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Old 03-11-2008, 10:00 AM   #1
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Wannabes Commercialize Their “Ceremonial Grounds”

interesting read and comments...

On The Wings Of Eagles » Wannabes Commercialize Their “Ceremonial Grounds”

Wannabes Commercialize Their “Ceremonial Grounds”

“Lost Cherokee Headman” Doug Cotter is conducting Arkansas Concealed Carry (handgun) Permit training for $40 per person at the organization’s “ceremonial grounds” in Dover, Arkansas. This is one of the factions that has split from the original “Lost Cherokee” in the past couple of years, after a disagreement between Cliff Bishop and Doug Maxwell. If you recall from previous comments, the original “Lost Cherokee” was the group that was involved in spurious Office of Indian Education grants and numerous Arkansas School Districts. The Office of Indian Education continues to give grants nationwide to schools without Indian students, a massive misuse of Indian directed funds.
While the validity of any “ceremonial ground” established by a wannabe “tribe” should be brought into question, the “Lost Cherokee’s” claim of a ceremonial ground and subsequent use of the site for such an activity is a degradation of real ceremonial grounds. This goes to show how far these wannabe “tribes” can go in maligning Indian traditions. Ceremonial grounds are for religious purposes, and the “Lost Cherokee’s” use of their so-called “ceremonial grounds” makes a laughing stock of real ceremonial grounds everywhere.
Concealed Carry Permit training on such grounds are not in keeping with the purpose of those grounds any more than holding bingo games would be.
.As with other non-religious activities, it does not belong there. I find it unimaginable that Cotter could not have located another place in Dover to conduct his activities. Even if the “Lost Cherokee” grounds are a pale wannabe imitation of a ceremonial ground - which I suggest it is - conducting this non-religious activity on the grounds is an insult to legitimate American Indians who value their traditions. At the same time that many Tribes are trying to protect their traditional ceremonial grounds, the “Lost Cherokee” conveys a false impression to the public that ceremonial grounds are unimportant pieces of real estate that have no special meaning and can be commercialized at will.
Lastly, although I support the right of individuals to carry a weapon for protection, I question why a wannabe group would host such training. I suppose that now we will have fully armed wannabe “Cherokees” running around the streets and hills of Arkansas.
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Old 03-11-2008, 07:08 PM   #2
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I don't know why things like this continue to amaze me, but they do. Now when I hear the term "lost Cherokees", the movie Lost Boys pops in my head for some reason.
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Old 03-11-2008, 07:45 PM   #3
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I don't know why things like this continue to amaze me, but they do. Now when I hear the term "lost Cherokees", the movie Lost Boys pops in my head for some reason.

sub,

If a lost Cherokee,

married a found Cherokee...


would their children be lost and found???
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Old 03-11-2008, 07:55 PM   #4
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sub,

If a lost Cherokee,

married a found Cherokee...


would their children be lost and found???
whome, depends, how much is lost?

how much is found?
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe View Post
sub,

If a lost Cherokee,

married a found Cherokee...


would their children be lost and found???
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Old 03-12-2008, 01:52 PM   #6
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sub,

If a lost Cherokee,

married a found Cherokee...


would their children be lost and found???
That's bad!
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Old 03-12-2008, 01:55 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiowakat View Post
interesting read and comments...

On The Wings Of Eagles » Wannabes Commercialize Their “Ceremonial Grounds”

Wannabes Commercialize Their “Ceremonial Grounds”

“Lost Cherokee Headman” Doug Cotter is conducting Arkansas Concealed Carry (handgun) Permit training for $40 per person at the organization’s “ceremonial grounds” in Dover, Arkansas. This is one of the factions that has split from the original “Lost Cherokee” in the past couple of years, after a disagreement between Cliff Bishop and Doug Maxwell. If you recall from previous comments, the original “Lost Cherokee” was the group that was involved in spurious Office of Indian Education grants and numerous Arkansas School Districts. The Office of Indian Education continues to give grants nationwide to schools without Indian students, a massive misuse of Indian directed funds.
While the validity of any “ceremonial ground” established by a wannabe “tribe” should be brought into question, the “Lost Cherokee’s” claim of a ceremonial ground and subsequent use of the site for such an activity is a degradation of real ceremonial grounds. This goes to show how far these wannabe “tribes” can go in maligning Indian traditions. Ceremonial grounds are for religious purposes, and the “Lost Cherokee’s” use of their so-called “ceremonial grounds” makes a laughing stock of real ceremonial grounds everywhere.
Concealed Carry Permit training on such grounds are not in keeping with the purpose of those grounds any more than holding bingo games would be.
.As with other non-religious activities, it does not belong there. I find it unimaginable that Cotter could not have located another place in Dover to conduct his activities. Even if the “Lost Cherokee” grounds are a pale wannabe imitation of a ceremonial ground - which I suggest it is - conducting this non-religious activity on the grounds is an insult to legitimate American Indians who value their traditions. At the same time that many Tribes are trying to protect their traditional ceremonial grounds, the “Lost Cherokee” conveys a false impression to the public that ceremonial grounds are unimportant pieces of real estate that have no special meaning and can be commercialized at will.
Lastly, although I support the right of individuals to carry a weapon for protection, I question why a wannabe group would host such training. I suppose that now we will have fully armed wannabe “Cherokees” running around the streets and hills of Arkansas.
So my feeling here is if they have to offer training in carrying a concealed gun for their members, it makes me wonder if they are in someway expecting trouble with the other factions. Sounds nutty! But on the serious side I'd have to agree with kiowakat in that it sets a bad example in regards to sacred areas or ceremonial grounds for outsiders, and it shows a complete disregard to any, if any traditions they claim to have.
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Old 03-12-2008, 03:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe View Post
sub,

