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Old 02-03-2004, 03:48 PM   #41
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I don't think it is correct to say that the Saponi is a conglomorate of several tribes, per se. At one time there were several bands of related Siouan speaking Indians in the Virginia and North Carolina Piedmont, including the Saponi, Tutelo, Occaneechee and others. All of these tribes came together in the 1700s for protection and at Fort Christanna were all assumed the name Saponi since they were obviously the most dominant, perhaps numerous of the tribes. However, even the Saponi were weakend by disease, warfare, and fractionalism and sought protection with the Catawba Nation in 1732. For some reason the Saponi, or at least the majority of them decided to move back to their old territory in Virginia accompanied by some Cheraw, another closely related Siouan tribe. Finding their lands patented and occupied the Saponi concluded peace with their old enemies the Tuscarora and were permitted to join them. The Saponi, Tuscarora, Meherrin, and Nottoway are mentioned in several documents throughout the 1750s, 1760s, and 1770s as being closely allied and incorporated together.
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Old 02-03-2004, 04:08 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by lumbeedancer
Although the Haliwas do have influences from other tribes it only seems apropriate and natural to me that they identify by the one which is the core of their community. In my eyes it would seem that once members from these other nations decided to join the Saponi they in essence decided to become them (which is nothing new, native nations have been doing this since forever!).
Very good point...however is it true that the tribes have just been doing that or is it that in order to exist they have been forced to join other tribes....the Oto-Missiouria are the same example...but there are not but maybe a handful of missouria left and once they are gone there will be nothing but otoes. So where does that leave the Missouria tribe? There are alot of tribes that have been forced into this way of life. The Otoes and Missourias didn't even like each other...but due to the genocide of the Indians and the Federal Government...the two tribes were recognized as one. So "in essence" did the tribes really "decide to become them"? Also what if your community has no core tribal identification? I grew up in "No Man's Land" in Oklahoma. By federal law no tribe can possess this area of land, (in trust terms). Further...I wouldn't just go be Saponi because it was the core of my community. Because that is who I identify with is not a reason to claim Saponi. However if that is part of my cultural diversity by heredity then and only then would it seem acceptable and plausible to claim Saponi. I don't claim Ioway or Pottawatomi and those are the 1/128 blood quantums I possess in my make up of 4/4 Native American Indian or "Skinz" Blood. It's just illogical (to me). I don't dress Ioway, or Citizen Band Pottawatomi or even Ponca but that's part of the genetic ancestry I have however it's not where I am enrolled. (Hmmmm!) I also had no ties with either the Kickapoo or Otoe communities other than to show up at Christmas and wish the family holiday tidings. No more different than what Non-Indians do. I certainly have no intentions of claiming Saponi, or Algonquin, or Siouan. But I do claim to be of the Human Race....and after all isn't that the only race that really matters?
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Old 02-03-2004, 04:31 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by rezdoll
Very good point...however is it true that the tribes have just been doing that or is it that in order to exist they have been forced to join other tribes....the Oto-Missiouria are the same example...but there are not but maybe a handful of missouria left and once they are gone there will be nothing but otoes. So where does that leave the Missouria tribe? There are alot of tribes that have been forced into this way of life. The Otoes and Missourias didn't even like each other...but due to the genocide of the Indians and the Federal Government...the two tribes were recognized as one. So "in essence" did the tribes really "decide to become them"? Also what if your community has no core tribal identification? I grew up in "No Man's Land" in Oklahoma. By federal law no tribe can possess this area of land, (in trust terms). Further...I wouldn't just go be Saponi because it was the core of my community. Because that is who I identify with is not a reason to claim Saponi. However if that is part of my cultural diversity by heredity then and only then would it seem acceptable and plausible to claim Saponi. I don't claim Ioway or Pottawatomi and those are the 1/128 blood quantums I possess in my make up of 4/4 Native American Indian or "Skinz" Blood. It's just illogical (to me). I don't dress Ioway, or Citizen Band Pottawatomi or even Ponca but that's part of the genetic ancestry I have however it's not where I am enrolled. (Hmmmm!) I also had no ties with either the Kickapoo or Otoe communities other than to show up at Christmas and wish the family holiday tidings. No more different than what Non-Indians do. I certainly have no intentions of claiming Saponi, or Algonquin, or Siouan. But I do claim to be of the Human Race....and after all isn't that the only race that really matters?
nah the race to dinner is the only race that really matters. Best cuts off the meat. ;)

