokee Census and received detailed instructions to NOT include on the census any Indian born after May 23, 1836 ( when the "Treaty of New Echota" was ratified ), nor any white who had intermarried with a Cherokee

1835 Index to the Henderson Roll of Eastern Cherokee
According to the Treaty New Echota of December 29, 1835, the Cherokees surrendered all their lands east of the Mississippi River in exchange for $5 million, some funds for moving, and land in the Oklahoma Indian Territory. The Henderson Roll is the first listing of the of 16,000 Cherokees living in Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, and North Carolina who were to be removed to the Indian Territory on what would later be called the "Trail of Tears". Lists head of household; number of Indians listed as fullbloods, halfbreeds, quarterbloods; whites; occupations; number of slaves; number of descendants of reservees; whether they read English or Cherokee; ownership of homes, farms, mills, etc.

1817-1838 Eastern Cherokee Emigration Rolls and Muster Rolls
Recorded the Cherokee who chose to "emigrate" to the Arkansas Indian Territory according to the Treaty of July 8, 1817. In 1828, the Cherokees ceded their Arkansas lands for land in Oklahoma. Usually only heads of families are listed, but often there is some information about other members. Some rolls are indexed

1817-19 Eastern Cherokee Reservation Rolls
A register of the Cherokees who chose to accept a 640 acre reservation in the east according to the Treaty of July 8, 1817. This land was to revert to the state upon their death or abandonment of the property.
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Last edited by Josiah; 09-22-2006 at 11:30 AM..
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Old 09-22-2006, 11:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msix04
in 1946 the bia recognized that the keetoowahs were the decendants of the original cherokee nation and required that a base roll be compiled and all the people that were known to be keetoowah were placed on this roll and in 1949 it became the roll that was accepted by the bia, so to answer your question some people could have just walked up and said im keetoowah and their name was placed on the list but most if not all were members of the keetoowah society, i hope this helps you
wado
explains some things that is for sure
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Old 09-22-2006, 12:58 PM   #13
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Heck, I was right. There was a roll done just about every decade. I had never considered before but I wonder if that is the case for other tribes.

I'm Keetoowah and my family is from the Ft. Smith area. With my family, they've gone back and forth over the AR/OK border but we first settled in AR.
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Old 07-31-2007, 11:57 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
http://unitedkeetoowahband.org/Docum...49BaseRoll.pdf


I recently discovered this roll online and was casually scrolling down the list of names when I discovered my Grandmother and Grandfather listed and one of her brothers.
But None of her 6 sisters were listed???
So I searched the whole roll and found a few of my kinfolk but not the whole families just a few out of each one...

Is there anyone out there that knows more about this roll
What was the criteria???
And when was it taken???
It says 1949 but that is probably when it was finally done, these rolls usually took several years to do them...
Any info would be usefull

I am not looking to prove blood quatum just curousity
We are already registered members of the CNO
If you notice with my name I am CNO and UKB and a REAL Cherokee Citizen, That roll is incomplete, My great uncle on my dads side is on it, his brother my grandfather is not, both my maternal grand parents are on it...

None of that actually matters to be a Keetoowah you have to prove 1/4 degree of Cherokee blood and that is done by the CNO registeration department, they issue the required BIA letter of certification of your blood from the dawes roll.


And may I ask why not enroll if you meet the criteria. Chad Smith was duel enrolled, until the UKB banished him for Treason, the deputy Joe Grayson is duel enrolled, the Chief of the Keetoowah George Gickliffee was duel enrolled because he ran for CNO Council, and Chief too. If you are 1/4 you are entitled because you are Cherokee.
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Old 08-01-2007, 05:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cornsilk View Post
If you notice with my name I am CNO and UKB and a REAL Cherokee Citizen, That roll is incomplete, My great uncle on my dads side is on it, his brother my grandfather is not, both my maternal grand parents are on it...

None of that actually matters to be a Keetoowah you have to prove 1/4 degree of Cherokee blood and that is done by the CNO registeration department, they issue the required BIA letter of certification of your blood from the dawes roll.


And may I ask why not enroll if you meet the criteria. Chad Smith was duel enrolled, until the UKB banished him for Treason, the deputy Joe Grayson is duel enrolled, the Chief of the Keetoowah George Gickliffee was duel enrolled because he ran for CNO Council, and Chief too. If you are 1/4 you are entitled because you are Cherokee.
My CDIB says 1/2 Cherokee issued by Tahlequah Agency

But....
When I was researching the UKB website I noticed that they have this requirement:
1. Letter of Relinquishment from any other Indian nation, tribe or band of which you have been a member or a notarized Affadavit of Non-Membership (provided by the Enrollment Office); and

2. A certified copy of your 8.5 x 11" Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood showing at least 1/4 degree Keetoowah Cherokee blood.

I tried to find out more information about the 1949 roll but to no avail
I did notice that both my Grandparents are on it but none of there children
Grandma was not old enough to have a roll number she was born in 1907 and her Parents enrolled in 1904. Grandpa has a roll number.
But again I was trying to research farther back I can find my GreatGrandfather on the Miller Guinon Roll.

The more I read about all this the more I realize how History was distorted greatly and even more than I realized.
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Old 08-01-2007, 07:16 PM   #16
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My CDIB says 1/2 Cherokee issued by Tahlequah Agency

But....
When I was researching the UKB website I noticed that they have this requirement:
1. Letter of Relinquishment from any other Indian nation, tribe or band of which you have been a member or a notarized Affadavit of Non-Membership (provided by the Enrollment Office); and

2. A certified copy of your 8.5 x 11" Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood showing at least 1/4 degree Keetoowah Cherokee blood.

