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Old 01-15-2004, 02:58 AM   #81
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I read and couldn't hold my tongue, sorry.
What I don't get about some white folks is the idea that good intentions, talks with elders, and observations can ever lead to an authority on something. It reminds me of old dude in Dream Keeper. Grandpa said his kind just wants to be "connected" to the things that their ancestors just don't understand. But can we really be real?

Dancing in the arena with or without feathers doesn't change the unemployment rate on the rez. Dancing with elders and wearing regalia (whether correctly or not) doesn't lower the alcoholism rate. Reminding Indians about what powwows are for doesn't do a dent of help to the drop out rate among native youth.

So, whatever one's reasons for dancing are, don't you think the bigger picture is tragic? While fighting with us over whether or not we're racist, or what women should wear in the arena (I read all the pages. It must've gotten real out of hand because the original thread has been recycled), does anyone ever think that after the powwow some folks go home to their nice homes and jobs, while we pick up the pieces?

Please stop expecting Indins to loosen the reins on the arena. It is all that's left in so many cases.

Sometimes I get really pissed because it's like non natives choose to be enchanted by Indian cultures because they truly believe in the noble savage. How dare they protest my wanting to be with them? They're supposed to offer me food, clothing and shelter.

I don't believe such people want to be Indian. They don't. They don't want to be mistaken for Latino, or believed to be annihilated. They don't want to have sports teams laugh at them. They don't want to be struggle to be 1% of the population. They don't want to be the new scapegoat (how dare poor Indians make casino money when California has lint in her pockets).

These people don't want to be Indian. They don't want to be Latino. They damn sure don't want to be Black (uh, officer, can you beat me tomorrow instead of today?)

No, they want to dance with a grandpa elder.
They want us (the Latino) to mow their lawns.
They want us (the African Americans) to tell funny jokes and play ball like Kobe (oops, not like Kobe, he had him a white girl).
Then they want to go to their nice homes in the suburbs and feel blessed to be who they are.

And if we dare tell them that we'd rather not? Oh lawdy lawdy! They'll remind us that we don't know our own cultures and that we've inherited the minds of the ones who profited from our lots in the first place.

Hmm.
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Old 01-15-2004, 08:30 AM   #82
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What makes me mad is to go to a powwow that is supposed to be "traditional" and look around to see that it is nothing but hokie. Then to have some white person come up to me and try to tell me what "my" tradition is and how we are supposed to be doing things. I don't think so. Then trying to give me some lame story of how they received their feathers. Hey, here's a quarter, go call someone who cares because I don't want to hear that junk about the ancestors talked to you.

All of the white people that I've encountered at powwows, and are dancing, always give the same story and that is the ancestors talked to them and told them to wear the Eagle feathers. That's a bunch of bull. All of my feathers that I have, were gifted to me. I am a Marine Corps Veteran who served in Operation Desert Storm. I served in the Corps for 11 1/2 years. So, I have received my feathers in the right way.

As for you, C Rock, to come on here and tell MY powwows.com family(my brothers and sisters) that they do not have a right to tell you how they REALLY feel is wrong. You are just feeling some of the heat and disgust that we have been dealing with for the past 100 years.

To say that I am mad right now is an understatment. I'm so fired up right now that I've forgotten what the topic was .

Jinglin Chica, my friend Jibby, and all of the rest of you that voiced your opinion on this, I say thanks for standing up. It is up to us to defend and keep "OUR" traditions and culture alive. Besides, some white people think that they are so smart that they fail to realize that different tribes have different traditions.

If I've offended anyone on here, please forgive me. I just had to air what I've been feeling for so long.
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Old 01-15-2004, 09:40 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by DANCINGEAGLE
What makes me mad is to go to a powwow that is supposed to be "traditional" and look around to see that it is nothing but hokie. Then to have some white person come up to me and try to tell me what "my" tradition is and how we are supposed to be doing things. I don't think so. Then trying to give me some lame story of how they received their feathers. Hey, here's a quarter, go call someone who cares because I don't want to hear that junk about the ancestors talked to you.

