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Old 07-31-2007, 11:04 AM   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Of course, to fit within the guidelines of this morning's warning, the standard disclaimer of this statement as being neither bashing, nor name-calling, applies. It merely applies as an observation. Moving on...

Here's the way I see it: if you live in a house, drive a car to work -- if you work -- have ever eaten at McDonald's and/or go to an actual Doctor when you are ill, [b]you are not a hardcore traditionalist.[/b

In this thread, and others, the word "traditionalism" is being used as a shield, by those UNWILLING TO HAVE a worldview, as they prefer their closet.

So, okay, that’s their right, to a degree.

But those who use it as a shield (many, many, do not, including in this thread), akin to Ignore List Lemmings, beg a question: Are they unwilling, or cognitively unable, to approach themselves with any semblance of true analysis?

We must answer that for ourselves, as they have proven such is beyond them. It is sort of like trying to teach a cat to juggle: they can bat the objects around and, semi-cutely, pretend they’re doing something but, in the end, they are barely amusing. (You don’t even have to watch to know, which is why the Ignore List is such a great feature.)

The other stuff here is quite thought provoking.

The vast majority of folk in this thread appear to have no issues with analysis: I look forward to their posts. :)
nice to see zeke can comprehend Historians warning.

One has to wonder,if we are on zekes self righteous ignore list and we are not a treat to him,then why does he stll comment on what we are saying(or thinks we are saying LOL)? I thought ignore meant ignore!!! Must be those assimilation insecurites or simple paranoia

Last edited by Blackbear; 07-31-2007 at 02:03 PM.. Reason: edited quote because I edited the original post
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Old 07-31-2007, 11:13 AM   #302
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It interesting that with all the talk of illegal aliens from south of the border,there is not mention here or any of the websites posted about illegal immigration issues,about illegal aliens from Asia.
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Old 07-31-2007, 12:02 PM   #303
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>
> > THE DONKEY STORY
> >
> > One day a farmer's donkey fell down into a
> > well. The animal cried piteously for hours as
> > the farmer tried to figure out what to do.
> >
> > Finally, he decided the animal was old, and the
> > well needed to be covered up anyway;
> > it just wasn't worth it to retrieve the donkey.
> >
> > He invited all his neighbors to come over and
> > help him. They all grabbed a shovel and began
> > to shovel dirt into the well. At first, the
> > donkey realized what was happening and cried horribly.
> > Then, to everyone's amazement he quieted down.
> >
> > A few shovel loads later, the farmer finally
> > looked down the well. He was astonished at what
> > he saw. With each shovel of dirt that hit his
> > back, the donkey was doing something amazing.
> > He would shake it off and take a step up.
> >
> > As the farmer's neighbors continued to shovel
> > dirt on top of the animal, he would shake it
> > off and take a step up.
> >
> > Pretty soon, everyone was amazed as the donkey
> > stepped up over the edge of the well and
> > happily trotted off!
> >
> > Life is going to shovel dirt on you, all kinds
> > of dirt. The trick to getting out of the well
> > is to shake it off and take a step up. Each of
> > our troubles is a stepping stone. We can get out
> > of the deepest wells just by not stopping,
> > never giving up! Shake it off and take a step up.
> >
> > Remember the five simple rules to be happy:
> >
> > Free your heart from hatred - Forgive.
> >
> > Free your mind from worries - Most never happen.
> >
> > Live simply and appreciate what you have.
> >
> > Give more.
> >
> > Expect less
> >
> >
> > NOW ...........
> >
> > Enough of that crap . . The donkey later came back,
> > and bit the farmer who had tried to bury him.
> > The gash from the bite got infected and
> > the farmer eventually died in agony from septic shock.
> >
> >
> > MORAL FROM TODAY'S LESSON:
> >
> > When you do something wrong, and try to cover
> > your ***, it always comes back to bite you.
> >
> > You have two choices..smile and close this page,
> > or pass this along to someone else to spread the fun
> >
hi yall, lol i sorry that some feel pain,im sorry that i look white
im glad i love ,and im glad at times im the only blue eye indian ppl see.

> >
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Old 07-31-2007, 12:31 PM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
The question is..
Do you support traditional people, or do you, as your posts suggest, wish we would all assimilate? Do you support all NDN's, even those south of the US boarder? or only the ones who stay on the other side of the boarder, a boarder created by the US, not by our people. Do you believe that all NDN's in the Americas should stand together to maintain our traditions, our lands & the lives of our people? Or do you ignore the deaths of our people at the hands of the governments of the America's? (And yes I mean the deaths of today, not just those hundreds of years ago). Do you honor the Warriors? Or do you side with the police & the governments who stand against us? My best friend recieved a letter in the mail today, her husband is being sued (along with others) for occupying land that is in treaty negotiation, land that is being mined for uranium (same old fight eh guys) Are they scared? You bet, but this is what WE do for our children. Am I scared? you bet but I will not be telling my husband to stay home. It's not my people's land, it's not his people's land, it's Algonquin land, but we all stand together. We laugh together. Yep we laugh about it. We were worried about who may get hurt, we never though someone would try to get a bunch of money out of some poor *** NDN's!

