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Old 07-31-2007, 12:01 AM   #281
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Ok, first I want to say that when writing this I haven't read the latest posts, just so you know. At this link you will find (if it works) one news story that has been published in several news sources, one article that needs to be considered about how the reservations are being impacted by illegal immigration. Further did you know that if an illegal dies on the rez, that the mandatory autopsy required to determine cause of death comes out of tribal funding? I don't agree with that especially when the Nations are struggling to have enough money to help the members of that Nation. Further we all know how drugs are destroying our own and this article gives some incite as to what is happening.
http://www.desertinvasion.us/articles/art2006aug16.html
Blackbear, with all due respect, I didn't "buy" into the bad dream, but simply, put out the current political climate and the possible consequences to the indigenous of this country. We all know that if it gains momentum, it also takes time to undo, if any of it goes into effect. It is blatant racism, pure and simple, but this is what is being said on political boards across this country by both Dems. and Republicans and many in between. I listed this one site
http://mothersagainstillegalaliens.org that mentions that children born on the rez to tribal members are illegal citizens. Up here in Washington state, I and others are confronted all of the time, by Whites who consider anyone of Native heritage to be just as illegal as a Mexican who crosses the border illegally. This is already affecting some of us off the rez, as the problem increases. This does impact our children now. I think sometimes that those of us that live off the rez, see what's coming down the pike sooner than our counterparts, which gives all of us the advantage of forsight.
Skillet, the other links I had on this no longer work/exist, but I will try to find others.
Like I also said before, I believe that it's dead wrong to ever think that I am better than someone living on the Rez. I think that the guardians of our land and heritage that live there are the best in the world. I also know that those of us that work for the same land and heritage off the rez are also the best in the world.
Whoever works to guard and protect what is precious to all of us, is a blessing no matter their location.
Blessings and peace to all!

l
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Old 07-31-2007, 12:54 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Wahishta View Post
How are Illegal Aliens taking anything from the native people? If you want to go do a migrant workers job at a migrant worker's pay then go offer your services. Otherwise they are not taking away from indian health services, they are'nt taking what land we have left and they are'nt sneaking onto the reservations and hoping to blend in with the crowd.

Let's get back to the topic. I want white people to know that when they hire these 'illegal' aliens from Mexico, they are taking away from the mouths of journeymen tradesmen. Those of us who are skilled or state certified in a trade. Why is it that businessmen will hire 'illegal' aliens when there is a number of Americans that can do the job. And there is no language barrier. I wonder how many 'billions would stay in this country if it weren't for greed.

[i]ONLY thing to hold onto is culture, which is why there must be cultural definition of what it means to be an American Indian: before the Indian Police create enough "poor me" and "grow equals assimilist" fervor to make their short-sighted ideals seem viable to a potentially desperate Native populace.[/]

Three quotes...two positions of reality...
best words used: Culture and Greed.

Thank you for making my point...Illegals do hurt us, Dad said it pretty clear...and Zeke, I agree that the culture of the people can live on...forever. It can be as it has always been, handed down through words and experience.
Thank you for your fine words of wisdom....
If you would have read the meaning of what I wrote, you would have understood that I didn't write to say indigenous people of this continent, but from another country, hurt us. My words, if read correctly, would have said to you, the greed of the anglo society is what has everybody's panties in a bunch right now. If a fine were imposed on every every business or contractor who hired illegal aliens, who would suffer the most? The illegal alien, who has been poor all their life and is trying to live a decent life..or the greedy American businessperson, who sees the illegal alien as a tool to make MORE money?

Cortez, a spaniard, thus, a european, in his conquering of Tenochtitlan, was quoted as saying, "We have a disease of the heart...that can only be cured by gold". To assimilate, to lose the very blood of our ancestors, to lose the culture and traditions of that are taught to us by the ones who have gone on before us, would cause us to be exactly as the europeans. In my lifetime, in my children's and granchildren's lifetime, I wish assimilation does not happen. I like me how I am.
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Old 07-31-2007, 01:03 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Wahishta View Post
*sigh*, if this crap was being spewed by a white person, I'd pass it off as status quo, but from an NDN, it's disheartening. May your decendants forgive you, well never mind, with that attitude your decendants will probably be white, in which case they will thank you.