but i agree... it does seem illogical to me to claim a blood quantum of less than half of your genetic makeup. I didnt learn those ways of life and wasn't taught much about them except my dominant culture which is kickapoo since i'm half ... So i was thinking... in creating the tribal recognition that is being sought, with such a large group of citizens involved how much is each individual going to gain? And as stated before A group knowledge session and language classes do not need federal funding but just shared community involvement amongst yourselves.
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Old 02-03-2004, 06:34 PM   #44
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Arrow Anishnawbe not Algonquin

Anishnawbe –Meaning of this word, First people, Original people, First man. In many books and websites, they state that we are Algonquin stock. However they are wrong, we recognize our selves as Anishnawbe stock. We speak the Anishnawbe language. Ojibways, Ojibwa, Ojibwe, Ojicree, Cree, Chippewa, Potawatomi, Algonquin, etc. Many elders told me that the Nishnawbe people were a big family at one time, before the whites came to this land. To learn more go to the Mi-da-win ceremonies and listen to the elders speak and you will learn the past and will be brighter for the future. These things I talk about are not my words, but from the elders stories. came to this land. Many of us know these old stories and other stories that been past
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Old 02-03-2004, 10:44 PM   #45
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rezdoll!

Quote:
Originally posted by rezdoll

Furthermore....what benefit if everyone went around getting people together to create or recreate a tribe that has long since passed on. Wouldn't everyone be Indian? Furthermore, if a tribe such as the Lumbee has 48,000 member couldn't they just do for themselves instead of relying on the government funding to accomplish what they want. What's the difference in a 3 member tribe or 48,000?

How much longer do we have to survive on the government anyways? Not much...especially with the way the federal deficit is. We must learn to become self sufficient in all areas and no longer depend on the government to support us. I have gone most of my life without government assistance or tribal assistance especially while in school so I for one cannot see what the benefit is in further recognition of other tribes. If you want to be a tribe then organize and teach your traditions...this doesn't need to be government funded or supplemented.

Just a thought or two!
That’s a pretty interesting perspective there with some good points, but there are a few things that I must disagree with.

Personally, I wouldn’t classify teaching/instituting the old ways (language and ceremony not pow wow!) on an individual tribal basis by legitimate Indian communities as reconstruction of new tribes! I’d say it’s more like (in the case of those being discussed on this thread) “healing” of wounded nations that never ceased to exist!

I would further like to argue that any legitimate Native people who have somehow managed to survive as a distinct tribal community (Since you brought us up, Lumbees being a prime example), not only has the right, but in fact has an obligation and duty to pursue true sovereignty and all it entails. Native nations are the original sovereigns of this land, that is a bloodstained birthright that we are all born with, despite whether the feds acknowledge it or not!

If not for the shear principle of inherent sovereignty alone, there are “numerous” other financial, political, as well as personal (ie; right to posses eagle feathers and what not) reasons that tribes need to bee recognized.

I think you’ve got a good point with the whole “doing for yourself thing,” but tribal options are very restricted (as a government entity) without full recognition. Being Lumbee I know that our tribal council strives to provide for the people, but at the same time does not have the proper recourses or in some cases legal authority to do so adequately. If you’ve ever been to Robeson County (Lumbee Homeland) first hand and seen the substance abuse problems, the poverty rate, the illiteracy rate, the unemployment rate, etc….(the list goes on) around here, you would know where I’m coming from.

In order to remedy problems like these tribal governments must develop programs to suite the needs of the people and then find the resources and get the clearance to institute these programs. Federal recognition entitles tribes to some financial assistance as well as a means to develop other tribal revenues on their own, but more importantly gives them the sovereign status to create a more self sufficient and independent community where, although somewhat limited, tribes can determine key aspects of their lives for themselves.

Cultural preservation is essential to our survival as First Nations, but equally important are the aspects of our standards of living, and political power/standing as a distinct self-governing sovereign entity!

Just a different perspective, “to each his own I guess!”
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Old 02-03-2004, 11:39 PM   #46
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I am half joking but half not.. Why would we want less indians?