Suzze

Ah that's the way it should be damnit! Right on
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Old 07-31-2007, 12:58 PM   #305
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[QUOTE=Wahishta;949553][I][COLOR="RoyalBlue"]
The world is moving....people are changing, and not all of it is good...The ACLU is trying once more to kill God. QUOTE]

What god? Who's god? Because Christianity is not allowed to be shoved down our children's throats with the government's help anymore that means your god is dead?? If that's all it takes to kill your faith or your god then I guess he's not much of an all powerful god now is he? No one in the ACLU is trying to "kill God" as you say. They are simply doing the right thing by allowing people to have their own beliefs. Because I do not believe in Christianity does not make me "godless" I have a very strong relationship with The Creator and no one can deny me that. If you want to pray for Jesus to "save" you then fine, that's great if it works for you......but it does not mean that your belief is necessarily "right"
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Old 07-31-2007, 01:06 PM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
Oh I may not like Zeke, But I wouldn't but him in the same camp as Wahishta. He may have an awful view of traditional NDN's but Wahishta has bashed nearly every group except whites.

Oh And Wahishta, don't bother comming to Canada with your anti Mexican views, the NDN's up here like their brothers in Central & South America, I know a few Mohawks who would through you & your ideas back across the boarder, starting with my Mom in law.

Suzze
Look ZEKE!!!! Suzze wanted you to see she said something positive bout you
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Old 07-31-2007, 01:45 PM   #307
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"Here's the way I see it: if you live in a house, drive a car to work -- if you work -- have ever eaten at McDonald's and/or go to an actual Doctor when you are ill, you are not a hardcore traditionalist. (Do you still defecate in the woods?)"

Dont y'all love being defined by zeke?????
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Old 07-31-2007, 02:06 PM   #308
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my opinion: You don't have to SH*T in the woods to be a traditionalist, which alot of ndns are not and you can tell who is and who is not. this was in 2005, only 2 years ago,

"Today, across the United States, the Kiowa number approximately 12,000 and are governed by the Kiowa Indian Council. They are a vibrant, active people who maintain many long-held traditions while participating fully in modern 21 st century life!!"....

wooohooo..."GO KIOWA'S!!"

how can one person or the government take that away?? talk of assimilation or the act of...

all I can say is TRY!!

Last edited by kiowakat; 07-31-2007 at 02:09 PM..
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Old 07-31-2007, 02:11 PM   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiowakat View Post
my opinion: You don't have to SH*T in the woods to be a traditionalist, which alot of ndns are not and you can tell who is and who is not. this was in 2005, only 2 years ago,

"Today, across the United States, the Kiowa number approximately 12,000 and are governed by the Kiowa Indian Council. They are a vibrant, active people who maintain many long-held traditions while participating fully in modern 21 st century life!!"....

wooohooo..."GO KIOWA'S!!"

how can one person or the government take that away?? talk of assimulation or the act of...

all I can say is TRY!!



i missed this post before:
Originally Posted by Wahishta
It is not a racist comment, it is an opinion. I don't like Mexico because,
the sands to hot to walk on so you can't get to the water..
the water is not drinkable...
there is filth that I have not seen anywhere but there...
the food is questionable, unless it's fruit...
it's too hot..
the laws are not fair...
Tiajuana exists and thrives..
the government is corrupt...
the police are corrupt...



sounds alot like parts of the united states these days....how many cases of food contamnination were there here in the US last year alone? most of the water here in the us is unfit to swim in let alone drink.
its hot everywhere now,2006 was the hottest year on record world-wide.
laws here are not fair,the govt is corrupt as are the police.
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Old 07-31-2007, 02:22 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke
Of course, to fit within the guidelines of this morning's warning, the standard disclaimer of this statement as being neither bashing, nor name-calling, applies. It merely applies as an observation. Moving on...
Whatever... you'll see i edited your post for the bashing done before the disclaimer.

Quote:
Here's the way I see it: if you live in a house, drive a car to work -- if you work -- have ever eaten at McDonald's and/or go to an actual Doctor when you are ill, [b]you are not a hardcore traditionalist.[/b
Ok I've seen people make the mistake of using this as their argument before and you are supposed to be the smart one here? Traditional values and ideals has nothing to do with working a job, driving a car or seeing a doctor for western medicine. That's like all the others saying, you can't be traditional because you own a computer and use it. Leave the inanimate out of the picture because what we are discussing here is more about how we view life and it's quality.

