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Old 06-25-2007, 08:08 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by whitewave View Post
Oh yea (sarcasm) so then they can drill into what's left of this sacred land huh? Great idea Zeke.
Disband tribes and nations? (From your quote of another.)

I, certainly, would not continue to allow others to define them.

Serious fallacy within your argument: you presume that the existence of government-recognized tribes/nations would prevent the Federal government from doing something, if they really wanted to.

It won't.
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Old 06-25-2007, 09:28 PM   #102
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That we wear clothes just like the non-Indians do. Not run around in loin cloths/breech clouts and ride horses.

We wear regular clothes and drive cars. Not even all of the Bands/Tribes/Nations were proficient with the horse anyway. And That yes some of us still ride horses, but they not be our main source of transportation.


I have been asked this question more times than I can count. I politely educate them and point out how out dated and completely irrelevant their point of view is.
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Old 06-26-2007, 11:57 AM   #103
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Do you REALLY want them to know???!
Check out my thread here and tell em!
I dont know how to do the link...but here's the name of it:


PowWows.com Gathering > General > Native Life > Native News and Issues
Help me get the truth out!! PLEASE READ!
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Old 07-01-2007, 08:26 AM   #104
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hmm, I want them to know that....that....that...dangit, I want them to know that they have 500 years back rent due on this land, and if they don't get their act together, well, then, I'll have to call "La Migra"!
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Old 07-01-2007, 02:08 PM   #105
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I want the history of the nations told by them, not some indian agent or white who researched the agents notes. Most history that is taught is written by someone else. It could be one book or many books, something orignial with substance.
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Old 07-01-2007, 03:37 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by windanncer View Post
I want the history of the nations told by them, not some indian agent or white who researched the agents notes. Most history that is taught is written by someone else. It could be one book or many books, something orignial with substance.
A great book that I was introduced to is "Spiderwoman's Grandaughters". It is written by many Native American women and I loved it...
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Old 07-04-2007, 11:39 PM   #107
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You guys are sooo funny! I'll never forget his little face and how he looked! Ya know like when puppies hear a strange noise and cock their heads sideways, looking confused? Cute Kid, but I ain't eatin no bug for em!
ROFLMAO-at work no less!!! then I need to mop up the sip of tea I choked on when I started laughing and spraying tea all over the place.
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Old 07-05-2007, 04:47 AM   #108
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yeah it bugs me too that they keep refering to us as tribes instead of NAtions, So I would like them (and zeke) to know that under international law a treaty is an agreement entered into by 2 Nations WITHOUT negating the independence of either Nation. Which means that collecting on all the "rent" (or cheese) agreed to does not negate our independance as a Nation weather or not they recognize that. Oh yeah & some of our Nations do have their own currency, passports & birth certificates, even though the governments of the US & Canada don't recognize it.

Suzze
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Old 07-05-2007, 12:39 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
yeah it bugs me too that they keep refering to us as tribes instead of NAtions, So I would like them (and zeke) to know that under international law a treaty is an agreement entered into by 2 Nations WITHOUT negating the independence of either Nation. Which means that collecting on all the "rent" (or cheese) agreed to does not negate our independance as a Nation weather or not they recognize that. Oh yeah & some of our Nations do have their own currency, passports & birth certificates, even though the governments of the US & Canada don't recognize it.

Suzze
I'd like white folks -- and Suzze -- to realize the legal definition is "limited sovereignity," which makes us significantly LESS than recognized nations. (Sort of dead? A little bit pregant? Limited sovereignity is an oxymoron that actually means "NO SOVEREIGINTY" unless decreed by another.) To wit, nobody is getting casino rich in the United States, except under laws and auspices of the United States: there's nothing shady.

Hmmmm, Suzze. You mean other nations don't recognize tribally-produced currency and data? Doesn't sound very "recognized as a nation" to me. If the United States believed we had true, nation, status: they'd be concerned about not following through on those negotiated (you're kidding, right?) agreements.

Our independence has been long-since negated, typically undermined by folks -- like Suzze -- who are happy to accept the cheese as their birthright in exchange for non-thinking docility.

What I would MOST like whites to know? We're not all like that.

Want to create some change? Have impact? Modify white minds? Tell them you don't need the cheese anymore. Of course, the "entitlement types" among us will go CRAZY... :(

Peace out, yo.

Last edited by Zeke; 07-05-2007 at 12:54 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 07-05-2007, 01:37 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I'd like white folks -- and Suzze -- to realize the legal definition is "limited sovereignity," which makes us significantly LESS than recognized nations. (Sort of dead? A little bit pregant? Limited sovereignity is an oxymoron that actually means "NO SOVEREIGINTY" unless decreed by another.) To wit, nobody is getting casino rich in the United States, except under laws and auspices of the United States: there's nothing shady.

Hmmmm, Suzze. You mean other nations don't recognize tribally-produced currency and data? Doesn't sound very "recognized as a nation" to me. If the United States believed we had true, nation, status: they'd be concerned about not following through on those negotiated (you're kidding, right?) agreements.

