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Old 11-14-2006, 09:15 PM   #41
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Your situation is no different the others east of the Mississippi. The NDN was pushed west to make room for the new people coming from Europe and other lands. Your kin choose to hide out and hope to keep the land safe. It didn't happen. So you are now lost so to speak learning bits and pieces as you go. The puzzle may never be complete.

It seems that the only way to complete the puzzle is to live with and learn from your people. Easier said the done. Non acceptance is normal in this day and age because of the mixing of blood. There is also the fact that you did not grow up on the reservation with your people learning the ways from birth. Most people out east have the same story as you.

I was born east of the Mississippi. However I was educated in the ways out west when I lived in Montana. I was not exposed to our ways as a child. It was all adult education just as you. However I was able to live with the people and learn the ways. When I returned east, I was somewhat placed in "culture shock" because of what was happening out east. There are a lot of mixed up ways here from what I was taught. After looking at the situation for a long time, I found that the people here were finding bits and pieces of their heratage and filling in the rest with the ways of others or sorry to say "improvising". There is a lot of improvasation out east here espically in Oh, In. Ill. Ky. Tenn. Mi. WVa. and other surrounding states. So the people are laughed at.

When I am asked for advice here, my advice is usually met with the words, "Take your western ways and go home. That doesn't work here". Sorry to say but it is true. This entire area is filled with people who think they know what is going on who have assembled their knowlege from bits and pieces and have made up the rest to fit their lifestyle. It seems that the old ways of tradition no longer fit these people so the old traditions are once again lost due to lifestyle.

Most of the old traditions and ways teach basic moral standards. Mans morals have changed greatly in the past 100 years. It's sad but true.

Can you amagine what could happen it we applied the old traditions and morals to todays standards and lifestyles. Our chirldren would be better educated. Business would be fair and just. Trade would benifit both sides. All people would enjoy the benifits of modern society. The air and rivers would be cleaner. Everything would be much better then it is today.
It's a bummer, isn't it? So much has been lost. But as a newcomer, I need to ask....aren't there differences in the way the western and woodland peoples did things? Did all tribes do all their ceremonies the same? Is there a way to honor the differences and still respect the differences of the other tribes? Finding the way back to the right path in the dark woods sometimes takes alot of stumbling and thrashing around in the brambles and looking a bit silly to others.....but ya have to give them credit for trying. They're at loeast DOING something.
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Old 11-14-2006, 09:25 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by StandnWolf
My father was full blood and he was so disgusted with the white mans way of treating him, we moved to Ohio, where he could get a job and never tell anyone who or what he was. Even though just looking at him you could see it. Finally, years later, he lost the anger and was proud to be what he was. As a child growing up, I never understood why parents kept their children away from me, now THAT'S predjudice! My G/ma sat me down and explained how people were the way they were and to be proud of my blood. Taught me our ways, to be patient with my dad and others. Bless her!
And you're right about some meds. My doc gave me meds to help me stop smoking and because it messed with my brain chemistry, I had an allergic reaction to it a serious one. So, it's good to let your doctor know about your heritage so he/she are aware, it can be fatal for some of us. Also, stings from bee's and other biting insects can impact you more than others...just to for-warn you. I found out the hard way...lol!
WHOOOOEEE!!! So THAT"S where that particular trait comes from. My Hubby has to keep an Epi pen handy in the warmer months. A sweat bee sting can make him very sick. The VA dr's kept giving him different blood pressure meds with very scary results, until one VA Doc wondered WHY they were trying to give him the sort of meds they were giving him, since he was an Indian??? They didn't listen. She got Hubby on one he tolerated better, but even it had nasty side effects. He's lost weight and is on a herbal formula and is doing MUCH better. But there's a bunch of meds he cannot take. NDNs are just different, medically.
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Old 11-14-2006, 09:43 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeannB
It's a bummer, isn't it? So much has been lost. But as a newcomer, I need to ask....aren't there differences in the way the western and woodland peoples did things? Did all tribes do all their ceremonies the same? Is there a way to honor the differences and still respect the differences of the other tribes? Finding the way back to the right path in the dark woods sometimes takes alot of stumbling and thrashing around in the brambles and looking a bit silly to others.....but ya have to give them credit for trying. They're at loeast DOING something.
Sure there are a lot of differences in dance, dress, teachings, hunting skills, housing, etc.
The point I am trying to make is when you meet 5 people who claim the same tribe in one area, do the same things different. For example:patterns in the regulia of the people. All five are different use different patterns but the claim what they mean are the same. Some dance barefoot while others dance in mocs. Same 5 people claiming the same tribe. When asking one about the barefoot dancing, he claims, "the others are wrong, this is how we do it". The same response comes from the one who wares mocs in the circle. Which is correct. Both claim to be correct but do not have solid tribal proof. Which one do you believe? Which way do YOU go? Everyone has a different anwser to the same question. People here fill in the blanks with whateve they want without reguard. There is no consistancy.