Suzze


I would call this racist...I've been called a racist because I want to protect ALL Americans, including you, from Illegals. They are not the same as you....Culture...different...
Why can't you see that we all really want the same things?
There are no nations left...just tribes...The whites took care of that. They killed most of my Nation a long time ago. I know it's not what you want to hear, but it is true...Native Americans are a small part of this country...But a big part of my world...
I spend a lot of time in Joseph, OR...and know other tribe members of the Lakota. As a Blackfoot, we were enemies, but now we are supporting each other and have found a common ground.
Our relationship is not about beating each other...but about uniting...and becoming one with the Great Spirit of us all.
Help me out here. Why would two bands from the same tribe be enemies? Wasicu, or whatever you call yourself, you've done too many drugs in your lifetime.
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Old 07-31-2007, 01:10 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Wahishta View Post
I agree the first step to freedom is accountability...not blame. I also agree, the rocky road is pretty darn tough to climb, since I have felt the arrows of sething resentment here. It will not stop me from trying to spread truth, or to connect with those who can hear and see that the future will take more work than sitting in the dust.
Truth? I who's eyes?

I bet you come from a lineage of men who have bald heads and grow beards.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

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Old 07-31-2007, 01:20 AM   #285
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It is not a racist comment, it is an opinion. I don't like Mexico because,
the sands to hot to walk on so you can't get to the water..
the water is not drinkable...
there is filth that I have not seen anywhere but there...
the food is questionable, unless it's fruit...
it's too hot..
the laws are not fair...
Tiajuana exists and thrives..
the government is corrupt...
the police are corrupt...
other than that, it's probably beautiful in some places, but I don't like it because I don't like it. I would prefer to go north and visit Canada, where it's cooler...
the people are friendly,
the scenery is wonderful,
there are no poisonous snakes
there are no thorny bushes
it's quiet for the most part
and I lived there for almost 4 years.

I am not a racist
Then you must have never stepped into a place down in Mexico where there were NO blonde hair and blue-eyed people. You must have never walked down a dirt path a 1/4 mile to hear the drum and see the dance in the middle of the night. You must have never taken the time to see the weatherbeaten faces of the ancient ones as they dressed in the traditions handed down long before the european inquisition.

What you don't like is yourself because you will NEVER have any of that.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

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Old 07-31-2007, 01:24 AM   #286
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Before I forget, the full article about the Tohono Rez is a link at the bottom of the article I listed. These are Native American Law enforcement officers protecting the Rez, from those who would do the Nation harm. In every walk of life there are criminals and when a criminal sees an opportunity, they will take it. Many that come here illegally do not have the same reguard for the Natives of this country as many do here, for them. What's written in this article (and more can be easily found,) our Nations are affected, and are being taken advantage of. When a struggling Nation is forced to hand back Tribal funding, to take care of what is listed in this aritcle, the Federal Gov. is winning. They say that since it happens on the Rez, then the Nation is respondsible to cover the cost. So what else is new? This is a perfect example of punishing NDN's because "they" fail to protect our borders as their jobs mandate.
I want Whites to know that this is yet another excuse to take away from impoverished NDN's what is rightfully theirs, for failing to do their jobs! I want them to know that this funding will not go to education, health care, and housing etc. and will continue to harm even the children, by not providing them with the necessities of life. That the strength of the U.S. government over the NDN is to keep them impoverished and down.
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Old 07-31-2007, 01:40 AM   #287
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Truth? I who's eyes?

I bet you come from a lineage of men who have bald heads and grow beards.

Suzze
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Old 07-31-2007, 01:50 AM   #288
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Suzze
Thank you
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Old 07-31-2007, 01:55 AM   #289
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Before I forget, the full article about the Tohono Rez is a link at the bottom of the article I listed. These are Native American Law enforcement officers protecting the Rez, from those who would do the Nation harm. In every walk of life there are criminals and when a criminal sees an opportunity, they will take it. Many that come here illegally do not have the same reguard for the Natives of this country as many do here, for them. What's written in this article (and more can be easily found,) our Nations are affected, and are being taken advantage of. When a struggling Nation is forced to hand back Tribal funding, to take care of what is listed in this aritcle, the Federal Gov. is winning. They say that since it happens on the Rez, then the Nation is respondsible to cover the cost. So what else is new? This is a perfect example of punishing NDN's because "they" fail to protect our borders as their jobs mandate.
I want Whites to know that this is yet another excuse to take away from impoverished NDN's what is rightfully theirs, for failing to do their jobs! I want them to know that this funding will not go to education, health care, and housing etc. and will continue to harm even the children, by not providing them with the necessities of life. That the strength of the U.S. government over the NDN is to keep them impoverished and down.
Between you & Wahishta we don't need white supremists. You 2 love them whites & hate browns so much that I would like to suggest the Michael Jackson makeover, I gaurentee you'll enjoy looking in the mirror more. Have you ever seen an NDN from south of the boarder? have you not noticed that they are the same as us? Or are the 2 of you blinded by the white propaganda machine?