On the surface wouldn't it be politically astute to increase our numbers? What other group in the world wants to go extinct, cause that is what is going to happen.
But the Other hand, there is or seems to be a real fear of cultural dilution. There may be two positions... indians who seek recognition as a political entity for the reasons mentioned in other posts, And those who seek cultural identity. Could there come a day where there a lots of indians, but they are just another ethnic based political group who are just a part of the overall culture, like German americans or italian Americans but instead of Oktoberfest they have powows? I hope Im gone by then.
The Saponi, etc, are just ahead of the rest of us. In 100 years how many full bloods left in our tribes here in OK.
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Old 02-04-2004, 01:09 PM   #47
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The Saponi and several other Tribes took the Brunt of the "White is right" mentality......Geography played and still plays a big role in the way things have come to be, and the way things will continue to be.... Take time into consideration as well....It would be nice for people to visit and observe some more before they "opininate" on something...Sure we're all entitled to our opinions but try being about it instead of speaking about it...Some of the Ignorance "demonstrated" here is sad at best and pretty dam comical......How can anyone be so Naive to think they way in which they do? Why can't certain people appreciate the mere fact of survival here? How the proverbial "White wave" hit a whole hell of a lot harder in some places? Then for someone to turn around and question who and what someone is...? If your going to buy into that mentality well your simply cutting your nose to spite your face....Think about that the next time you pound your chest and talk abut how much of this you are or how much of that you are...There ain't a dam thing wrong with being proud, but don't try to belittle other people in the process. Cause they lightened your load.........
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Old 02-04-2004, 01:18 PM   #48
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Federal recognition doesn't defind someones cultural or self-meaning! I'm not going to be any different just because my tribes are recognized! In fact my dad's people weren't recognize until the 1980's but they were still there preserving themselves and their way of life. I know that the Haliwa-Saponi Tribe are also working hard to preserve their cultural for I had the previlage to stay among this tribe for 9 months and seen the different programs they offer. I was married to a proud Haliwa-Saponi and when we moved west he wasn't afraid to let people know who he was and were he came from. Yes, he did run into a few knuckle heads who judged him by his looks but he stood proud and educated them. While I stayed on the east coast I ran in some stereotypes and "prejudices" (like I said->a few knukleheads) but not among the majority of the natives in NC. I'm proud to have met and lived among the tribes, especially the Haliwas, in NC. Doesn't everyone experience stereotypes? Just because one don't have brown skin and long black hair doesn't mean they are not indian. Many tribes have inter-mingled with other tribes and non tribal people so much that it's getting hard to find a "full blood" in many tribes. I have Euchee and French in the "bloodline" but was weened out due to my great, great grandparents down to my grandmother chose to say among the tribe to make sure the bloodline stays strong. My mother made the decision to have kids with my father which puts me as half/half. Now it's my decision to decide wether I go to either tribe to have kids or thin out the bloodline!!!hahaha
So no matter what tribe you are, Federally recognized or not, be proud of who you are and continue to make the bloodline strong.

To my NC family and friends-I miss you guys; hopefully I'll be able to return "home" one day!! It's crazy to think that we are all functioning adults now!! HAHAHA Take care!
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Old 02-04-2004, 01:36 PM   #49
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uh hello...
My last post was in FAVOR of everything the Saponi are doing..
I pointed out they had already met the challenges that other
tribes have in thier future. Apparently so have the lumbee and others. By the way, because of this thread the past week I found out I one set of great- grandparents were from Robeson, NC.
My 83 year old mom blew my mind telling me this. They are married into Locklears etc...Now I have a new quest..I must be related to these folks out there, Lumbee? Saponi.. I never did geneology but now its time to find out..I am not going to bash folks I may be related to...
Part of my job is cultural documentation,revitalization, language lessons...I am the last guy to bash that....
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Old 02-04-2004, 07:24 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by superndngyrl
u know i was thinking...

since Saponi's are like a conglomerate of tribes... isn't that the same as me (or an ojib or a meskwakie) claiming i'm algonquin? and trying to form a tribe called algonquin?
Anishnawbe –Meaning of this word, First people, Original people, First man. In many books and websites, they state that we are Algonquin stock. However they are wrong, we recognize our selves as Anishnawbe stock. We speak the Anishnawbe language. Ojibways, Ojibwa, Ojibwe, Ojicree, Cree, Chippewa, Potawatomi, Algonquin, etc. Many elders told me that the Nishnawbe people were a big family at one time, before the whites came to this land.