If a lost Cherokee,

married a found Cherokee...


would their children be lost and found???
the lost one who found a found one would no longer be lost unless the found was also lost at that point then they would both be lost till another found them
So in summation
They would be found until they were lost then they would be lost and we would not know they were there because they are lost and cant tell us where they are

Seriously
No such thing as a lost Cherokee we traveled around the world
And always made it back to where we started
So using that analogy they cant be Cherokee
they must be White...
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Old 03-12-2008, 03:40 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiowakat View Post
interesting read and comments...

On The Wings Of Eagles » Wannabes Commercialize Their “Ceremonial Grounds”

Wannabes Commercialize Their “Ceremonial Grounds”

“Lost Cherokee Headman” Doug Cotter is conducting Arkansas Concealed Carry (handgun) Permit training for $40 per person at the organization’s “ceremonial grounds” in Dover, Arkansas. This is one of the factions that has split from the original “Lost Cherokee” in the past couple of years, after a disagreement between Cliff Bishop and Doug Maxwell. If you recall from previous comments, the original “Lost Cherokee” was the group that was involved in spurious Office of Indian Education grants and numerous Arkansas School Districts. The Office of Indian Education continues to give grants nationwide to schools without Indian students, a massive misuse of Indian directed funds.
While the validity of any “ceremonial ground” established by a wannabe “tribe” should be brought into question, the “Lost Cherokee’s” claim of a ceremonial ground and subsequent use of the site for such an activity is a degradation of real ceremonial grounds. This goes to show how far these wannabe “tribes” can go in maligning Indian traditions. Ceremonial grounds are for religious purposes, and the “Lost Cherokee’s” use of their so-called “ceremonial grounds” makes a laughing stock of real ceremonial grounds everywhere.
Concealed Carry Permit training on such grounds are not in keeping with the purpose of those grounds any more than holding bingo games would be.
.As with other non-religious activities, it does not belong there. I find it unimaginable that Cotter could not have located another place in Dover to conduct his activities. Even if the “Lost Cherokee” grounds are a pale wannabe imitation of a ceremonial ground - which I suggest it is - conducting this non-religious activity on the grounds is an insult to legitimate American Indians who value their traditions. At the same time that many Tribes are trying to protect their traditional ceremonial grounds, the “Lost Cherokee” conveys a false impression to the public that ceremonial grounds are unimportant pieces of real estate that have no special meaning and can be commercialized at will.
Lastly, although I support the right of individuals to carry a weapon for protection, I question why a wannabe group would host such training. I suppose that now we will have fully armed wannabe “Cherokees” running around the streets and hills of Arkansas.

The thing is they can do this without fear of prosecution
Just make up things as they go and if a group of them disagrees they break off and form themselves into another group
and now we have two getting ready to split off and form four

Dang
and they can stay under the legal radar as long as they dont sell crafts or memberships to illegals

What a scam
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Old 03-12-2008, 03:50 PM   #10
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Would'nt their ceremonial grounds actually be old Osage and Otoe ceremonial grounds? Or at the very least their old stomping grounds? Not sure them old ones would care much for having cherokee ancestors floating lost among them ...lol
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Old 03-12-2008, 04:10 PM   #11
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Wouldn't their ceremonial grounds actually be old Osage and Otoe ceremonial grounds? Or at the very least their old stomping grounds? Not sure them old ones would care much for having Cherokee ancestors floating lost among them ...lol
It is possible although they would be very very old
These people dont even pay attention to History books!!!