Out west even people of eastern tribes who have relocated because of work or other reasons do things the same.

This brings me to another point. Some here claim elder status. OK Fine. Some actually say that "it's ok to do thing different. Do what is comfortable for you". In other words, Make up what you want to do. That's just fine.

Look at the thread on elders. (Who and What is an Elder) Take a good read on that subject. You will find the same inconsistancies with self proclaimed elders.
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Old 11-14-2006, 09:46 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by cougar
There are millions of people today that think they are Cherokee because someone has told them they have a Cherokee ancestor. I cannot believe the number of people that come up to me and say they are Cherokee. Native Americans only make up around 2% of the Nation's popluation... I stumbled upon a useful site for those claiming to be Cherokee and who want to enroll in the Cherokee community. If you think you are Cherokee and you think you can prove it, please go here: http://www.nc-cherokee.com/howenroll.htm.
Only two percent? Wonder how they got those figures? Maybe they were just counting the ones on the rez; wonder how many folks are living there and how that relates to the actual population of the US? Someone better with math than me had better do that math, LOL!

As for the Cherokee--they were one of the largest tribes inthe area, and they DID get around. In southern Ohio and northern Kentucky, the tribes mixed and moved around a lot, too. And alot of them didn't go on the Trail of Tears. Many were the product of mixed marriages and just "passed" for white, if they thought they could get away with it. That way they could keep their bit of fields and their cabins and livestock and such. I've heard alot of folks say they had Cherokee in them, too----and I have wondered. Then I hear about this and that medical problem some of them are having, and I am inclined to believe them. Not all folks of Cherokee blood were allowed to enroll on the Dawes rolls, etc., and weren't counted (or just didn't want to be counted)----but that doesn't mean they didn't carry the tribal genes to the next generaion. Like I posted earlier---it's fun to do the geneology and hsitory, and worth checking out!
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Old 11-14-2006, 09:48 PM   #45
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Only 2%???? Where does this information come from?
Here is a useful site to back that up a little: http://www.americanwest.com/pages/indrank.htm
The United States population right now is around 300 million: http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.html
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:00 PM   #46
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Only two percent? Wonder how they got those figures? Maybe they were just counting the ones on the rez; wonder how many folks are living there and how that relates to the actual population of the US? Someone better with math than me had better do that math, LOL!

As for the Cherokee--they were one of the largest tribes inthe area, and they DID get around. In southern Ohio and northern Kentucky, the tribes mixed and moved around a lot, too. And alot of them didn't go on the Trail of Tears. Many were the product of mixed marriages and just "passed" for white, if they thought they could get away with it. That way they could keep their bit of fields and their cabins and livestock and such. I've heard alot of folks say they had Cherokee in them, too----and I have wondered. Then I hear about this and that medical problem some of them are having, and I am inclined to believe them. Not all folks of Cherokee blood were allowed to enroll on the Dawes rolls, etc., and weren't counted (or just didn't want to be counted)----but that doesn't mean they didn't carry the tribal genes to the next generaion. Like I posted earlier---it's fun to do the geneology and hsitory, and worth checking out!
You could be correct but I wouldn't know because I don't think I am Cherokee or know enough about Cherokees to tell you, which is one reason why I provided that site. There is contact information on there if you think you may have a family member on that roll. You could call them or request a copy of the roll to take a look. Hope you find the information you are looking for.
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Old 11-14-2006, 10:12 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar
Here is a useful site to back that up a little: http://www.americanwest.com/pages/indrank.htm
The United States population right now is around 300 million: http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.html
1990 Census???? sorry not good enough. That info is 16 years old. Less the 75% of the population fill out the census forms and send them in. A lot of the forms that are also sent in are inaccurate due to smudges and other errors. Just think of voting machines and the errors they create. There is also a population of people who refuse to be counted. Another part of the population was living at a different address from where the forms were sent so those people were never counted. There was also that check box marked "other". A lot of mixed people checked that box. black/white red/white black/red red/other etc. The cencus is very inaccurate.