Our independence has been long-since negated, typically undermined by folks -- like Suzze -- who are happy to accept the cheese as their birthright in exchange for non-thinking docility.

What I would MOST like whites to know? We're not all like that.

Want to create some change? Have impact? Modify white minds? Tell them you don't need the cheese anymore. Of course, the "entitlement types" among us will go CRAZY... :(

Peace out, yo.
Sure the US & Canada refuses to recognize that we are Nations...So what are we supposed to just roll over & give up? Thankfully some of us are stronger then that, some of us hold on to these things & fight back, & because of these people & DESPITE people like you, the heart, & love of our Nations will not die & that is what will someday bring justice for our peoples. What is more disheartening then the blindness of whites is the negativity of our own, that is more harmful then the poverty or the violence or the drugs & alcohol or the suicide becasue it is these attitudes from our own that leads to these other harms.
Now I'm sure I will get another catty reply from Zeke (which is a shame becasue this was a great thread) but it will only serve to prove my point about the harm of these attitudes.

Suzze
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Old 07-05-2007, 01:40 PM   #111
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I'd like them to know more about the issues brought up at the National Day of Action (June 29th), I'd like to know that at least some small percent learned something that they didn't know before that day. I'd like them to know that the blockades were generally in reference to land recently stolen & not something that happened over a hundred years ago. I'd like them to think about what extremes they would go to if it were to happen to them

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Old 07-05-2007, 09:10 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
Sure the US & Canada refuses to recognize that we are Nations...So what are we supposed to just roll over & give up?
On that pipe dream? You may wish to consider it: nobody in either government is going to recognize tribal currency and/or passport. (Unless, of course, they refuse to let you back In to either country, which is a possibility, if that is all you have.) Your issue is a fundamental inability to grasp reality: tribal sovereignity does not exist.

This, of course, goes back to the title of the thread: What do I want white folks to understand? That we operate under THEIR laws related to casino gaming. There are no shady deals, there is no mob. It's just business. Because we are good at it implies no illegality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
Thankfully some of us are stronger then that, some of us hold on to these things & fight back, & because of these people & DESPITE people like you, the heart, & love of our Nations will not die & that is what will someday bring justice for our peoples.
What, precisely would imply justice to you? More and better cheese for whiny entitlement types? (At best, that's what you're going to get with your approach.) The prior Nations -- as Suzze, in her social ignorance, seems to want, beg, believe and desire for -- are DEAD as they once were. That's not coming back. I would adore for white folks to know that we learn, grow, achieve and progress from whence we came: that we are powerful. That we are NOT AT ALL like Suzze in her small, ignorant, belittled and isolationist views.

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Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
What is more disheartening then the blindness of whites is the negativity of our own...
You mean like you, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
...that is more harmful then the poverty or the violence or the drugs & alcohol or the suicide becasue it is these attitudes from our own that leads to these other harms.
Another thing for whites -- and anyone else -- to know: what Suzze just said (and, apparently, believes) is unmitigated, loser, crap of the highest order. It is small, pandering, pitiful, "poor me", downtrodden, disenfranchised and sad. If there are Native attitudes to be scoured from the Earth and replaced with actual, thinking, enlightenment, I'd like everyone to know they are ones akin to hers.

Here's another thing I want whites, and all, to ponder: Do you know whose fault Native "poverty", "violence", "drugs", "alcohol" and "suicide" are? Not society's. Not the white man's. Not removal, the Dawes Act, Christianity or anything else. Today, as we sit, the responsibility for those issues lies with entitlement-types, who refuse to work, and/or their brethren who perpetuate, glorify and indulge in such harmful acts to their personal ruin.

I'd like whites, and others, to know that it is Natives, like Suzze, with a small, pandering, pitiful, "poor me", downtrodden, disenfranchised and sad countenance that cause our greatest harm. She cannot see that, to refuse to accept our responsibility for personal abuses, we keep ourselves as stunted wards. If she desires to remain a social child, she may: but we should disavow her thoughts, become adults, and leave her ideas to Natural Selection. They do Natives an horrific disservice.

Again, thankfully, we are not all like her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
Now I'm sure I will get another catty reply from Zeke (which is a shame becasue this was a great thread) but it will only serve to prove my point about the harm of these attitudes.

Suzze
Prove what point? That you refuse to empower Natives by pretending that those with issues bear any responsibility -- and can, thus, change -- for themselves? You are damned right attitudes are harmful. Yours, and ones like yours, hold us in the Dark Ages.

Back to the thread? Note to white folks: We're not all like this.
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:21 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
Sure the US & Canada refuses to recognize that we are Nations...So what are we supposed to just roll over & give up? Thankfully some of us are stronger then that, some of us hold on to these things & fight back, & because of these people & DESPITE people like you, the heart, & love of our Nations will not die & that is what will someday bring justice for our peoples. What is more disheartening then the blindness of whites is the negativity of our own, that is more harmful then the poverty or the violence or the drugs & alcohol or the suicide becasue it is these attitudes from our own that leads to these other harms.
Now I'm sure I will get another catty reply from Zeke (which is a shame becasue this was a great thread) but it will only serve to prove my point about the harm of these attitudes.