This is what cree_warrior10 said....
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Old 02-04-2004, 07:56 PM   #51
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Does it matter if a native is mixed with black ancestry or white? I think not as long as they keep true to the native traditon and way of life. How can another native criticize another for being og mixed ancestry? Be careful that you don't catch the Europeans way of racism, it is a nasty little bug!
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Old 02-05-2004, 09:17 PM   #52
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Quote:
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Anishnawbe ....

This is what cree_warrior10 said....
um thanks but I can read. :D
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Old 02-05-2004, 09:32 PM   #53
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Re: rezdoll!

First of all, I want to make it clear...I am by no means trying to annihilate or diseminate anyone. I just merely posed a thought provoking question or rather question(s)? I just want everyone to think about what is going on within their own tribe(s) federally recognized or otherwise. There is so much separation within tribes today that no one needs to point fingers and say your not Indian because of this or that. However, I just like to see that Natives everywhere stop and think about things other than making dancing outfits, ceremonial outfits and living in the past but rather work toward a future. It is the tribes' sovereign right to decide what blood quantum to keep everyone at. As far as full-bloods go it's just a measurement the government (remember it started out as the war department) keeps to remind us who is in charge. When actually each tribe could increase the blood quantum of anyone at anytime provided they follow the correct tribal guidelines and register it with the Bureau of Indian Affairs. True, there aren't that many full bloods left, but in effect it's tribal members' decisions that have diminuished the blood quantums. Remember, that is the ONE TRUE RIGHT (the right to change the blood quantum at any given time) WE STILL POSSESS!!!
Also, in regards to the rates of substance abuse, illiteracy, unemployment, and etc. that is a given anywhere...I live in a community now, where the median income is less than $7,000/year (as of last statistics the poverty level was $9000/year for this area alone). The substance abuse is no higher than anywhere else I have ever been and I have done my share of travelling and the other problems well they are there...but my question to you is what have YOU done for your part in combating these same problems within YOUR community. I have done my share starting over 12 years ago and continue on today working within my community to get the assistance and programs for the people...this includes grant writing (and for programs that don't require a tribe's federal recognition), program directing and organizing even when (you feel) no one really wants it. I do reflect on the past (and cherish the ancestry that has made me the proud Woman I am) and if I don't take care of today there will be no tomorrow to look forward to. I agree that everyone should be proud of who they are and where they came from regardless of What it is. Again, isn't the human race the only race that really matters? (Except for where Super and her dinner are concerned!!!!!) :Chatter

And as far as the "Europeans' way of racism" some of the tribes did not willingly let other tribes intermarry or intermingle with them. Most had outsiders who were of mixed blood (being blood of different from the tribe) and were forced to live on the edges of the camp or kept as concubines. I do know the Otoes were like this. So was the racism really a way of the Europeans???? Do the research and you will find that what I am writing about is true. It may be ugly, but racism and ethnocentrism have been around in Indian Country for far longer than any of us computer users. I think that most of us who do have even the tiniest sliver of "racism" in our blood comes from what we were taught. I know it's what I was taught even against other tribes....but hey I do my best to not let it rear its ugly little head. However, Pandora's box was opened long before I ever came along!

Again, these are just thought provoking questions and opinions!

I love the human race!
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Old 02-05-2004, 10:37 PM   #54
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Re: Re: rezdoll!

Quote:
Originally posted by rezdoll
"[A]nd as far as the "Europeans' way of racism" some of the tribes did not willingly let other tribes intermarry or intermingle with them. Most had outsiders who were of mixed blood (being blood of different from the tribe) and were forced to live on the edges of the camp or kept as concubines. I do know the Otoes were like this. So was the racism really a way of the Europeans????"