I have heard this spew before, it came from the mouths of 6 guys carring their white man's bible, eventually these guys beat the crap out of me, I woke up a week later. My point is, we don't need this garbage from you, we've heard enough of it from white skinned racists.

The people who teach you these ideals you have accepted, do you think they except you? Do you realize that you are just a prop, a sample of what can be done with our people? They don't like you any more then they like us. They want you assimilated, so your children will marry white & breed out, just as long as it's not thier children helping you breed out. That was always the plan. It was the plan when they began to christianize us. It was the plan when they sent our people to residential schools, it was the plan when they adopted the stolen children into non-NDN homes. It was the plan when they relocated us to the cities. It is still the plan, & you are the new agents of that plan. WAKE UP PEOPLE.

Suzze
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Old 07-31-2007, 02:24 AM   #290
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What the hell are you talking about Suzze? Heard what before? How dare you assume you know a damn thing about me! What is in dispute Suzze? Show me where the Tohono rez isn't being affected the way the article describes and I will apologize. Show me where they aren't losing funding to the problem, of illegals. Is it OK that, that Nation has to endure what they are enduring? But you can't! I have said absoulety nothing to get attacked for. I have always given you respect as well as those living a traditional life on the rez. I deserve the same respect, living off the rez. My grandparents were the first to leave, like I had any choice as a child where I live, no different than you! So knock of the the insults, because I am a strong enough woman to love and live my heritage anywhere I may find myself! Remember I started this thread and until others posted I was OK in the eyes of everyone here. You do owe me an apology although I don't think I will get one anytime soon! Something I learned growing up is to ask someone what they believe and think before assuming I know! Try it sometime!
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Old 07-31-2007, 03:21 AM   #291
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Just a little info for ya. I was raised in Cali. I was considered to be Hispanic, because NO ONE but a few had any idea that NDN's existed. Everyone in my life outside my home was Hispanic. I could walk in Hispanic neighborhoods where Whites couldn't. I grew up with gangs and had protection although I wasn't a gang member. I grew up real fast...had to! Hate brown skin? I have caught the hate from Whites my whole life, so have my children. I really believe that you have successfully pushed everyone of my buttons. Did you know Suzzie that American Hispanics hate what they call Border Brothers or illegals? Did you know that the opposite is true as well? "You" do not have my experiences and I am a good 20 yrs. older than you! When my mom was raised she was thought to be Italian and at times I was called that. I couldn't braid my hair, I couldn't do many things because of racism in Cali, against Hispanics and NDN's! I lived on the rez in my twenties for a while. Yeah, to escape the rampant racisim where my grandparents lived in Oklahoma, they moved to Cali. where they thought it would be better. It wasn't! When my oldest daughter was a new born, I was at a Denny's late one night as my husband had to work late and we were hungry. My husband went to pay the bill and as I passed a table of two White men and one White woman, one of the men grabbed my arm and said in a messed up Mexican accent, "Hey lady, I'll buy dat baby for a nickle!" So I pulled free of him and told him," no, but my brother will cut your heart out for a nickle!" When I said that, the Lady got scared and told them to stop because they thought my husband was that brother!
You so don't know me or anything about me or where I come from or who I have loved in my life. When I visit my mom in Cali, its a barrio I go to! Brown skin everywhere! Even the brown skinned in this world know that Brown skinned people commit crimes too! What is happening on the Tohono Rez is wrong and I don't give a friggen care what race is doing it! It's wrong! It's wrong, It's wrong!
Now I have brown skin telling me off cause she thinks she knows me or my heart or my people! Unbelievable!
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:36 AM   #292
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Let me list the reasons why I moved to Washington state from Cali.