I tried to find out more information about the 1949 roll but to no avail
I did notice that both my Grandparents are on it but none of there children
Grandma was not old enough to have a roll number she was born in 1907 and her Parents enrolled in 1904. Grandpa has a roll number.
But again I was trying to research farther back I can find my GreatGrandfather on the Miller Guinon Roll.

The more I read about all this the more I realize how History was distorted greatly and even more than I realized.
Sounds like yoiu may need some professional geneaology help!

What does your blue CNO card say? if it says 1/2 as well then you would have no problem getting it done, and the CNO registeration office is where you get the required documentation for the UKB, if you wanted to enroll there, takes about a month, then you can go back an re-enroll with CNO.

But I guess if you don't live in the nation neither one means much, except with CNO you can vote, with the UKB you can-not vote unless you live here.
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Old 08-01-2007, 10:57 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by John Cornsilk View Post
Sounds like you may need some professional genealogy help!

What does your blue CNO card say? if it says 1/2 as well then you would have no problem getting it done, and the CNO registration office is where you get the required documentation for the UKB, if you wanted to enroll there, takes about a month, then you can go back an re-enroll with CNO.

But I guess if you don't live in the nation neither one means much, except with CNO you can vote, with the UKB you can-not vote unless you live here.

More of a curiosity than anything, a few years ago I lived in Augusta Ga and started wondering where in that region we had come from. So I started researching and found some interesting facts along the way one of which is the Keetoowah Roll...
But I do it just to satisfy my curiosity not to prove ancestry
I have learned alot by just sitting down and reading various documents
And since alot more have been scanned and put online you would be amazed what is out there floating around on the internet.
I use to know some Cornsilks but it was long ago
I have not lived in Tahlequah since 1981 when I joined the Navy...
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Old 08-02-2007, 08:52 AM   #18
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More of a curiosity than anything, a few years ago I lived in Augusta Ga and started wondering where in that region we had come from. So I started researching and found some interesting facts along the way one of which is the Keetoowah Roll...
But I do it just to satisfy my curiosity not to prove ancestry
I have learned alot by just sitting down and reading various documents
And since alot more have been scanned and put online you would be amazed what is out there floating around on the internet.
I use to know some Cornsilks but it was long ago
I have not lived in Tahlequah since 1981 when I joined the Navy...

If you knew them in the Tahlequah area they were my family, there other Cornsilks in different parts of the Cherokee Nation, but we are Not related, nor are we related to any Cornsilks in Cherokee NC.
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Old 08-02-2007, 01:09 PM   #19
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Say no to US govt detemining membership issues.

if CNO want to kick off freedman and they voted for it then fine!
If CNO want to keep Delaware, then fine!

Cherokees should have a right to determine who they want or don't want on their roll according to their own voting and policies.

US govt should have no bearing in determing membership policies for any tribe!

Simpleton words of a fool, that babbles with out learning a little of which they babble, let me ask Do you believe in obeying law? or is it Ok to violate if one thinks one can get away with it?

The words of the 1866 Treaty of the Cherokee are quite clear, as is the 13th ammendment to the US Constitution. If you are not going to bother with learning a little truth about law, and its application to the issue on which you babble, at least read watson's Bill with concern of Law an violation! this applies to the hand clapper agreeing with your pure BS as well! if you really want to help GO HERE and sign our Petition!
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Old 08-02-2007, 01:11 PM   #20
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I have a dream

In the words of Martin Luther King "I Have a Dream"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well Folks, I have been thinking for some time there should be a way to prove this recent Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma election was rigged...

My contention is and has been, it was done with the voting machines, Oldeyes has posted on John's Place on the internet, stories on the simplicity of rigging them, it would be so simple to insert a trigger to reverse the count when a party reach a certain point in deficit...All talk and polling prior to the elction was Boen was ahead by the Margin that Cowan-watts won by.

Then it would be up to the election commission to balance the books to reflect the flip, as the real count.

I recently had a report of an overheard conversation of Sean Burrage the newly elected State senator District 2 Rogers & Mayes Counties and a claimed Choctaw tribal member too boot!!

In a Conversation about Thelda Boens loss of the Election it is said, Burrage said "Those Machines sure done her in good didn't they"

Now I have concluded there is a way, if the Cherokee voters in district 7 are upset enough at being used and mis-used by Cara Cowan-Watts and the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, to just take a few minutes and do something...

I have a list of all the voters that voted in in D-7, if each one that voted for Thelda Rucker Boen would take the time to write, call or email me:

John Cornsilk
14013 N. 524 Rd.
Tahlequah, Ok 74464
918 456-7753
[email protected]
or
Thelda Boen
Po Box 2351
Claremore, Ok. 74018
918-230-6604
[email protected]

And tell us if you voted for Thelda, if that number goes over 237 for both precincts that will tell us Theldas Election was rigged.

The list is in alphabetical order, and many with phone numbers, if 10 or 12 people would volunteer to call them and ask if they voted for Thelda, it is supposed to be a private matter, but if explained it is to expose corruption they may just tell you, go to this link d7 to see the list!

Then maybe Steve Early in D-8, and Linda O'leary D-5 can do the same for their respective races!

Thank you:
John Cornsilk
14013 N. 524 Rd.
Tahlequah, Ok 74464
918 456-7753
[email protected]


Last edited by John Cornsilk; 08-05-2007 at 09:52 AM.. Reason: double posting
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