All of the white people that I've encountered at powwows, and are dancing, always give the same story and that is the ancestors talked to them and told them to wear the Eagle feathers. That's a bunch of bull. All of my feathers that I have, were gifted to me. I am a Marine Corps Veteran who served in Operation Desert Storm. I served in the Corps for 11 1/2 years. So, I have received my feathers in the right way.

As for you, C Rock, to come on here and tell MY powwows.com family(my brothers and sisters) that they do not have a right to tell you how they REALLY feel is wrong. You are just feeling some of the heat and disgust that we have been dealing with for the past 100 years.

To say that I am mad right now is an understatment. I'm so fired up right now that I've forgotten what the topic was .

Jinglin Chica, my friend Jibby, and all of the rest of you that voiced your opinion on this, I say thanks for standing up. It is up to us to defend and keep "OUR" traditions and culture alive. Besides, some white people think that they are so smart that they fail to realize that different tribes have different traditions.

If I've offended anyone on here, please forgive me. I just had to air what I've been feeling for so long.

;)
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Old 01-15-2004, 12:46 PM   #84
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Thanks Homa and Dancing Eagle for your poignant remarks!:D
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Old 01-15-2004, 02:30 PM   #85
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Hey, you're welcome although thanks is never needed for the truth. It stands on its own and has nothing to do with me!:)
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Old 01-15-2004, 02:37 PM   #86
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SI just wanted to use that word "poignant":D

Just wanted you all to know that I "vehemently" disagree with Crock.

My word of the day.:rofl2:
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Old 01-15-2004, 07:14 PM   #87
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Originally posted by Kiwehnzii
SI just wanted to use that word "poignant":D

Just wanted you all to know that I "vehemently" disagree with Crock.

My word of the day.:rofl2:
Ki - here's $5 to help pay for that $20 word!
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Old 01-16-2004, 12:49 AM   #88
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*just read the whole thread*

Homalosa. . .Singing Eagle. . .Jibby. . .and others, as usual, you have made perfect sense. I don't know why it's not clear to those who need to hear the message.

I do think Super said it VERY well when she said "To respect us means even accepting NO as an answer." As someone of mixed heritage, this is perhaps the most important thing to know. Not everything is meant for us (mixed people). Not everything is there for us to learn. Not everything will be revealed to us. To come to peace with that is a struggle lifted.

I attend pow wows; I feel I know "my place". And yes, there is a place to know! I see white people roll up there, can't find a place to sit, so they will park their chairs right in the entry-way to the arena, like it was left open just for them. Or they sit there and make ignorant remarks, do not keep themselves in check with the pointing and gawking. Talking about "he must be a shaman" to the one who carries the Eagle Staff.

I may participate in an inter-tribal from time-to-time, but only if asked on a pow-wow to pow-wow basis. I don't take one invitation as an open book for the rest of my life. I enjoy watching dancing but don't feel the need to dance myself. It is enough to watch, for me. I see too many "white people" enter and have not learned enough before storming into the arena. It is embarassing for all parties involved.

But one thing I will always do is stand up to any white person/mixed breed who says they have "rights" to do what they want when they want in regards to native culture. What "rights" does one have among a people who shared and got nothing in return for it? Repeatedly violated, torn down, lied to, shafted. . .a non-native or person of mixed heritage is lucky to even be allowed to observe such beauty after such evil has been done. So, please, just sit down and shut the hell up! (Ooops, pregnancy hormones busting out again.)

To those who have read all this, I thank you. And to those who keep fighting the good fight. . .I say thank you as well. It's not easy shouting at the wind. I've done my share, and will do it again in the future, I'm sure.
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Old 01-16-2004, 08:54 AM   #89
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Thanks for the words traci! :D
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Old 01-16-2004, 10:36 AM   #90
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Thanks Homa and Dancing Eagle for your poignant remarks!:D
I've got to get me a word calendar :D :D . Hey SE, no thanks needed. Just had to air a little bit.