Racist schools and comments, threats to my children by Whites.

While living in a home that my husband and I bought before he died, we had a Hispanic neighbor who was an older woman and many other Hispanics all around us. It was wonderful! But after the first yr. My children could no longer go outside and play, they couldn't walk the neighborhood, and couldn't go see their friends any longer. Home became a prison for all of us.
That's because, the nice Hispanic lady next door was kicked out by the White Landlord who in turn, turned the house into a weigh station for Illegals. An American coyote, who charged everyone who stayed there!No, they weren't all Mexicans either. They came from many countries and spoke many languages. There were no less than 15 people in the two bedroom house and many times up to 30 at one time.
They ran a brothel with a line of men out front, they made their own alcohol, to the point it filled the air, they drank all day and night, and would get on our roof at night trying to break in or dance drunk, they stole everything that wasn't nailed down, broke our garage trying to break in, strange men tried to get my daughters who were quite young at the time, they sought out the kids to scare them, they came over and through our fence to show us that they could, to intimidate us, becasue when my husband died it was just me and the kids. There was gun fire at random times and we had to sit on the floor sometimes so as not to get shot. This was not a ghetto or barrio either.
They were selling children...young girls, the last one being 12 for $50.00. They violently beat their women,They ran and sold narcotics from the house etc. See it would take the Sheriffs office a fair amount of time to respond because of where we were located. So if they came it would all be cleaned up by the time they arrived. Right before moving my daughter went to get something out of the car and one of men exposed himself to her. I did get him arrested, but he took flight, so this perv is out there somewhere in the wind. My house has been for sale for two yrs. now. Whose gonna buy it? My brown skin counted for nothing, especially being a woman.

I fully know the difference between people who are good people wanting to work and do right by their families, and those above. Hundreds went through the house next door, most of which were not good people. It's not about the color of the skin, it's about helping the good people who immigrate here and not allowing what destroyed our neighborhood.
So this is not White propaganda to me and the Hispanics in my neighborhood were victimized too. Brown skin does not automatically make you good nor does it make you evil.
I want one of you to tell me that you would put your children through what we lived through and be happy about it, because of the brown pigment in their skin.
Racist? I am all for legal immigration, because it sorts out the good from the bad. There is a difference, and the tears I cryed and the worry that kept me up at night to watch over my kids was endless. This is happening all over the country and in countless neighborhoods. Where there is money to be made, there will always be these kind of people. It's not about hating Mexicans or brown skin, it's about in my case protecting my family and neighborhood.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:13 AM   #293
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Warning

This is a warning.

I am going to allow this thread to continue, but only if everyone participating keeps the topic on the level of a discussion.

Please do not resort to name calling or bashing the character of individuals or groups.

Thank you for your cooperation.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:15 AM   #294
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I want Whites to know that this is yet another excuse to take away from impoverished NDN's what is rightfully theirs, for failing to do their jobs! I want them to know that this funding will not go to education, health care, and housing etc. and will continue to harm even the children, by not providing them with the necessities of life. That the strength of the U.S. government over the NDN is to keep them impoverished and down.
This is why I say illegal immigrants is America's problem. But I stand corrected in saying that they don't impact the reservations. Thank you for that information. But I did'tn see on the MAIA website anything about native americans... can you give me a direct link?

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Up here in Washington state, I and others are confronted all of the time, by Whites who consider anyone of Native heritage to be just as illegal as a Mexican who crosses the border illegally.
I find this interesting... and can't help but think that they are acknowledging native sovereignty in doing so. That's something they probably have'nt even considered. In NY .. we fight for the state to recognize that sovereignty, battle after battle because they'd like to believe we are no more than Americans and contrary to someone here's belief... not all native nations were "conquered" by Americans so that battle was not lost to us. They try to get us to collect taxes from their own people from us and it's not just gas and cigarettes they want us to tax them on, but our own products such as beadwork and crafts. One govenor gives up the fight because he realizes it's wrong and the next one up continues it. We have groups formed especially to go against us at every turn. And when we do have endeavors to pull ourselves out of poverty and become self sufficient, these groups try to pull us down and have our very rights through treaties denied to us. So I just find it interesting that while my entire experience is whites trying to assimilate us and deny us our existance as people of nations, you've experienced those that acknowledge it and want to claim you illegal aliens off the rez.
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:25 AM   #295
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I lived in Kuwait and have a different world view than you. ....
And you are surprised that people tend to think you are a racist for your comments?

