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Old 03-12-2013, 05:05 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
No, it's not: it's an irresponsible use issue.
No, its a product liability issue.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:06 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
No, it's not: it's an irresponsible use issue.
Pretty much everything can be described as irresponsible if one knows it causes an adverse situation/condition. Everybody is not irresponsible with the same things so to differentiate it for example a person who is addicted to alcohol - I view it as an alcohol issue, the irresponsible use piece is a given in my book.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:25 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
So is tobacco.

I see your point(s) and appreciate them but you're missing the foundational bedrock of the entire enterprise: IT'S LEGAL TO PURCHASE.

What is done with it by the consumer past that is the fault of the consumer.
There are plenty of products that are legal that can cause harm, asbestos is still in use. The manufacturers need to have a plan, liability insurance, money set aside in funds, etc. to deal with damages caused by their product.

If a two drink maximum was imposed worldwide, and only little nip bottles of alcohol were legal and you could only buy two a day, if bars could only sell you two drinks, even if all of this was perfectly enforced, there would still be people that go into liver failure on two drinks and require a transplant. Is it their fault? They drank responsibly.

I agree, you can't legislate morality and responsibility, though they try pretty hard and it almost never works. But you can make sure that the bills get paid by the people profitting. For them its just a cost of doing business.

Heck as it consultants, we all had to have liability insurance. Crazy. Because we are human and can make mistakes. We are inferior products I guess.
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:16 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
No, its a product liability issue.
Caused by irresponsible use.
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:20 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Caused by irresponsible use.
Can a responsible drinker become an alcoholic, due to it's addictive properties and social norms?
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Old 03-12-2013, 07:02 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
Can a responsible drinker become an alcoholic, due to it's addictive properties and social norms?
No.

Because, at that point, he's an irresponsible drinker.

Here's the rub: people say blame people, not guns, but we're not willing to extend the same argument to other things that can be abused?

It doesn't exist both ways.
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Old 03-12-2013, 07:27 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
No.

Because, at that point, he's an irresponsible drinker.

Here's the rub: people say blame people, not guns, but we're not willing to extend the same argument to other things that can be abused?

It doesn't exist both ways.
I agree with the gun part. Where I used to live we had a drive-thru where you could by guns, ammo and liquor. Pretty convenient!

The argument I would make is that guns don't alter peoples thinking, their mental frame of mind, but once people in florida were allowed to shoot each other legally, they all went nuts.
I would also say that guns are not addictive, but I have friends who never have enough guns.

To me, a gun is like a hammer. Something you need, especially on a farm out in the country, its a tool. To some people, it is power.

Another point might be that people have accomplished things with guns, eome of them are generally agreed upon as good things, defending our nation, protecting families, etc. Not much good comes from drinking.

Alcohol is marketed and viewed by alot of people as fun in a bottle, an escape. If people viewed it as just a beverage, maybe things would be different.

Also, if an alcoholic has one drink, they can totally relapse. Their drinking may have been irresponsible in the first place, causing them to become an alcoholic, but once it happens, then there is no such thing as "responsible" drinking for them.
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Old 03-12-2013, 07:33 PM   #228
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In the scope of Alcoholism it's a personal or even personality issue, you either have and addictive personality or you do not.

In the scope of Whiteclay I believe it's a morals and ethics issue. It is VERY Legal to sell alcohol in Whiteclay. But doesn't make it moral or ethical, when your "TARGET" consumer base are NAtives with a HIGH alcoholism rate. It's targeting because it is VERY MUCH fish in a barrel hunting. The fact is the U.S. Government has task forces set aside specifically for con artist who spend their days figuring out new ways of getting old people, most of which do not have the sharp mental stability they once had, to break into their life saving and then eventually bleed them dry. That in essence is really all that Whiteclay is, only this scam is led by the U.S Federal Government. I say that because, how many Millions of $ are they receiving in taxes again from Whiteclay? AGAIN its a follow the $$$$ trail kind of solution.

