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Old 07-30-2007, 12:55 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Wahishta View Post
If your better off on your own, why are you afraid of my words? My words cannot harm you...nor can my ideas, my paintings or poetry...
If you want to be left alone, does that mean you are happy with your life, your income, your education? Does it mean your children are well fed, warm in winter and have a healthy world view?
I just believe in listening to what is being said and not being confused with someone else's words...my words are mine and do not represent anyone, any group or retoric from any place.
I wish you well...I wish you peace...I wish you joy, and I wish the same for your children and their children.
Please dont kid yourself,i am NOT afraid of your words.
Yes,im happy with my life,my income,my education.My children have everything they need in life as well as a very strong value system of whats right and wrong in this world.
Why do you think being Indian excludes us from being happy or educated or responsible for our lives and those of our childrens? Is assimilating going to make us better parents? or make us happy?The relocation programs forced on indian peoples in the 40s and 50s are a great example of why not to assimilate.Assimilation means absolute termination for Indian people as a people and that is exactly what the US government wants,the right wing anti-indian anti-casino groups want,the oil and mineral companies and others who wish to exploit the earth for profit want.
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Old 07-30-2007, 01:04 AM   #222
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And one more thing...When I speak of illegal aliens, I am refering to those who sneak into this country and steal from us all. I post information about the numbers of those who do this. Illegals are breaking the laws of our country, and should be treated like they are breaking the laws.
They are taking jobs from carpenters, landscapers, and others. There are over 300,000 in prisons here for committing crimes. The list is unbelievable of how much money is directed to them, and how many billions of dollars they send to Mexico.
It is important to know these things. It will and does affect you and the people.
How much do you think that head of lettuce will cost or the apple you eat if it isnt picked by an illegal alien?Can you afford 4.00 for one apple? They do jobs that other people will not do for wages that no one else would work for.Do i think those workers should be allowed to work here legally? yes i do.Ask yourself this tho please: who would benefit the most from hiring workers at below minimum wage,not having to pay taxes on that workers,or benefits?Big business does NOT want illegal aliens to be deported,they lose money when that happens.A few campaign contributions here and there and a good lobbiest in DC and poof the aliens stay illegal,business continues as normal.If it wasnt about making a profit,trust me,there would be no illegal aliens in the US.
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Old 07-30-2007, 01:43 AM   #223
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[QUOTE=Skillet;949291]How much do you think that head of lettuce will cost or the apple you eat if it isnt picked by an illegal alien?Can you afford 4.00 for one apple? They do jobs that other people will not do for wages that no one else would work for.Do i think those workers should be allowed to work here legally? yes i do

They also do jobs that take jobs away from many in the trades. The day labor market is huge, and it is cheating, it's wrong.

It's an old argument... and not the only argument I have. I believe that this country would get the work done, get paid, and there would be a happier community if we didn't have to worry about the illegals, the terrorists or worse.


Ask yourself this tho please: who would benefit the most from hiring workers at below minimum wage,not having to pay taxes on that workers,or benefits?Big business does NOT want illegal aliens to be deported,they lose money when that happens.A few campaign contributions here and there and a good lobbiest in DC and poof the aliens stay illegal,business continues as normal.If it wasnt about making a profit,trust me,there would be no illegal aliens in the US

I totally agree with you on this...big business should be punished, and so should all who knowingly allow them to take from all of us.

When I was a kid, and my parents were kids, we were the ones who made our spending money by picking fruits and veggies. It was our summer jobs that paid for all the things teens want...music...clothes parents won't buy, paying mom and dad a few bucks appreciation for living space. It's the way kids learn to "assimilate into society". I think it was a learning experience...a growing up and learning responsability experience. WSY?

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Old 07-30-2007, 02:06 AM   #224
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And one more thing...When I speak of illegal aliens, I am refering to those who sneak into this country and steal from us all. I post information about the numbers of those who do this. Illegals are breaking the laws of our country, and should be treated like they are breaking the laws.
They are taking jobs from carpenters, landscapers, and others. There are over 300,000 in prisons here for committing crimes. The list is unbelievable of how much money is directed to them, and how many billions of dollars they send to Mexico.
It is important to know these things. It will and does affect you and the people.
Let's get back to the topic. I want white people to know that when they hire these 'illegal' aliens from Mexico, they are taking away from the mouths of journeymen tradesmen. Those of us who are skilled or state certified in a trade. Why is it that businessmen will hire 'illegal' aliens when there is a number of Americans that can do the job. And there is no language barrier. I wonder how many 'billions would stay in this country if it weren't for greed.