Quote:
In this thread, and others, the word "traditionalism" is being used as a shield, by those UNWILLING TO HAVE a worldview, as they prefer their closet.
No, see this is your shield. To say, " Hi, I have an education and feel that I got all the answers because I don't want to live a certain way, so I'm going to bash my own kind for being happy as they are because it disgusts me."

Dude I know plenty of highly educated world travelled, open minded natives who don't see things the way you do. And it's not about keeping the native down and poor, or an excuse to be lazy... it's about about what you value in life.

Quote:
So, okay, that’s their right, to a degree.
Even if they are... it's their right regardless as it is your right to spout off the things you are. Not to a degree.. just their right.

Quote:
But those who use it as a shield (many, many, do not, including in this thread), akin to Ignore List Lemmings, beg a question: Are they unwilling, or cognitively unable, to approach themselves with any semblance of true analysis?

We must answer that for ourselves, as they have proven such is beyond them. It is sort of like trying to teach a cat to juggle: they can bat the objects around and, semi-cutely, pretend they’re doing something but, in the end, they are barely amusing. (You don’t even have to watch to know, which is why the Ignore List is such a great feature.)
The same could be said about your ideals as well. Oh and I think the have.....


Quote:
The other stuff here is quite thought provoking.

The vast majority of folk in this thread appear to have no issues with analysis: I look forward to their posts. :)
I think what most people are having a problem with you is the way your approach these issues. You're smug, and arrogant and tend to talk down to people you don't even know. You come in already in a defensive manner and then proceed to offend. If you want people to understand why you see things the way you do, especially native people, then you need to start debating instead of harranging and telling everyone they are stupid and closed minded because they do not agree with you.
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Old 07-31-2007, 02:24 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Zeke

Here's the way I see it: if you live in a house, drive a car to work -- if you work -- have ever eaten at McDonald's and/or go to an actual Doctor when you are ill, [b]you are not a hardcore traditionalist.[/b


awwwwwwwwwww no more happy meals?????
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Old 07-31-2007, 02:41 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitewave View Post
Look ZEKE!!!! Suzze wanted you to see she said something positive bout you
Amazing!!! :)

I don't dislike Suzze, I just disagree with her. A lot.
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Old 07-31-2007, 04:35 PM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakopataki View Post
What the hell are you talking about Suzze? Heard what before? How dare you assume you know a damn thing about me! What is in dispute Suzze? Show me where the Tohono rez isn't being affected the way the article describes and I will apologize. Show me where they aren't losing funding to the problem, of illegals. Is it OK that, that Nation has to endure what they are enduring? But you can't! I have said absoulety nothing to get attacked for. I have always given you respect as well as those living a traditional life on the rez. I deserve the same respect, living off the rez. My grandparents were the first to leave, like I had any choice as a child where I live, no different than you! So knock of the the insults, because I am a strong enough woman to love and live my heritage anywhere I may find myself! Remember I started this thread and until others posted I was OK in the eyes of everyone here. You do owe me an apology although I don't think I will get one anytime soon! Something I learned growing up is to ask someone what they believe and think before assuming I know! Try it sometime!
Ok, I was very harsh & angry last night reading all the anti-illegal sentiment. The only happy part of my childhood was living with a family where the Dad came into the country illegaly with his parents friends. His parents sent him with their friends to save him from the brutal slaughters their people were suffering. I just was out of patience with more anti-illegal comments. But this apology extends only to you, providing I miss-understood & your not against these people who are trying to survive & do whats best for their kids.

Suzze
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Old 07-31-2007, 04:52 PM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
Even if they are... it's their right regardless as it is your right to spout off the things you are. Not to a degree.. just their right.
Absolutely, inherently WRONG. When their ideals -- and the ongoing, ignorant, espousing of such to political masses who create doctrine -- formulate actions that are harmful, their "right" ends. Such would be NOW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
I think what most people are having a problem with you is the way your approach these issues. You're smug, and arrogant and tend to talk down to people you don't even know.
I speak in an educated manner, not for effect, but because that is who I am. Their -- and YOUR -- interpretation is not MY problem. Take that as you will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
You come in already in a defensive manner and then proceed to offend. If you want people to understand why you see things the way you do, especially native people, then you need to start debating instead of harranging and telling everyone they are stupid and closed minded because they do not agree with you.
Not the least bit defensive.

And I have been debating. The fact that you, and some others, have no effective retort save creation of an intellectually baseless shield under the banner of "traditionalism" (as defined and referenced merely for emotional impact and not for use with efficacy) is, again, not my issue.

Such folk are closed minded for no reason beyond an inability to see beyond the end of their -- apparently, terribly short -- noses.

Further, the "edit" was weak, groundless and ineffectual. Nothing ill was stated related to anyone beyond their misguided thoughts. I recommend deeper analysis.