Traci_M, thanks for the good words.
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Old 01-16-2004, 09:46 PM   #91
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Ok, as a person of mixed-blood who is all NDN, I will dance at powwows, but not competition ones as I feel dancing to be a form of praying. If we had a place to have a monthly Social around here, I would also dance there, because dancing together is a fellowship, a thing which lifts our spirits. When the occasion and invitation arises, I have gone to prayer dances and Sacred Fire ceremonies. There is a proper way for a woman to dress even at a social or during inter-tribal at powwows, where modest attire(cover your hide or stay outside) includes a shawl.

Ceremonies such as stomps require regalia that you do not wear anywhere else, not to powwows even. Due to the sacred nature of these ceremonies, I will not discuss the regalia, but those of us who follow our traditional cultures know what this entails, and again, modesty is a part of it.

It's too danged hot here for buckskin, so I wear cloth dresses for powwow. I like to make mine with a tunic top and skirt, so the top also doubles as a ribbon shirt. I have a tear dress, but usually wear it when the weather is cooler-all those yards of material can operate like a sauna in the high humidity we get here in the Southeast. Before the tear dress our women wore a tunic and skirt, with leggings. Before I even start an outfit, I pray over it. While I make it, I pray over it, when I finish it, I pray over it. Every time I put it on or take it off, I pray over it. While I'm wearing it I am mindful of my attitudes, words, and actions because I am in the presence of my Creator and ancestors, and those assembled there, as a Cherokee woman and as a representative of my people in front of non-Indians. I will not shame my people or myself by "playing" Indian.

Traditionally, Cherokee women did not wear eagle feathers as adornment. If you wore one, it was because you had been honored for something or because you had a son or husband at war. I was given one long ago, and passed it on to my younger daughter when she began dancing. Just as I had been shown how to honor that feather and care for it, I made sure she knew how to do so as well, so that we would both continue to be blessed through it. I gave her my redtail wing fan, which had also had been received as a gift.

I still have a fan of hawk tail feathers, and one made from the right wing of a young wild turkey hen that had been shot by my son. He had prepared for the hunt in the proper way, brought her down with a clean shot, prayed over and thanked her for her gift, then gave every part of her away. Interestingly enough, the only people who've said anything about it to me were whites who-trying to show how much they know-said I was carrying it because I must not be really Indian. Imagine their surprise when a full-blood came to my defense and told them they didn't know anything, that to us Cherokees the turkey is also sacred, and that they should be more respectful. Hmmm, maybe some day I'll make one of those turkey feather capes our people used to wear.

I see plenty of ill-made regalia, worn by wannabe's playing Indian who don't have a clue as to what regalia is about, what being NDN is about. Sure, if someone is trying to connect with their lost heritage, I can have a heart for them, but someone who's truly NDN will understand that they don't step into that circle until the elders say they're ready to, and that there are certain protocols which must be honored for them to be ready. They have to be taught by someone who has elders' permission to do so, they have to prepare mentally and spiritually as well as physically-learning what the dances mean, where they came from, why they're done. And when they're brought into the circle, they have to honor the elders, the drum(s), those officiating, and those who taught them...and give-aways are not cheap, either in terms of cost or in time spent choosing what to give each person, making things, and making each gift a blessing to the person you give it to.