BTW I work for a Fortune 5 company in Fiber Optics. I talk to people from all over the country on a daily basis. At the end of the day, I come home, let my hair down and thank the One who created me for making me who I am and not letting me forget that.
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Old 07-30-2007, 11:18 AM   #225
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Not all who are right wing are against you.... In fact, I have many friends who are devoted to your welfare. If you think the left is on your side, don't be so sure...I use to be a part of that left, until I did a lot of research....
Pick and choose, but don't be blind to help when it arrives on your doorstep.
I am not the enemy...I am a part of what is happening in the world...I am politically savy and realize there are good people on both sides...I just wish you could be open to someone like me who really does care about your future...and your children's future...peace be with you my friend.
If open mind translates into assimilation NO THANKS!! Assimilate, gave up traditional ideals or mix them with euro-american ideals all you want. But when you try to say that this is a good idea for those of us that Zeke likes to call "backwards NDN's". well then you are doing us more harm then the whites who want us to do the same.

Also what is best for my children is NOT settling for less, are giving up part of who they are, this will only lead to a downfall & disentigration of our cultures. And I did not face the end of an army gun for that to happen.

Suzze

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Old 07-30-2007, 11:57 AM   #226
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Why is it that businessmen will hire 'illegal' aliens when there is a number of Americans that can do the job. And there is no language barrier?
Because they will do it for 1/2 the cost.
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Old 07-30-2007, 12:28 PM   #227
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If open mind translates into assimilation NO THANKS!! Assimilate, gave up traditional ideals or mix them with euro-american ideals all you want. But when you try to say that this is a good idea for those of us that Zeke likes to call "backwards NDN's". well then you are doing us more harm then the whites who want us to do the same.

Also what is best for my children is NOT settling for less, are giving up part of who they are, this will only lead to a downfall & disentigration of our cultures. And I did not face the end of an army gun for that to happen.

Suzze
I absolutely agree. You can be progressive and still be traditional. Being traditional doesn't lessen your worth, in fact, if you ask me it increases it. Your heart and your values should always come before wealth and assimilation.
We cannot turn our back on our ancestors and what they taught us. I think what makes things hardest sometimes is that the modern mentality in the US is the opposite of traditional values....this incredible materialism and emptiness of the spirit that is rotting the youth from the inside out. Modern US "culture" is built on HAVING more and doing whatever it takes and stepping on whomever you must to get ahead. Traditional beliefs are opposite, how does that make them wrong? I believe we must save our children (our future) from forgetting who we are and what we believe. Unfortunetly some of us have been "tricked" into believing that to succeed in life we must give up tradition.....
On that note, who defines success?
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Old 07-30-2007, 03:01 PM   #228
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I absolutely agree. You can be progressive and still be traditional. Being traditional doesn't lessen your worth, in fact, if you ask me it increases it. Your heart and your values should always come before wealth and assimilation.
We cannot turn our back on our ancestors and what they taught us. I think what makes things hardest sometimes is that the modern mentality in the US is the opposite of traditional values....this incredible materialism and emptiness of the spirit that is rotting the youth from the inside out. Modern US "culture" is built on HAVING more and doing whatever it takes and stepping on whomever you must to get ahead. Traditional beliefs are opposite, how does that make them wrong? I believe we must save our children (our future) from forgetting who we are and what we believe. Unfortunetly some of us have been "tricked" into believing that to succeed in life we must give up tradition.....
On that note, who defines success?
agreed, in fact I believe the problem with American culture, infact euro-western culture in general is that it is non-culture, they have (with few exceptions) lost their sence of who they are (& I will include blacks in this statement). They have traded in their religions for a foreign religion (yep christianity is not their natural religion), their identity as ethnic groups to all blend together & they have nothing, that is why they do not understand people & cultures & refuse to give up all they have for thier non-culture. I also believe that this non-culture is the root of racism, a fear of what refuses to give up & join the non-culture.