I'm not knocking on you... but world view is a huge reason why natives and non natives don't get along... I'm rather worldly myself and love meeting people from other places and other cultures... some I'm fascinated with, some I don't care for but all in all, it made me realize that what's best for us is what we've had all along.
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:31 AM   #296
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"Up here in Washington state, I and others are confronted all of the time, by Whites who consider anyone of Native heritage to be just as illegal as a Mexican who crosses the border illegally."

I find this very interesting.I live in washington state and have for about ten years now and never once in all those years have i had any problem or comment from anyone.I havent ever had anyone say i was an illegal.I have very long hair and dont hide the fact that im indian.The casinos here provide not only jobs for the surrounding communties (and pay better than most jobs in the areas) but also provide services for those communities(fire,ambulance etc).The only thing i personally have seen were bumperstickers on the Olympic peninsula that were against treaty hunting and fishing rights.
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:35 AM   #297
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This is a warning.

I am going to allow this thread to continue, but only if everyone participating keeps the topic on the level of a discussion.

Please do not resort to name calling or bashing the character of individuals or groups.

Thank you for your cooperation.
Understood.I do want to ask why are some allowed free reign to make any and all comments they wish and are not help accountable while others are?
If someone makes racial comments I think we as PEOPLE have a responsibility to point that out,sometimes people dont realize their comments are seen as racist.
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:37 AM   #298
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To assimilate, to lose the very blood of our ancestors, to lose the culture and traditions of that are taught to us by the ones who have gone on before us, would cause us to be exactly as the europeans. In my lifetime, in my children's and granchildren's lifetime, I wish assimilation does not happen. I like me how I am.
well said JD
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:48 AM   #299
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The illegal issue is one of simple economics really,supply and demand.If american business didnt hire illegal workers then hopping the border wouldnt be issue.if people are so concerned about illegals,the first place things should be done is at the very border.It is a known fact that illegal smugglers pay off border and customs people regularly.Right before 911,there was an investigative reporter from houston who had been doing a series of smuggling illegals across the border.He followed a group from start to [email protected] weeks after 911,the reporter alnong with a camera crew and the smuggler and 12 illegals went across the border from mexico into texas at brownsville.The van they traveled in had tinted windows,suspicious at any border i would think.There were clearly 4 people visible to the border guard including a camera man with those bright camera lights shining in the guards face.The guard asked the driver(also the smuggler) if there was any one else in the van besides him(with 3 other people clearly visible) - the driver replied "no" and the guard waved them through with out one other question.This was 2 weeks AFTER 911 when security was suppossed to be at its height.
Using the same arguements that those opposed to immigration use,perhaps the casino tribes should start investing in boats and barges and we can send ALL the immigrants in america back to where they came from.
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:51 AM   #300
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Of course, to fit within the guidelines of this morning's warning, the standard disclaimer of this statement as being neither bashing, nor name-calling, applies. It merely applies as an observation. Moving on...

Here's the way I see it: if you live in a house, drive a car to work -- if you work -- have ever eaten at McDonald's and/or go to an actual Doctor when you are ill, you are not a hardcore traditionalist.

In this thread, and others, the word "traditionalism" is being used as a shield, by those UNWILLING TO HAVE a worldview, as they prefer their closet.

So, okay, that’s their right, to a degree.

But those who use it as a shield (many, many, do not, including in this thread), akin to Ignore List Lemmings, beg a question: Are they unwilling, or cognitively unable, to approach themselves with any semblance of true analysis?

We must answer that for ourselves, as they have proven such is beyond them. It is sort of like trying to teach a cat to juggle: they can bat the objects around and, semi-cutely, pretend they’re doing something but, in the end, they are barely amusing. (You don’t even have to watch to know, which is why the Ignore List is such a great feature.)

The other stuff here is quite thought provoking.

The vast majority of folk in this thread appear to have no issues with analysis: I look forward to their posts. :)

Last edited by Blackbear; 07-31-2007 at 01:59 PM.. Reason: some comments were unnecessary and overboard
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