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Old 03-02-2013, 12:18 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by GoggenGH View Post
No, you are right comadre! This IS the white-man's problem!!!! We are the ones giving the NDN this problem, so we should consider ourself responsable, and try to help, if our help is accepted.
I'm sorry, but I just don't believe this at all.

Is McDonald's the "white mans problem?"
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Old 03-02-2013, 12:55 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I'm sorry, but I just don't believe this at all.

Is McDonald's the "white mans problem?"
Hi Zeke! You got a very pointed and provoking language, no?

I would not allow myself to compare alcohol problem with overweight, but I got your point! I guees it's all a person responsabilty to stay dry!
I can not blame McDonald, Coca Cola and so on, for destroying the health of people, or can I????

BUT, if the white man had NEVER proposed the firewater to the NDN in the past, the situation would not had been the same today!
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Old 03-02-2013, 01:01 PM   #203
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Last edited by comadre; 03-02-2013 at 01:03 PM..
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Old 03-02-2013, 01:06 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoggenGH View Post
No, you are right comadre! This IS the white-man's problem!!!! We are the ones giving the NDN this problem, so we should consider ourself responsable, and try to help, if our help is accepted.
.
That is NOT what I meant Goggen.

I'm not so sure about the "considering oneself responsible" or standing by them because it's a "white man's problem." I'm not into pointing fingers or eating blame.I also can not see productivity coming from the us and them philosophy that seems to pervade this country. I'm just saying that if something is wrong then it's wrong. If a community hurts then the whole land and all it's inhabitants should be concerned.
So when you said this is not your business because you are white, it made me do a heads up and I thought, huh? What does your color (or lack thereof) have to do with anything? I watch too many non native people turn their heads on every issue that touches native community and it drives me bonkers to try to figure out WHY.
It's as if they see it as an us and them world.

Goggen if you were walking down the street and seen my children struggling and passed them by with no offer to help because you were "white" I'd think you strange indeed my friend.

I'm not suggesting we butt into native issues with our own solutions.On the contrary. Rather I think it's high time to ask the native community what we can do. And then do it.It will probably mean voting differently and standing with our native brothers and sisters as if their issues are our issues too.

Last edited by comadre; 03-02-2013 at 01:11 PM..
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Old 03-02-2013, 01:21 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by comadre View Post
That is NOT what I meant Goggen.

I'm not so sure about the "considering oneself responsible" or standing by them because it's a "white man's problem." I'm not into pointing fingers or eating blame.I also can not see productivity coming from the us and them philosophy that seems to pervade this country. I'm just saying that if something is wrong then it's wrong. If a community hurts then the whole land and all it's inhabitants should be concerned.
So when you said this is not your business because you are white, it made me do a heads up and I thought, huh? What does your color (or lack thereof) have to do with anything? I watch too many non native people turn their heads on every issue that touches native community and it drives me bonkers to try to figure out WHY.
It's as if they see it as an us and them world.

Goggen if you were walking down the street and seen my children struggling and passed them by with no offer to help because you were "white" I'd think you strange indeed my friend.

I'm not suggesting we butt into native issues with our own solutions.On the contrary. Rather I think it's high time to ask the native community what we can do. And then do it.It will probably mean voting differently and standing with our native brothers and sisters as if their issues are our issues too.
Thanks for making it all more clear! I'm a little bit slow from time to time!!! lol

If I one day walk down your street, seeing a child struggle, I would do my best helping, without comparing skincolor or anything.
I would help that child as she/he was MY child!!!!
And I would do the same for a person having drunk to much, if my help was accepted.
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Old 03-02-2013, 01:39 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoggenGH View Post
Thanks for making it all more clear! I'm a little bit slow from time to time!!! lol

If I one day walk down your street, seeing a child struggle, I would do my best helping, without comparing skincolor or anything.
I would help that child as she/he was MY child!!!!
And I would do the same for a person having drunk to much, if my help was accepted.
My illustration about children probably should have been more like ~if you were walking down the street and saw a person of native lineage......(instead of children). But you got the point.

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Old 03-06-2013, 02:30 PM   #207
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Some are like Rose and can drink and stop at will. This is not so with many others...including me.

Yeah, I can stop at one or two....DAYS!!! Three days is my limit.
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:18 PM   #208
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I tend to write a lot (volume) but I am feeling pointed, today.

If we blame the nearby folks that sell beer for our alchoholism issues we're as dumb as that human who litigated McDonald's for being burned from coffee she purchased that was hot.

Regardless of how the case turned out -- sometimes it's easier to pay than to even deal with a court case -- we all consider that lame, right?

So is this.

Drunk Indians are caused by Indians that drink to excess, nothing more or less. Now, we can try to generate some sort of genetic condition that positions us for dependency as a social excuse but that doesn't change where ultimate responsibility resides: with US.
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Old 03-06-2013, 09:07 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Drunk Indians are caused by Indians that drink to excess, nothing more or less. Now, we can try to generate some sort of genetic condition that positions us for dependency as a social excuse but that doesn't change where ultimate responsibility resides: with US.
Absolutely.

Well said.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:54 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by comadre View Post
First I want to ask where you pulled your stats from? You did not identify the means in which you obtained this info.Working in the field of substance abuse I can tell you that the numbers will vary depending on the research reported.
Concerning the genetic connection (It has been a while since I have worked in this field) it seems the last I knew of there still had not been a genetic marker found in anyone that could identify, much less predispose one to alcoholism.Perhaps that has changed since I last studied the subject.
What I have found however is a definite pattern of generalization about alcoholism concerning the native community. Usually coming from the non native community and not from a native.It always saddens me to hear of such generalizing as it always fuels stereotyping which then of coarse breeds prejudice.
the reference Wyo posted is exactly what I would have referenced.
Thanks Wyo. And I'm not generalizing, I think I speak a little more candidly because I'm more than familiar with the subject and I'm not very politically correct, and from what I've experienced, and forget that not everyone realizes from what angle I'm coming from.