Suzze
P.S. a quote so all my see this would again be appreciated
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Old 07-30-2007, 03:21 PM   #229
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agreed, in fact I believe the problem with American culture, infact euro-western culture in general is that it is non-culture, they have (with few exceptions) lost their sence of who they are (& I will include blacks in this statement). They have traded in their religions for a foreign religion (yep christianity is not their natural religion), their identity as ethnic groups to all blend together & they have nothing, that is why they do not understand people & cultures & refuse to give up all they have for thier non-culture. I also believe that this non-culture is the root of racism, a fear of what refuses to give up & join the non-culture.

Suzze
You know I got you ;)

It is very true for many cultures and African Americans are a great example. There are many that are doing what they can to get back to their original cultures and such, but a huge (and I fear increasing) number are internalizing what the media/society tells them they are supposed to be, expects them to be, and this destructive cycle is in the works and can only be stopped with education....a different kind of education. I think this is where a lot of natives get pulled into this cycle and then are labeled by many here as "wannabe blacks" many who live in the "hood" and breath that smog of mind control and white supremacy to the point where they think that is what they should be. Many races do the same thing its so unfortunate...sorry I guess I'm way off topic....returning....
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Old 07-30-2007, 04:15 PM   #230
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You know I got you ;)

It is very true for many cultures and African Americans are a great example. There are many that are doing what they can to get back to their original cultures and such, but a huge (and I fear increasing) number are internalizing what the media/society tells them they are supposed to be, expects them to be, and this destructive cycle is in the works and can only be stopped with education....a different kind of education.
Yes, a more traditional education that teaches humility, responsibility, self esteem and pride. The education our elders try to give to us. Not the "I want more" way of life.

Now don't twist that to say that we should'nt strive for more, but how much more and of what is what I'm talking about. Think about it... do you really want or do you really need a hot racing car or would a good running mini bus get you and your family where you are needed. And would it embarrass you to be seen in one and why? If TV and media did'nt tell you that Versace is better and more popular than Jacklyn Smith would you even care?

These so called finer things in life, most of them are just telling people that because they have more money, that their quality of like sucks to be them and if you can't afford it, then you are'nt good enough. That's what our kids are learning.




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I think this is where a lot of natives get pulled into this cycle and then are labeled by many here as "wannabe blacks" many who live in the "hood" and breath that smog of mind control and white supremacy to the point where they think that is what they should be. Many races do the same thing its so unfortunate...sorry I guess I'm way off topic....returning....
Our kids are learning that their life is'nt exciting and that they are nothing without the xbox and cable TV. They are learning that money is the end all beat all of existance and that their lives are nothing without it. That people with who have a comfy home with heat and clean water to drink and clothes on their back are'nt as good as those with mansions on the hill, bottled water and a closet full of designer or name brand labels.

They "value" these rich lifestyles above those that work hard to provide. They see these "hood" lifestyles as a way of feeling important and powerful when they don't have the money to feel better than the next person. And worse yet, their children will learn those same values.
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Old 07-30-2007, 04:27 PM   #231
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There is a lot to consider....what's most important? We all want the best for our families, our 'nation', our nations.
One point is that we need to be aware of what is happening in the big picture.
Being aware yes, but following in the rest of societies footsteps does'nt is'nt exactly the answer either.

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Illegal Aliens, who come here illegally, are taking away some of the things that should be going to us.
How are Illegal Aliens taking anything from the native people? If you want to go do a migrant workers job at a migrant worker's pay then go offer your services. Otherwise they are not taking away from indian health services, they are'nt taking what land we have left and they are'nt sneaking onto the reservations and hoping to blend in with the crowd.
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I hope that you are aware of the NAU and their intentions to allow Mexico to travel through our country with their trucks and drivers, both of which I assume are not up to standards here. This is not a good idea.
If Illegal aliens are given Amnesty, where does that leave us? I fear it means farther into the background of importance.
I do not like to hear words like whining...it is a big trigger for me, and I would imagine many others. I do not whine, nor do I think it is an appropriate response to anything said....it is just a trigger to bait...Please hear me and respect one another, after all, we are on the same side.
Illegal aliens is America's problem. And being that the topic here is what do you want whites to know about our people.. I guess you want white American's to know you sympathize since it was the white's that encroached on us? Is that where you are going with this?