Another thing: Due to parents covering their true culture, a lot of native people were marked as white.

Looking at your bio, you were only 4 years old or so. How did your parents mark there census for you? Did they even get one?

Oops! One thing I forgot: Many reseveration in this country didn't have home delivery of mail in 1990. They still don't today. How many ndns got the forms from their post office and tossed them in the trash can at the office. Back in the 80s and 90s there were a lot of ticked off ndns because of what was going on in the government who could not care less about the census.
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Old 11-15-2006, 12:02 AM   #48
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According to Census 2000, people who checked they were only Indian plus people who checked Indian and any other race (because on Census 2000, for the first time ever, you could self-identify by listing multiple races and ethnicities. This helps clear up the confusion that TKMJ Productions was talking about with the "other" box. The majority of people who ended up marking "other" on Census 2000 put Hispanic as their ethnicity and "other" as their race, when given the choices of: black, white, Asian, Native American, other. This is because of the confusion that Hispanic is a "race" when its actually considered an "ethnicity". Confusing, right?).....were 1.5% of the total US population, or 4.4 million.

That's straight from the Census' mouth, lol:
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...ns/005684.html

Leann and Standnwolf- I am curious about the health problems/problems with medications you are both referring to. Can you talk a little more about this?

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Old 11-15-2006, 12:46 AM   #49
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If a Bluejay egg is placed in a Robin's nest, and raised by Robin's, when the Bluejay grows mature it will build a nest like a Bluejay, and not like a Robin. The Bluejay is still a Bluejay.

Therefore, it raises the question...is being NDN a genetically inherited trait or a set of learned cultural behaviors, or both?
I have a cousin who was raised to think that his dad was his real dad (which he is), although his biological father (who never raised him or was around him) comes out in my cousin. He is stingy, a real miser, and ssllllow, he moves like a snail, and can't see things right in front of him, these are all traits of his biological dad. So genetics come out in one way or another.
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Old 11-15-2006, 05:12 AM   #50
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I do think that Genetics plays a part in our everyday work and play. I think that we learn most of our ways of doing things, but as I have been told I do things such as my Grandpa did. I'm talking expressions mannerism, etc.

I think to be NDN does need to have the blood line but as many of our Tribes had done blood may be quite thin and still be a viable part of the Tribe. This brings us to another point. What about those of us who are of many different Tribes? Are we not NDN just because we don't have enough NDN of any particular Tribe to be a Status NDN? (Just an Example).

Most of my family is from right here in MO and have been here for as long as most know about. I am 1/2 and at birth my Mom and Dad thought it best to place White in the race catagory, since I was born in the 1950's. Not a very popular thing to be NDN and have an up and coming future. I understand now that they were only trying to look out for what they thought would be a better future for me. I only wish now that they would have stated that I am NDN. The US Army did allow me to change that status on my Military records.