In the early part of the 1800's many different Cherokee groups mainly full bloods that were tired of the politics going on in NC and GA decided to move west to find more open land
So they moved, we are talking more than a 1000 but the numbers were never determined. They settled in what is now Northwest Arkansas and Southwestern Missouri
They had several conflicts with the Osage in the area and pushed them farther west
Finally in 1818 the US Gov stepped in and said enough! a peace treaty was signed between the Osage and "western" Cherokees. They lived in the area peacefully until Ark and Missouri were formed into Territories and they Signed another peace treaty to move into Indian Territory by 1828
IN 1838 the "eastern" Cherokees were moved to join them
Which is called the Trail of Tears
Now these dingalings say that they escaped the prison camps and hid out in Ark and Missouri
In 1851 a Roll was made of the Old Settlers this is the group that had originally settled in the region long before the trail of tears.
There is no lost Tribe or groups that hid out because they moved to Indian Territory
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Old 03-12-2008, 04:18 PM   #12
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Would'nt their ceremonial grounds actually be old Osage and Otoe ceremonial grounds? Or at the very least their old stomping grounds? Not sure them old ones would care much for having cherokee ancestors floating lost among them ...lol

hi BB (wavin) Its just another one of them clubs, you know, when non natives get together and then make a offical "ndn group", then go for the non profit status get a 501c3 and they run with it from there, wether they seek state or federal recognition..blah lol
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Old 03-12-2008, 04:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe View Post
sub,

If a lost Cherokee,

married a found Cherokee...


would their children be lost and found???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
the lost one who found a found one would no longer be lost unless the found was also lost at that point then they would both be lost till another found them
So in summation
They would be found until they were lost then they would be lost and we would not know they were there because they are lost and cant tell us where they are

DANG! LMAO, you guys are good ayeee...
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Old 03-13-2008, 03:35 PM   #14
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sub,

If a lost Cherokee,

married a found Cherokee...


would their children be lost and found???
Two Less Lonely People In The World lyrics

(Howard Greenfield, Ken Hirsch)
I was down my dreams were wearing thin
When you're lost where do you begin
My heart always seemed to drift from day to day
Looking for the love that never came my way
Then you smiled and I reached out to you
I could tell you were lonely too
One look and then it all began for you and me
The moment that we touched I knew that there would be
CHORUS
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And it's gonna be fine
Out of all the people in the world
I just can't believe you're mine
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Something finally went right
Now there's two less lonely people
In the world tonight
Just to think what I might have missed
Looking back how did I exist
I dreamed, still I never thought I'd come this far
But miracles come true, I know 'cause here we are
CHORUS
Tonight I fell in love with you
And all the things I never knew
Seemed to come to me somehow
Baby, love is here and now there's
CHORUS
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Old 03-22-2008, 11:49 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiowakat View Post
interesting read and comments...

On The Wings Of Eagles » Wannabes Commercialize Their “Ceremonial Grounds”

Wannabes Commercialize Their “Ceremonial Grounds”

“Lost Cherokee Headman” Doug Cotter is conducting Arkansas Concealed Carry (handgun) Permit training for $40 per person at the organization’s “ceremonial grounds” in Dover, Arkansas. This is one of the factions that has split from the original “Lost Cherokee” in the past couple of years, after a disagreement between Cliff Bishop and Doug Maxwell. If you recall from previous comments, the original “Lost Cherokee” was the group that was involved in spurious Office of Indian Education grants and numerous Arkansas School Districts. The Office of Indian Education continues to give grants nationwide to schools without Indian students, a massive misuse of Indian directed funds.
While the validity of any “ceremonial ground” established by a wannabe “tribe” should be brought into question, the “Lost Cherokee’s” claim of a ceremonial ground and subsequent use of the site for such an activity is a degradation of real ceremonial grounds. This goes to show how far these wannabe “tribes” can go in maligning Indian traditions. Ceremonial grounds are for religious purposes, and the “Lost Cherokee’s” use of their so-called “ceremonial grounds” makes a laughing stock of real ceremonial grounds everywhere.
Concealed Carry Permit training on such grounds are not in keeping with the purpose of those grounds any more than holding bingo games would be.
.As with other non-religious activities, it does not belong there. I find it unimaginable that Cotter could not have located another place in Dover to conduct his activities. Even if the “Lost Cherokee” grounds are a pale wannabe imitation of a ceremonial ground - which I suggest it is - conducting this non-religious activity on the grounds is an insult to legitimate American Indians who value their traditions. At the same time that many Tribes are trying to protect their traditional ceremonial grounds, the “Lost Cherokee” conveys a false impression to the public that ceremonial grounds are unimportant pieces of real estate that have no special meaning and can be commercialized at will.
Lastly, although I support the right of individuals to carry a weapon for protection, I question why a wannabe group would host such training. I suppose that now we will have fully armed wannabe “Cherokees” running around the streets and hills of Arkansas.
It really is a shame!
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Old 07-12-2008, 11:28 PM   #16
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Old 07-13-2008, 08:43 AM   #17
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You know when I read stuff like this I just shake my head they have twisted facts and chose to only believe certain parts of history for so long that they begin to believe it themselves:

Case in Point: Why is it that you people are so quick to put down Indian people whose ancestors had the b---- to say no to signing up on a roll and chose instead to live their lives as they chose and stay where they were in Arkansas rather than move to Oklahoma. Blood is Blood regardless of whether your ancestors name is on a roll or not and I cannot understand why this is so hard for you to accept.