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Dual Citizenship may be a blessing...I don't think you have to give up anything, but can gain much. I respect Wakopataki's wisdom, and know her personally. She is a great human being.
I love the land...the lakes and wildlife...I love our history... but I also am a realist and to get out of poverty is important. I do not want our babies to be fighting this same fight in 20 years, do you?
To get out of poverty IS important... but poverty defined as? And don't get me wrong in thinking that I'm saying there is'nt poverty on reservations...
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Old 07-30-2007, 04:34 PM   #232
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So, they have come up with the idea, that if an NDN born on the rez wants to be a citizen of the United States, that they will have to get permission to remain in the country, just like someone born in another country. If our Nations are desolved, and the Land goes back to the Whites, NDN's will have no country left to go to, but will still be illegal in the United States! The idea is to have NDN's stand in line like someone outside the country to come here legally and stay legally. It will be as if you have no rights as an American, born in this country, even though once recognized as Amercian, that status too would be removed. NDN's would literally be a race of people without a land to go back to.
This in their eyes, would once and for all conquer the NDN, leaving them nothing, and no longer consider them Americans, therefore being under no obligation to give any public assistance, housing, health care, because of their non citizen status. It's like pay back for those who believe that the Whites were justified in the killing of our people, and who have always maintained that the U.S. Government should never have made treaties with us in the first place. It would be the full and total loss of anything we have left to us now. This is the extreme many are seeking off the rez, and I hear it all of the time. What you have on the rez would no longer exist and you would be left in a country that you couldn't legally assimilate into, because of your illegal status.
This is ludicrous and would never pass. To believe this can be accomplished without world outcry..... America would'nt let other countries do this to their indigenous.... it's a bad dream and you bought it.

What will dissolve what we have is when indian nations become nothing more than corporations with special status and no more traditional governments or traditions. When we simply become a race without a culture. When we become Americans instead of Nations.
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Old 07-30-2007, 04:57 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
Yes, a more traditional education that teaches humility, responsibility, self esteem and pride. The education our elders try to give to us. Not the "I want more" way of life.

Now don't twist that to say that we should'nt strive for more, but how much more and of what is what I'm talking about. Think about it... do you really want or do you really need a hot racing car or would a good running mini bus get you and your family where you are needed. And would it embarrass you to be seen in one and why? If TV and media did'nt tell you that Versace is better and more popular than Jacklyn Smith would you even care?

These so called finer things in life, most of them are just telling people that because they have more money, that their quality of like sucks to be them and if you can't afford it, then you are'nt good enough. That's what our kids are learning.






Our kids are learning that their life is'nt exciting and that they are nothing without the xbox and cable TV. They are learning that money is the end all beat all of existance and that their lives are nothing without it. That people with who have a comfy home with heat and clean water to drink and clothes on their back are'nt as good as those with mansions on the hill, bottled water and a closet full of designer or name brand labels.

They "value" these rich lifestyles above those that work hard to provide. They see these "hood" lifestyles as a way of feeling important and powerful when they don't have the money to feel better than the next person. And worse yet, their children will learn those same values.
Exactly....couldnt have said that better myself.
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Old 07-30-2007, 05:11 PM   #234
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What will dissolve what we have is when indian nations become nothing more than corporations with special status and no more traditional governments or traditions. When we simply become a race without a culture. When we become Americans instead of Nations.
Then there is, already, an issue.

Race (quantum) is going away -- more and more -- every day. The ONLY thing to hold onto is culture, which is why there must be cultural definition of what it means to be an American Indian: before the Indian Police create enough "poor me" and "grow equals assimilist" fervor to make their short-sighted ideals seem viable to a potentially desperate Native populace.

"Nations?" Long since gone. Limited sovereiginity, get it? That battle is OVER. If it's limited, we're not sovereign nations.

There's about a billion things we can now do, but holding out for National recognition by the very folks who have limited it is seems short of a full deck.
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Old 07-30-2007, 05:24 PM   #235
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you know Zeke... for some it's limited sovereignty. It all depends on what you agreed to.

As for quantums.. each NATION decides that on their own and not every NATION has a blood quantum.
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Old 07-30-2007, 05:31 PM   #236
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you know Zeke... for some it's limited sovereignty. It all depends on what you agreed to.

As for quantums.. each NATION decides that on their own and not every NATION has a blood quantum.
Good points.

Query: do you truly imagine the Feds actually care what anyone agreed to?

Tribes define internal quantums and/or lineage. If it is recognized by no other bodies, that's a problem.
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Old 07-30-2007, 05:39 PM   #237
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Good points.