I love the human race! [/B]


No, the first time there was ever a recording of racism was in 1640, when three men ran away from a plantation. One was a dutch another was Irish and the last was African. When the courts rendered their decision, the two whites got off with serving two more years tapped on to their indeture servitude. Well, the African, had to serve life. They even took it a step further and said from here on out we define slavery as 'Black"(dark skin) to be inferior was to have dark skin! To hate another tribe is not racist, it is merely keeping old tribal conflict alive. Trust me if a Cherokee hated a creek it was not because of the color of the Creek's skin.
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Old 02-05-2004, 10:51 PM   #55
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yea but it wasn't documented among the tribes because they weren't looking for our native perspective on things... they were just trying to hunt us down. prior to 1640 some of our native communities hadn't even had contact w/the white man yet....

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Old 02-09-2004, 12:45 PM   #56
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Good Point

Contact:

Some Natives had contact with the White Man as early as the 12th Century (1150) as far as being documented or actual. But many scholars and even Natives agree that White Contact could have been even earlier.

Massive White Contact could be seen in the 16th Century with the Spanish, French, English, Dutch, Protugeuse, Russian, Italian, and German Explorations of the New World.

We know that some Native Communites did not have actual White Contact until as late as the 19th Century.

So it can make you think about how the Tribes have changed over the past 1000 years or so.
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Old 10-03-2005, 09:32 PM   #57
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just the facts ma'am

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyot_In_The_House
The Saponi and several other Tribes took the Brunt of the "White is right" mentality......Geography played and still plays a big role in the way things have come to be, and the way things will continue to be.... Take time into consideration as well....It would be nice for people to visit and observe some more before they "opininate" on something...Sure we're all entitled to our opinions but try being about it instead of speaking about it...Some of the Ignorance "demonstrated" here is sad at best and pretty dam comical......How can anyone be so Naive to think they way in which they do? Why can't certain people appreciate the mere fact of survival here? How the proverbial "White wave" hit a whole hell of a lot harder in some places? Then for someone to turn around and question who and what someone is...? If your going to buy into that mentality well your simply cutting your nose to spite your face....Think about that the next time you pound your chest and talk abut how much of this you are or how much of that you are...There ain't a dam thing wrong with being proud, but don't try to belittle other people in the process. Cause they lightened your load.........
Sorry to beat a dead horse & resuscitate this board but I really liked Coyot's perspective on all this - East Coast Natives mount up & represent! I don't think anyone else could have taken the massive influx of the crazy whities & still have what we do after all these years - It's a testament to who we are! And, no, I don't mean powwows.........To LumbeeDancer, Saponi4Ever and anyone else working to preserve "OUR" traditions as individual NDN peoples I'm proud to call you my NDN brothas/sistas.

To all the naysayers, do you realize how many gov't programs are implemented in communities all across this nation? Geez, why don't we just get rid of the entire welfare program? Hey, I say, NDN people, break yourselves off a piece of the pie! And, if anyone learned self-sufficiency early in the game, it was us here in the east. Lumbees are highly self-sufficient (1st NDN-owned bank in the US, don't get me started w/ my laundry list) and we're raised to work hard and stay humble. But, that doesn't mean there are those that don't need and deserve help. At any rate, seeing as how the majority of the NDN population lives in urban areas, most ARE living in a self-sufficient manner b/c they're not entitled to tribal benefits away from home.
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Old 10-03-2005, 09:45 PM   #58
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Old 10-03-2005, 09:59 PM   #59
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Post Better Do More Research from your own background?

Quote:
Originally Posted by techbean2002
I been doing some research on the Saponi name, I found out that the name came from Africa. Slaves came all over africa and interbreeded with whites and natives Americans over the many years, so its hard to tell if Saponi's are native America. Can any of you Saponi find more information on the Saponi past and how you came to be Saponi, reason asking beacuase many of you are black, if some of you are native it has to be Ocaneechee. Do your research and find out.

It's like the history books say that the Indians came over here and relocated from Asia during the ice age??? Has anyone else heard those rumors?
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Old 10-11-2005, 10:31 PM   #60
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Proud Haliwa Saponi

JEEEEEEEEZZZZZZ AWEEEEEEEEZA, my head is just spinning out of control, please someone stop it. we must be a very interesting, exciting tribe of peoples, huh! hey cuzes it never stops, its bad enough that the US goverment, started all of these conflects, and now our own people are still today 2005 bickering, and cant we all ever just unite together as one, wow we would be stronger than we are today. correction we all are not mixed with white or black, or any other race. some are and some aren't, like so many other tribes across the US. salute to all my peeps, goooot replys.
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