I think, also, that we are NDN in our culture whether we are raised in the Tribal traditional Religion or any other Religion. I was raised in the Christian Church(Methodist) and am still able to be NDN. I enjoy our Stomp dances, Powwows, lodge meetings ect. I think an Uncle helped me put these things in perspective, NDN's can be Christians and still be NDN.
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Old 11-15-2006, 06:40 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cougar
You could be correct but I wouldn't know because I don't think I am Cherokee or know enough about Cherokees to tell you, which is one reason why I provided that site. There is contact information on there if you think you may have a family member on that roll. You could call them or request a copy of the roll to take a look. Hope you find the information you are looking for.
Thanks for the info!!! We already have family members enrolled in the Cherokee---Hubby's side of the family has mixed Shawnee and Cherokee on his Mom's side. I'm reading a book now titled The Shawnee and Their Neighbors 1795-1870, by Stephen Warren. It's good stuff--it's opened my eyes to alot of the pan-tribal families in the early 1800's. Hubby's Mom Mom tried to explain it to me, but the book has alot more background. Also--the Cherokee invited alot of Shawnee into their tribe before the clearances, to try help and let them stay put undisturbed. I really do need to read up on that some more!
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Old 11-15-2006, 07:07 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by eap7
According to Census 2000, people who checked they were only Indian plus people who checked Indian and any other race (because on Census 2000, for the first time ever, you could self-identify by listing multiple races and ethnicities. This helps clear up the confusion that TKMJ Productions was talking about with the "other" box. The majority of people who ended up marking "other" on Census 2000 put Hispanic as their ethnicity and "other" as their race, when given the choices of: black, white, Asian, Native American, other. This is because of the confusion that Hispanic is a "race" when its actually considered an "ethnicity". Confusing, right?).....were 1.5% of the total US population, or 4.4 million.

That's straight from the Census' mouth, lol:
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...ns/005684.html

Leann and Standnwolf- I am curious about the health problems/problems with medications you are both referring to. Can you talk a little more about this?
I can't speak for Standnwolf---but Hubby can't have any of the caine sries of meds, like Novacain. Dentists have to put him totally under; he broke the arm of an Army Dentist years ago who told him, "this won't hurt a bit." REALLY! He can't handle any alcohol---but lotsa Indians are like that, LOL! Many antibiodics are a bad thing. He gets a buzz off ibuprophen--go figure. He is highly sensitive to meds that a Dr wouldn't think twice about offering a white person. He is diet controled diabetic; he was on insulin for awhile, but it didn't help his sugar swings. Now we just watch his diet---not alot of junk. The anti-nausea shot after a bad bout of tummy flu sent him unto all night shaking jitter fits. Blood pressure meds can be organized into several categories, and some of the categories an NDN should NOT take. He WAS on Lisinopril, a Beta blocker; that was the one the VA Dr gave him, and he tolerated it the best. But after a few years of muscle cramps, he weaned himself off of that and got on an herbal formula that is working much better with far fewer side effects. Sounds like he's sickly---but he isn't. He used to be a drill Instructor for the Army, could push troops with the best, and is still a very active guy. But I hve to watch him like a hawk if he gets to feeling a bit puny----because most Dr's don't realize there's a differents in how NDN's handle meds--or they think we are stupid and just don't know anything.

As for the dental thing---the old dentist that worked on my MIL's teeth told her that Indians have FOUR roots on their molars----which make them more difficult to pull. The novacain shots have to be given in the bracial nerve, on the jawbone joint. That gets the whole area numb. He was the first dentist that hadn't REALLY hurt her, and when she asked WHY it hadn't hurt, he told her she was Indian. And that started the whole voyage.....
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Old 11-15-2006, 07:25 AM   #53
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I do think that Genetics plays a part in our everyday work and play. I think that we learn most of our ways of doing things, but as I have been told I do things such as my Grandpa did. I'm talking expressions mannerism, etc.

I think to be NDN does need to have the blood line but as many of our Tribes had done blood may be quite thin and still be a viable part of the Tribe. This brings us to another point. What about those of us who are of many different Tribes? Are we not NDN just because we don't have enough NDN of any particular Tribe to be a Status NDN? (Just an Example).

Most of my family is from right here in MO and have been here for as long as most know about. I am 1/2 and at birth my Mom and Dad thought it best to place White in the race catagory, since I was born in the 1950's. Not a very popular thing to be NDN and have an up and coming future. I understand now that they were only trying to look out for what they thought would be a better future for me. I only wish now that they would have stated that I am NDN. The US Army did allow me to change that status on my Military records.