Query: do you truly imagine the Feds actually care what anyone agreed to?
THIS is exactly the problem....
This is OUR country they (the feds) don't care about anything but what interest them and what gets them more money and power. Does that mean its ok? Should we allow them to run over us? Haven't they done enough? We cannot let them get away with this over and over.

Zeke, you may have laid down a long time ago and let them do what they want to you so that you could get their paycheck, but I WILL NOT and don't suggest it for anyone else.

Please see my Quote at the bottom for my signature....I fully believe that and: "to ignore injustice is to allow it"

Ok stepping off the soapbox....
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Old 07-30-2007, 05:44 PM   #238
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Then there is, already, an issue.

Race (quantum) is going away -- more and more -- every day. The ONLY thing to hold onto is culture, which is why there must be cultural definition of what it means to be an American Indian: before the Indian Police create enough "poor me" and "grow equals assimilist" fervor to make their short-sighted ideals seem viable to a potentially desperate Native populace.

"Nations?" Long since gone. Limited sovereiginity, get it? That battle is OVER. If it's limited, we're not sovereign nations.

There's about a billion things we can now do, but holding out for National recognition by the very folks who have limited it is seems short of a full deck.
*sigh*, if this crap was being spewed by a white person, I'd pass it off as status quo, but from an NDN, it's disheartening. May your decendants forgive you, well never mind, with that attitude your decendants will probably be white, in which case they will thank you.

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Old 07-30-2007, 05:46 PM   #239
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How are Illegal Aliens taking anything from the native people? If you want to go do a migrant workers job at a migrant worker's pay then go offer your services. Otherwise they are not taking away from indian health services, they are'nt taking what land we have left and they are'nt sneaking onto the reservations and hoping to blend in with the crowd.

Let's get back to the topic. I want white people to know that when they hire these 'illegal' aliens from Mexico, they are taking away from the mouths of journeymen tradesmen. Those of us who are skilled or state certified in a trade. Why is it that businessmen will hire 'illegal' aliens when there is a number of Americans that can do the job. And there is no language barrier. I wonder how many 'billions would stay in this country if it weren't for greed.

[I]ONLY thing to hold onto is culture, which is why there must be cultural definition of what it means to be an American Indian: before the Indian Police create enough "poor me" and "grow equals assimilist" fervor to make their short-sighted ideals seem viable to a potentially desperate Native populace.[/]

Three quotes...two positions of reality...
best words used: Culture and Greed.

Thank you for making my point...Illegals do hurt us, Dad said it pretty clear...and Zeke, I agree that the culture of the people can live on...forever. It can be as it has always been, handed down through words and experience.
Thank you for your fine words of wisdom....
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Old 07-30-2007, 05:56 PM   #240
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THIS is exactly the problem....
This is OUR country they (the feds) don't care about anything but what interest them and what gets them more money and power. Does that mean its ok? Should we allow them to run over us? Haven't they done enough? We cannot let them get away with this over and over.
Then I recommend sucking it up and GROWING. Release the hate, shame, mark, stigma, et al, of being a people forced into such an ungainly position and try moving forward.

Unbelievable. You claim to understand what is at stake -- not even CLOSE, it appears -- but you will not accept that the "old way" got our asses kicked, traditionalism is being used as a crutch, the only people who (today) hold us back are us, and folks who cannot accept such reality seem closeted, delusional, backwards, faced with Natural Selection and are foolish detriments to our future existance.

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Zeke, you may have laid down a long time ago and let them do what they want to you so that you could get their paycheck, but I WILL NOT and don't suggest it for anyone else.
Oh my, you truly have NO IDEA. Seriously, whose swill have you been, willingly, taking down?

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Please see my Quote at the bottom for my signature....I fully believe that and: "to ignore injustice is to allow it"

Ok stepping off the soapbox....
Stay ON the soapbox, I don't mind: at least you appear to think. I just believe you're misguided. That's merely an opinion and shouldn't bother you, much.

As for your quote, well, "that guy's teachings, in such a situation, are much closer to what I espouse than what I have perused from others, here." Civil disobediance is NOT rabid, backward, militancy based in fear.

Last edited by Zeke; 07-30-2007 at 06:38 PM.. Reason: dumbass spelling and verb/subject agreement
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