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Originally Posted by comadre View Post
On the issue of being poor or living in poverty.
Many of my native friends have told me that if one has an adequate amount of family and friends then you are rich.And of coarse, because wealth as we all know is spread differently in native community than it is elsewhere. My point? simply that we should be careful how we define what poor is before we use it as a contributing factor to anything at all.
I never said that poverty was a cause, but can play a factor in to why one would chose to drink. "Things are rough, I'm tired of stressing over ......, I'm just gonna get drunk and forget it...." Heard that one alot.

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Originally Posted by comadre View Post
This thread is concerning the socio issue in Whiteclay, South Dakota. The only comment I have to this is that my hat goes off to the social workers and therapists seeking to bring healing to that community and thank God Almighty you rezrazed are not in community activism as your faith in community change seems lagging.
I was asked a question based on my experience and that is what I gave. With all due respect comadre, I don't think you know the first thing about my faith in any matter, nor my contribution to my community, or the efforts to change it. I think this may be a little presumptuous of you and quite truthfully a little disrespectful.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:07 PM   #211
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Here's how I see the issue in a nutshell:

The Pine Ridge rez has tried to do something regarding the problem by creating a "DRY REZ". White Clay is trying to circumvent this by selling alcohol right at the border, the majority of sales of which are headed right back across the "DRY" border.

So SUE 'EM!!
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:12 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo_rose View Post
Here's how I see the issue in a nutshell:

The Pine Ridge rez has tried to do something regarding the problem by creating a "DRY REZ". White Clay is trying to circumvent this by selling alcohol right at the border, the majority of sales of which are headed right back across the "DRY" border.

So SUE 'EM!!
For what? Selling a legal substance in a legal area?

If there's an issue, it's those folks who legally purchase than bootleg to an illegal area.

Do you know who that is?

It's still the drunk Indians.

White Clay isn't circumventing anything, the consumer is.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:30 PM   #213
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It's a socioeconomic issues disguised as an alcohol issue.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:56 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
For what? Selling a legal substance in a legal area?

If there's an issue, it's those folks who legally purchase than bootleg to an illegal area.

Do you know who that is?

It's still the drunk Indians.

White Clay isn't circumventing anything, the consumer is.
Isn't the real complaint, underlying everything that alcohol is costing the community, socially and economically? This isn't just an Indian problem but a problem everywhere, especially where I live. So, if any group of people, like there are dry counties here and different laws in different states, wants to limit or restrict alcohol sales, so be it if they have the support of the people. I make my own alcohol to cook with.

But there is no getting around the fact that alcohol is a mind-altering toxic substance. It will kill you in high doses, some people in relatively low doses. There is no way to know which kind of person you are. Because it is a mind-altering substance, you can become intoxicated enough to accidently kill yourself.

The same can be said of airplane glue.

However alcohol is addicting, and airplane glue is not.
While coffee is addicting, it will not kill you.

I say, sue the manufacturers, who are making all the money, and get non-Indians to help you, or better yet, have the government force alcohol and tobacco companies to pay for the medical and other treatment costs and also for medicines and nicotine products to people who request to quit and cannot afford them. They will pass this back to the consumer through price increases.

Either that or force every alcoholic to keep a bank account with enough money in it to pay for their own treatment and damages resulting from their drinking, including liver transplant, so over a million. This will never happen.

An alcoholic only needs to stay sober for 6 months to qualify for a new liver. this takes away from people who do not drink but have illnesses outside of their control, like cancer or hereditary conditions. And some return to drinking once they get the new liver.

Last edited by muskrat_skull; 03-12-2013 at 02:59 PM.. Reason: clarity
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:36 PM   #215
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But there is no getting around the fact that alcohol is a mind-altering toxic substance.
So is tobacco.

I see your point(s) and appreciate them but you're missing the foundational bedrock of the entire enterprise: IT'S LEGAL TO PURCHASE.

What is done with it by the consumer past that is the fault of the consumer.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:37 PM   #216
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It's a socioeconomic issues disguised as an alcohol issue.
I disagree, its an alcohol issue!

Its an issue that affects all socioeconomic classes at some level and I know some people in all socioeconomic classes who do not drink or abuse alcohol and I know some who do.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:42 PM   #217
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I disagree, its an alcohol issue!

Its an issue that affects all socioeconomic classes at some level and I know some people in all socioeconomic classes who do not drink or abuse alcohol and I know some who do.
However it affects those in lower socioeconomic classes more than it does those in higher ones.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:45 PM   #218
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However it affects those in lower socioeconomic classes more than it does those in higher ones.
But it is an alchol issue.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:53 PM   #219
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But it is an alchol issue.
No, it's not: it's an irresponsible use issue.
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:03 PM   #220
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However it affects those in lower socioeconomic classes more than it does those in higher ones.
Not if you don't have money to buy it! Being an alcoholic is kind of expensive, especially if you're good at it!

I think there's plenty of rich drunks, just they cover it up better or no one calls them out on it.

But joking aside, I think its because poorer people can't afford treatment and may have poor people's syndrome (sitting around feeling sorry for yourself). The only thing you can do if you are poor is to try to keep your chin up and find ways to bring in income and better your life, like plant a garden, make things, hunt, do whatever you have to.

I'm not a fan of the protestant work ethic, maybe the world would be better if none of us worked, who knows?
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