Now I read this and say ummm your not thinking there was only one roll right??? Because most of these people have the mistaken notion that the Dawes Rolls was the only one.

Rolls Before and During Removal

Reservation Rolls 1817
Recorded the Cherokees who chose to accept a plot of land on the Cherokee reservation (Eastern Band).

Emigration Rolls 1817-1835
Recorded those Cherokee who chose to "emigrate" to Indian Territory west of the Mississippi River in present day Oklahoma and Arkansas (prior to the Trail of Tears.)

Henderson Roll 1835
Recorded those Cherokees who were to be removed to Indian Territory on what would later be called the Trail of Tears.

Post Removal Rolls

Mullay Roll 1848
Recorded the Cherokees who remained in North Carolina after removal.

Siler Roll 1851 - Eastern
Recorded Eastern Cherokee entitled to per capita payment.

Old Settler Roll 1851 - Western
Recorded those Cherokee (still living) who had emigrated to Indian Territory prior to removal.

Chapman Roll 1852 - Eastern
Recorded the Eastern Cherokee who actually received payment from the government (reference to Siler Roll).

Drennen Roll 1852 - Western
Recorded those Cherokee who came to Indian Territory in 1839 on the Trail of Tears.

Act of Congress Roll 1854 - Eastern
Small roll of names added to the Siler Roll.

Swetland Roll 1869 - Eastern
Recorded those Cherokees, and their descendants, who were listed on the Mullay Roll as residing in North Carolina.

Hester Roll 1883 - Eastern
A roll of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians which provides a good deal of detail about those listed.

Churchill Roll 1908 - Eastern
Additional roll of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians which also included a list of those rejected from the Eastern Band.

Guion Miller Roll 1909 - Eastern & Western
For Cherokees (east and west) excluding the "Old Settlers" who were effected by numerous treaty violations and might be eligible for a monetary award as a result of the treaty violations.

Baker Roll 1924 - Eastern
The final roll of the Eastern Band of the Cherokee in anticipation of allotment. The land was not allotted and the reservation still exists. This roll is the basis for tribal membership in the Eastern Band.

The Dawes Rolls 1898-1914 - Western
The final roll of the western Cherokee. The roll ended the Cherokee Nation and allotted the land to the roll signers. This roll is the basis for tribal membership in the Cherokee Nation.


Here is the point to this
If none of your Ancestors showed up on any of these rolls from 1817 to 1914 then it was a pretty good bet they were not Cherokee!!! They had chose to move away from there kinfolk and live as whites that was their choice and some did that. Mostly the mixed bloods had done this. When you understand our history the Full bloods had been the ones that "emigrated" Long before the trail of tears.
That is what started so much bad blood during the dark days of the 1840's and 1850's when the mix breeds that had been moved to Oklahoma and started flexing their political muscle to take back over the tribal council!!!

History is there to read and study, You cant take parts of it and twist it to your needs because there will always be someone that comes along calls BULLSHYTE on it!!!
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Old 07-14-2008, 02:25 AM   #18
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This kind of stuff never fails to piss me off. People like "Chief" Whatever his name is, give Cherokee a bad name. They're in my opinion one of the reasons why you can't say "Huh? Oh I'm part Cherokee." In mainstream America without being subject to waves of criticism. I mean geez, this is almost as bad as a woman who KNOWS she has a weave lying and saying "Oh, you know I got that Cherokee Indian in my family."
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Old 07-14-2008, 11:23 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Revolutionary View Post
This kind of stuff never fails to piss me off. People like "Chief" Whatever his name is, give Cherokee a bad name. They're in my opinion one of the reasons why you can't say "Huh? Oh I'm part Cherokee." In mainstream America without being subject to waves of criticism. I mean geez, this is almost as bad as a woman who KNOWS she has a weave lying and saying "Oh, you know I got that Cherokee Indian in my family."
That is a problem I have here. I am in Arkansas, and when someone says they are Cherokee, I immediately wonder if they are with these groups. It might not be so bad in other states, but here, it is something to consider. So far, I don't think I have met any of them.
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