The prior portion of your statement is couched in complete relativity, is not objective, and is baseless. "Move along..."

Last edited by Zeke; 07-31-2007 at 04:57 PM..
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Old 07-31-2007, 04:52 PM   #315
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Amazing!!! :)

I don't dislike Suzze, I just disagree with her. A lot.
& I just disagree with Zeke because he is wrong

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Old 07-31-2007, 05:00 PM   #316
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& I just disagree with Zeke because he is wrong

Suzze
hehehehe.... I concur
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:02 PM   #317
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hehehehe.... I concur
Disagreement, vehemently, abounds. From multiple fronts.
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Old 07-31-2007, 06:13 PM   #318
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Absolutely, inherently WRONG. When their ideals -- and the ongoing, ignorant, espousing of such to political masses who create doctrine -- formulate actions that are harmful, their "right" ends. Such would be NOW.



I speak in an educated manner, not for effect, but because that is who I am. Their -- and YOUR -- interpretation is not MY problem. Take that as you will.



Not the least bit defensive.

And I have been debating. The fact that you, and some others, have no effective retort save creation of an intellectually baseless shield under the banner of "traditionalism" (as defined and referenced merely for emotional impact and not for use with efficacy) is, again, not my issue.

Such folk are closed minded for no reason beyond an inability to see beyond the end of their -- apparently, terribly short -- noses.

Further, the "edit" was weak, groundless and ineffectual. Nothing ill was stated related to anyone beyond their misguided thoughts. I recommend deeper analysis.

The prior portion of your statement is couched in complete relativity, is not objective, and is baseless. "Move along..."
This gets funnier and funnier..."When their ideals -- and the ongoing, ignorant, espousing of such to political masses who create doctrine -- formulate actions that are harmful, their "right" ends. Such would be NOW."
we totally agree zeke,your words and actions are harful and youve lost that right now and therefore you should be sent to mars....
You have not been debating at all...perhaps you should go to the DICTIONARY and look up the defintion...debate doesNOT involve name calling or slamming anothers views.And if you deny namecalling i will happily go thru your posts and re-post all the names you have called others on this site and show everyone what a hypocrite you are(they already see it tho)

"Such folk are closed minded for no reason beyond an inability to see beyond the end of their -- apparently, terribly short -- noses."
your monitor must have a mirror attached.
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Old 07-31-2007, 06:18 PM   #319
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Whatever... you'll see i edited your post for the bashing done before the disclaimer.



Ok I've seen people make the mistake of using this as their argument before and you are supposed to be the smart one here? Traditional values and ideals has nothing to do with working a job, driving a car or seeing a doctor for western medicine. That's like all the others saying, you can't be traditional because you own a computer and use it. Leave the inanimate out of the picture because what we are discussing here is more about how we view life and it's quality.



No, see this is your shield. To say, " Hi, I have an education and feel that I got all the answers because I don't want to live a certain way, so I'm going to bash my own kind for being happy as they are because it disgusts me."

Dude I know plenty of highly educated world travelled, open minded natives who don't see things the way you do. And it's not about keeping the native down and poor, or an excuse to be lazy... it's about about what you value in life.



Even if they are... it's their right regardless as it is your right to spout off the things you are. Not to a degree.. just their right.



The same could be said about your ideals as well. Oh and I think the have.....




I think what most people are having a problem with you is the way your approach these issues. You're smug, and arrogant and tend to talk down to people you don't even know. You come in already in a defensive manner and then proceed to offend. If you want people to understand why you see things the way you do, especially native people, then you need to start debating instead of harranging and telling everyone they are stupid and closed minded because they do not agree with you.



you do realize that now that youve challenged the self-righteous,you will be threatened with the dreaded ignore list( i didnt know those involved in debate would put people on ignore).
WELCOME TO THE CLUB!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-31-2007, 06:19 PM   #320
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This gets funnier and funnier..."When their ideals -- and the ongoing, ignorant, espousing of such to political masses who create doctrine -- formulate actions that are harmful, their "right" ends. Such would be NOW."
we totally agree zeke,your words and actions are harful and youve lost that right now and therefore you should be sent to mars....
You have not been debating at all...perhaps you should go to the DICTIONARY and look up the defintion...debate doesNOT involve name calling or slamming anothers views.And if you deny namecalling i will happily go thru your posts and re-post all the names you have called others on this site and show everyone what a hypocrite you are(they already see it tho)

"Such folk are closed minded for no reason beyond an inability to see beyond the end of their -- apparently, terribly short -- noses."
your monitor must have a mirror attached.

Hahaha "your monitor must have a mirror attatched" lol I like it. Funny that he speaks of closed mindedness but then tries to make it so that he cannot even see the posts of those who strongly disagree with his opinion...I'm not letting this one slip by ya Zeke. Its too funny
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