I think, also, that we are NDN in our culture whether we are raised in the Tribal traditional Religion or any other Religion. I was raised in the Christian Church(Methodist) and am still able to be NDN. I enjoy our Stomp dances, Powwows, lodge meetings ect. I think an Uncle helped me put these things in perspective, NDN's can be Christians and still be NDN.
Hi, Bob! We're a mixed group, too--Hubby's Dad is Miami; his Mom, Shawnee and Cherokee; altogether, he's 75% Indian genetics. You just can't put him 100% one tribe. The book I am now reading (the Shawnees and Their Neirghbors, by Stephen Warren) makes the point that it was the gov't who wanted to divide the various villages on Indiana and Ohio and such into strict tribal groups. Before, various tibes would at times move in and out of village life, but they were goverened by village elders and rules. But the gov't wanted to centralize the power so they could find the cheifs and get them to sign away land rights. Having a centralized tribal authority made the transaction appear more legit. The tribal roles were apart of this effort. But if a person was 1/2 Shawnee, 1/4 Delaware and 1/4 Cherokee---how could you say he wasn't all Indian? Maybe someone could enlighten me here.
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Old 11-15-2006, 07:35 AM   #54
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I do think that Genetics plays a part in our everyday work and play. I think that we learn most of our ways of doing things, but as I have been told I do things such as my Grandpa did. I'm talking expressions mannerism, etc.

I think to be NDN does need to have the blood line but as many of our Tribes had done blood may be quite thin and still be a viable part of the Tribe. This brings us to another point. What about those of us who are of many different Tribes? Are we not NDN just because we don't have enough NDN of any particular Tribe to be a Status NDN? (Just an Example).

Most of my family is from right here in MO and have been here for as long as most know about. I am 1/2 and at birth my Mom and Dad thought it best to place White in the race catagory, since I was born in the 1950's. Not a very popular thing to be NDN and have an up and coming future. I understand now that they were only trying to look out for what they thought would be a better future for me. I only wish now that they would have stated that I am NDN. The US Army did allow me to change that status on my Military records.

I think, also, that we are NDN in our culture whether we are raised in the Tribal traditional Religion or any other Religion. I was raised in the Christian Church(Methodist) and am still able to be NDN. I enjoy our Stomp dances, Powwows, lodge meetings ect. I think an Uncle helped me put these things in perspective, NDN's can be Christians and still be NDN.
That's the point I was trying to make Bob. 1/64 or 1/132. You still have NDN blood. If you have native in your direct bloodline, Your NDN. Now comes the question for the 1/64 or 1/132 NDN. Do you feel NDN? Do you want to walk the path FULL TIME?

I have a close friend where talk in his family is that his great grandfather was full blood. They can all trace the line back to a hole where his great grandfather is suppose to be. No birth or death records and no pictures. The story goes to say that this great grandfather refused to have his picture taken. We assume it was the "take my spirit and put it in a box" thing.

He also follows my powwow schedule I post on my website. He makes about 50% of the powwows I run sound at. He even helps me set up or tare down sometimes. However he refuses to enter the circle during an intertribal. You can see in his eyes and heart that he wants to be there but will not enter untill the link is found. I told him it's just fine to enter. There is so much more to the story like how he handles my eagle feathers and all. He feels he has the blood. You can see he has the blood. He just can't prove it yet.
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Old 11-15-2006, 07:57 AM   #55
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I think, also, that we are NDN in our culture whether we are raised in the Tribal traditional Religion or any other Religion. I was raised in the Christian Church(Methodist) and am still able to be NDN. I enjoy our Stomp dances, Powwows, lodge meetings ect. I think an Uncle helped me put these things in perspective, NDN's can be Christians and still be NDN.
Another good point! Look at the paralells between our native religions and the basic christian teachings. They all seem to run in the same direction using different names and styles of worship. In 1492 we were told we were savages. Were we really? We just didn't have the formal structure of europian teachings. So they called us savages. Back then I still think we had basic christian teachings from our own people. We just didn't have the corruption of the christian religions of europe. LOL!!!
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Old 11-15-2006, 08:23 AM   #56
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According to Census 2000, people who checked they were only Indian plus people who checked Indian and any other race (because on Census 2000, for the first time ever, you could self-identify by listing multiple races and ethnicities. This helps clear up the confusion that TKMJ Productions was talking about with the "other" box. The majority of people who ended up marking "other" on Census 2000 put Hispanic as their ethnicity and "other" as their race, when given the choices of: black, white, Asian, Native American, other. This is because of the confusion that Hispanic is a "race" when its actually considered an "ethnicity". Confusing, right?).....were 1.5% of the total US population, or 4.4 million.