Correcting these people is the responsibility of the whipman, whipwoman, arena directors, or elders. Much as we want to say something to them, it may not be our place to do so as we are then taking on authority we weren't given. When I see something that isn't right, I go to the person in authority and tell them. Even if it's out of the circle or at a powwow or other event open to the general public, it reflects better on us as a whole to correct someone gently if possible, or to respond to someone else's ignorance with dignity and decorum. There's enough fools out there, no need to lower ourselves to their level. Or as my son says, never argue with an idiot-he'll pull you down to his level then beat you with experience.
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Old 01-17-2004, 04:18 PM   #92
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i think you, jinglin chica, are not right. i live here over the atlantic in europe in austria. in my area eagle and hawks are very important. and i have eagle and hawk feathers which were given to me from my father and my grandmother. i agree when you are saying that white people should not have/wear eagle feathers regarding the native issue but in general thats not true because eagles arent only common in america. i am very proud of my feathers und take care of them and they are of great value for me.
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Old 01-17-2004, 07:07 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stephan
i think you, jinglin chica, are not right. i live here over the atlantic in europe in austria. in my area eagle and hawks are very important. and i have eagle and hawk feathers which were given to me from my father and my grandmother. i agree when you are saying that white people should not have/wear eagle feathers regarding the native issue but in general thats not true because eagles arent only common in america. i am very proud of my feathers und take care of them and they are of great value for me.

Ohhhh puuhhleeezee STEPAHNO Yay for you for living in Europe and now don't we have OTHER wannabe's out there in EUROPE trying to BECOME indian? Puuhhleezee.. yes Eagles are everywhere, buuuuttt as a First Nations/Indigenous people of Canada and North America we FULL BLOODED NDN's have MORE RIGHT of the legal possession of eagle feathers. The issue here is a WHITE BOY (JUST LIKE YOU) that has gone FAR FROM taking the RIGHT paths and right BLESSINGS to dance using the eagle feathers as his main regalia. MY gawd..don't you white people at all GET what we have said on this thread...over and over.. are you all that DENSE?? Eagle feathers are sacred to our people, can't you all just accept the fact that you were NOT the SOLE owners of these sacred birds in the beginning of time?? AS for the WHITE BOY ...and others who have eagle feathers in their possession without appropriate blessings to use the feathers are going to suffer the consequences later in life. This is NOT a superstition, this is the FACT. So my gawd, get it through your biligana heads and just stick to RIVERDANCING and CHEERLEADING!!! :Yell :Mad
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Old 01-17-2004, 09:54 PM   #94
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Thx Burbie, great post but I have something to add...

Listen stephan, you've no clue what we're talking about so keep your nose out of it. If you want to argue with me, fine. I'd advise you to make sure you know what exactly it is that I'm fighting against. However, in the end, it won't matter what your points are. I'll never like any white person dancing and using eagle feathers. Don't think you can come in here and tell me that I'm wrong for speaking my mind about something I've firmly believed in all my life.
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Old 01-18-2004, 12:45 AM   #95
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Ladies, Stephan chose to post in response to the fact that Native Americans are not the only culture in this world that used, wore or held in high regard (or in other words considered sacred) the Eagle and it's part. If either of you might have take the time to observe other cultures in your short lives you may have noticed the use of eagle feathers is fairly common among the Scottish to just state one example. The way they use them is not entirely different from the way natives do, though not nearly so many are used at once, but nonetheless they are a highly respected and symbolic part of their traditional dress clothes. The cultural use of these thing by native american culture does not make their use exclusively yours. The fact that you both chose to so flippantly dismiss someone that was merely trying to enlighten you to the use of feathers by people of other country only shows how pathetically narrow minded your view of the world is. Yes, this thread and board are both in reference to native american culture but in this day and age no culture can ignore the others and to be so rude to someone injecting FACTS is pathetic.

More over, I must have misread something because I never once saw where C-Rock77 ever stated that he possessed, much less wore REAL eagle feathers, and isn't that a large part of what you have been droning on and on about?

Is this how you get your frustrations out? I can't say I have seen either of you do anything on this board but complain about one thing or another (well outside of you acting goofy in the chat forum that is).