Suzze

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Old 07-05-2007, 09:22 PM   #114
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suzze

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Not everyone disagrees with you SuzzeQ...I find great strength in you words...I would rather think of things that can change the conditions, and there are many, than to bait some one into a screaming match.
I believe in your belief....don't let anyone take your power and strength, and as a woman I support you, and commend you.
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:30 PM   #115
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I would rather think of things that can change the conditions...
There was no screaming.

One more time (sigh): it is attitudes like Suzze's that cause the conditions.

I would like whites to know that such is no longer acceptable within our people: the disenfranchised, entitlement, era is over.

Suzze wishes to prolong it.

Hence our differences.
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:47 PM   #116
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There was no screaming.

One more time (sigh): it is attitudes like Suzze's that cause the conditions.

I would like whites to know that such is no longer acceptable within our people: the disenfranchised, entitlement, era is over.

Suzze wishes to prolong it.

Hence our differences.
I believe everyone want's what's best for the people, right? So why not find a common ground and put some real energy into achieving real actions? hmmmm, I could definately get behind two people with good idea's and can blend them into a concept that can change the way things are....just a thought
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:49 PM   #117
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some good ideas can grow into reality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
There was no screaming.

One more time (sigh): it is attitudes like Suzze's that cause the conditions.

I would like whites to know that such is no longer acceptable within our people: the disenfranchised, entitlement, era is over.

Suzze wishes to prolong it.

Hence our differences.
I believe everyone want's what's best for the people, right? So why not find a common ground and put some real energy into achieving real actions? hmmmm, I could definately get behind two people with good idea's and can blend them into a concept that can change the way things are....just a thought
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:16 PM   #118
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Change is inevitable.

I believe that we MUST try to retain what we have left. Especially the traditions/ceremonies. We have some parts of the original treaties/agreements that were negotiated on a nation to nation basis. Fighting to keep those is tough but now that we have lawyers/negotiators that can sit at a table with gov't officials and lawyers and can tap dance with the best of them, things are looking up.

As for the people who are down-trodden, alcoholics, drug abusers, etc. - yes, we can blame those symptons on the churches, governments. They did abuse our people. They didn't give them a chance at parenting skills. They sent them away to boarding schools. But....... that's what those are - symptoms. Some of our people are not accustomed to the white mans ways. Having tried and failed, they fall victim to these symptoms. Trying to keep a balance is hard. But...... again, we now have native people who can help those people with those symptoms. Doctors, counselors, nurses. People with those credentials along with traditional teachings who can combine those skills to assist those who need help- recover to live a good life.

I am not so naive to say that some people do not make bad choices and do choose to do bad things. But... I stand by what I have said - that there is blame on the part of the gov'ts and churches.

Trying to keep optimistic that things could get better for our people is what will help native people to survive. Forgetting our past will not help us to forge ahead into a better future. We need that reminder so we can live a fuller better way of life while still maintaining our traditions.
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:32 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii View Post
Change is inevitable.

I believe that we MUST try to retain what we have left. Especially the traditions/ceremonies. We have some parts of the original treaties/agreements that were negotiated on a nation to nation basis. Fighting to keep those is tough but now that we have lawyers/negotiators that can sit at a table with gov't officials and lawyers and can tap dance with the best of them, things are looking up.

As for the people who are down-trodden, alcoholics, drug abusers, etc. - yes, we can blame those symptons on the churches, governments. They did abuse our people. They didn't give them a chance at parenting skills. They sent them away to boarding schools. But....... that's what those are - symptoms. Some of our people are not accustomed to the white mans ways. Having tried and failed, they fall victim to these symptoms. Trying to keep a balance is hard. But...... again, we now have native people who can help those people with those symptoms. Doctors, counselors, nurses. People with those credentials along with traditional teachings who can combine those skills to assist those who need help- recover to live a good life.

I am not so naive to say that some people do not make bad choices and do choose to do bad things. But... I stand by what I have said - that there is blame on the part of the gov'ts and churches.

Trying to keep optimistic that things could get better for our people is what will help native people to survive. Forgetting our past will not help us to forge ahead into a better future. We need that reminder so we can live a fuller better way of life while still maintaining our traditions.

Thank you for your wonderful words. Like medicine for the wound.
I believe your right about the church and gov'ts are at the root...but loosing the freedom to walk the land, and many more losses have been passed down to many...too many...
whose lives are not the same...we will, I believe, recover and fight for the nations of America one day....in the Gov'ts very own buildings.
Thank you for helping me to see the path.
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:45 AM   #120
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Not everyone disagrees with you SuzzeQ...I find great strength in you words...I would rather think of things that can change the conditions, and there are many, than to bait some one into a screaming match.
I believe in your belief....don't let anyone take your power and strength, and as a woman I support you, and commend you.
I'll second that....
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