That's straight from the Census' mouth, lol:
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...ns/005684.html
Just remember that's 1.5% reported. How many of us tossed the census. I know quite a few ndn who used them as kindling
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Old 11-15-2006, 08:46 AM   #57
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Only two percent? Wonder how they got those figures? Maybe they were just counting the ones on the rez; wonder how many folks are living there and how that relates to the actual population of the US? Someone better with math than me had better do that math, LOL!

As for the Cherokee--they were one of the largest tribes inthe area, and they DID get around. In southern Ohio and northern Kentucky, the tribes mixed and moved around a lot, too. And alot of them didn't go on the Trail of Tears. Many were the product of mixed marriages and just "passed" for white, if they thought they could get away with it. That way they could keep their bit of fields and their cabins and livestock and such. I've heard alot of folks say they had Cherokee in them, too----and I have wondered. Then I hear about this and that medical problem some of them are having, and I am inclined to believe them. Not all folks of Cherokee blood were allowed to enroll on the Dawes rolls, etc., and weren't counted (or just didn't want to be counted)----but that doesn't mean they didn't carry the tribal genes to the next generaion. Like I posted earlier---it's fun to do the geneology and hsitory, and worth checking out!
I for one did just that, and found out a lot about where I came from, and who I am. Yes I have done the same thing, wondered this and that about alot of people I have meet along the way, but to add my 2 frybreads worth on the topic tkmj brought up. I to have listened and watched much as you have, and heard them say this and that about how things are done, on both sides. The way I see it is this way. In their minds they are right, but I figure that some where in the middle is the truth, and until I see or hear it from someone in that tribe or people, I just go along with the flow. Just because someone says something is right doesn't mean it is, just that that is how they view it.
For myself, I will just do the best I can, respect others and live my life, to be the best person I can be, and let the rest go along and be what they think is the best, and not fuss with them about what is right or wrong, just live and let live.
I know there has been those that have ideas about things concerning singing, drumming and dancing that I don't agree with, so I move along and let them have their way, because if they are wrong, the elders will know and do what they think is right with those people and their ways. Straighten out so to speak..So to get back to where I was at, just to let you know, I live my life as close as I can to be Cherokee, or tsalagi if that is what you want to hear said. I will seek out the ones I need to talk to and figure out just where I belong, and live my life the best I can.
Does it sound like I'm rambling?...........sorry!
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Old 11-15-2006, 09:01 AM   #58
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I.
I live my life as close as I can to be Cherokee, or tsalagi if that is what you want to hear said. I will seek out the ones I need to talk to and figure out just where I belong, and live my life the best I can.
Does it sound like I'm rambling?...........sorry!
Exactly my point Dtwosnakes! You seek out the truth and not make things up along the way. That's the way it should be done!
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Old 11-15-2006, 09:10 AM   #59
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According to Census 2000, people who checked they were only Indian plus people who checked Indian and any other race (because on Census 2000, for the first time ever, you could self-identify by listing multiple races and ethnicities. This helps clear up the confusion that TKMJ Productions was talking about with the "other" box. The majority of people who ended up marking "other" on Census 2000 put Hispanic as their ethnicity and "other" as their race, when given the choices of: black, white, Asian, Native American, other. This is because of the confusion that Hispanic is a "race" when its actually considered an "ethnicity". Confusing, right?).....were 1.5% of the total US population, or 4.4 million.

That's straight from the Census' mouth, lol:
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...ns/005684.html

Leann and Standnwolf- I am curious about the health problems/problems with medications you are both referring to. Can you talk a little more about this?
The government does all sorts of weird things with the "combo race" people for reports. Here is the official stance for "mixed" race people for 2 of the government stat projects I have personal knowledge of:

if you say you are one race then you are that race (including other)
if you say you are more than one race:

if you say white and some other race from the list - you are the other listed race

if you are any two races other than white - you are multi racial

if you check any race and choose "other" then you are multi racial

SO -

All ndns + black (or asian, etc) are multi racial
All ndns + white are ndn
All ndns who checked other and wrote in their tribes are multi-racial

Just an FYI -

b2w

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Old 11-15-2006, 09:13 AM   #60
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Exactly my point Dtwosnakes! You seek out the truth and not make things up along the way. That's the way it should be done!
Hear, Hear!!!
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