Feel free to dive in on me too, cause I am through with this and will not be back to discuss your arrogant behavior again. Have a nice day.
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My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.
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Old 01-18-2004, 01:26 AM   #96
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Old 01-18-2004, 02:49 AM   #97
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Old 01-18-2004, 05:36 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by powwowbum49
Ladies, Stephan chose to post in response to the fact that Native Americans are not the only culture in this world that used, wore or held in high regard (or in other words considered sacred) the Eagle and it's part. If either of you might have take the time to observe other cultures in your short lives you may have noticed the use of eagle feathers is fairly common among the Scottish to just state one example. The way they use them is not entirely different from the way natives do, though not nearly so many are used at once, but nonetheless they are a highly respected and symbolic part of their traditional dress clothes. The cultural use of these thing by native american culture does not make their use exclusively yours. The fact that you both chose to so flippantly dismiss someone that was merely trying to enlighten you to the use of feathers by people of other country only shows how pathetically narrow minded your view of the world is. Yes, this thread and board are both in reference to native american culture but in this day and age no culture can ignore the others and to be so rude to someone injecting FACTS is pathetic.

More over, I must have misread something because I never once saw where C-Rock77 ever stated that he possessed, much less wore REAL eagle feathers, and isn't that a large part of what you have been droning on and on about?

Is this how you get your frustrations out? I can't say I have seen either of you do anything on this board but complain about one thing or another (well outside of you acting goofy in the chat forum that is).

Feel free to dive in on me too, cause I am through with this and will not be back to discuss your arrogant behavior again. Have a nice day.
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Old 01-18-2004, 11:32 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by powwowbum49
Ladies, Stephan chose to post in response to the fact that Native Americans are not the only culture in this world that used, wore or held in high regard (or in other words considered sacred) the Eagle and it's part. If either of you might have take the time to observe other cultures in your short lives you may have noticed the use of eagle feathers is fairly common among the Scottish to just state one example. The way they use them is not entirely different from the way natives do, though not nearly so many are used at once, but nonetheless they are a highly respected and symbolic part of their traditional dress clothes. The cultural use of these thing by native american culture does not make their use exclusively yours. The fact that you both chose to so flippantly dismiss someone that was merely trying to enlighten you to the use of feathers by people of other country only shows how pathetically narrow minded your view of the world is. Yes, this thread and board are both in reference to native american culture but in this day and age no culture can ignore the others and to be so rude to someone injecting FACTS is pathetic.

More over, I must have misread something because I never once saw where C-Rock77 ever stated that he possessed, much less wore REAL eagle feathers, and isn't that a large part of what you have been droning on and on about?

Is this how you get your frustrations out? I can't say I have seen either of you do anything on this board but complain about one thing or another (well outside of you acting goofy in the chat forum that is).

Feel free to dive in on me too, cause I am through with this and will not be back to discuss your arrogant behavior again. Have a nice day.

My my aren't we MAKING personal attacks here? I thought a MODERATORS job was to keep things in LINE on the boards, not MAKE personal attacks to other users Calling us "pathetically narrow minded" ALSO to state all we do is COMPLAIN? LOL We are not the only ones complaining about it! So you calling the rest of the other folks on this thread that have posted here also NARROW MINDED? since it is in regards to what was being discussed all along? Yeah we act goofy on the other boards, so what... who made you the boss *ohhh yeah you have that senior moderator title* so you think with that title you can keep us users from voicing our opinions and our OWN beliefs? Just because we seem to be GOOFY elsewhere on the boards, does not mean we don't give a flying crap about what else is being discussed here as well? Like Mato said, this stuff has been discussed over and over and we can always keep voicing our opinions. And thank you for following us around and checking out our posts :D we just feel oh so special Arrogant behavior :D thank you... :D
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Old 01-18-2004, 11:34 AM   #100
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Go ahead and roll your eyes.. but he's right !

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OH and BTW.. up in stephano tribe area..i dont' see scottish.. it says AUSTRIAN :D
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