Zeke, out of curiosity, even though it is legal, do you "personally" believe it to be moral or ethical that liquor stores are placed at the border of reservations, on the basis of knowing that the Natives, especially those with alcohol abuse issues, will come and buy
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Old 03-12-2013, 07:43 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
The argument I would make is that guns don't alter peoples thinking, their mental frame of mind, but once people in florida were allowed to shoot each other legally, they all went nuts.
I would also say that guns are not addictive, but I have friends who never have enough guns.
Sounds like it could lend itself to obssessive / compulsive behavior, in effect it does affect their thinking and level of functioning to a certain extent.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:39 PM   #230
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Sounds like it could lend itself to obssessive / compulsive behavior, in effect it does affect their thinking and level of functioning to a certain extent.
Yeah, when does it cross the line...I guess when you end up on hoarders with the police coming in trying to find all the firearms that you didn't even remember you had.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:11 PM   #231
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I'm typing this on my phone so I'm not going to quote and all that jazz because it sucks on the phone.

I've said it before I believe if anyone outside of the individual is responsible for the. ess in the White Clay and Pine Ridge area are the beer stores. They are the ones taking advantage of the situation not the beer manufacturers.

Also, to those of you who propose a hike in alcohol prices to fund some sort of program for alcoholics - which will present itself as a tax and another government run program (which will fail). Why should I, a responsible adult, have to pay more for alcohol because some people are irresponsible?

This is sounding like the Soda laws that Michael Bloomburg, the moron nanny state big government whacko from NY, proposed on restaurants and eateries regarding the max size soda that a person can buy.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:19 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
I've said it before I believe if anyone outside of the individual is responsible for the. ess in the White Clay and Pine Ridge area are the beer stores. They are the ones taking advantage of the situation not the beer manufacturers.
Nobody is responsible other than the individuals buying and consuming the booze . The store in WhiteClay is just doing what businesses do and that is to make a profit.

Do I think they (store owners) could be more sensitive to the challenges - absolutely, but they are operating legally. And yes I think something needs to be done to address the issue. But lets not points fingers and blame others - as far as I am concerned no one is holding a gun to someone's head telling them to drink alcohol.

Lets say that the stores in WhiteClay closed, I bet people will be traveling and making runs to other towns get booze, alcoholics will always find a way to get booze, with the increased travel to other cities one might see an increase in auto accidents involving alcohol.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:14 AM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
I'm typing this on my phone so I'm not going to quote and all that jazz because it sucks on the phone.

I've said it before I believe if anyone outside of the individual is responsible for the. ess in the White Clay and Pine Ridge area are the beer stores. They are the ones taking advantage of the situation not the beer manufacturers.

Also, to those of you who propose a hike in alcohol prices to fund some sort of program for alcoholics - which will present itself as a tax and another government run program (which will fail). Why should I, a responsible adult, have to pay more for alcohol because some people are irresponsible?

This is sounding like the Soda laws that Michael Bloomburg, the moron nanny state big government whacko from NY, proposed on restaurants and eateries regarding the max size soda that a person can buy.
Where do you think the money comes from now to pay for these people, the costs associate with drunk driving, court ordered rehab and mental health, kids put in foster care, assaults, disability due to alcohol? THE GOVERNMENT.

What we have now is a failing government run program that takes goods and services away from the elderly, disabled kids, and other sick and disabled people so that they can pay for care for alcoholics, drug addicts, and smokers.

We all are paying right now already to take care of these people through increased medical and insurance costs and through federal, state and local taxes that fund these programs and medical care for these people.... now already!

My idea is to make people who drink alcohol responsible for their drinking.

Why should someone who doesn't drink pay for medical care for an alcoholic, or even a non-alcoholic with an alcohol related condition or injury or detox or whatever other cost is incurred by them, through our current tax system?

Heck people have no problem with passing laws to exempt older individuals from paying school taxes, even though a good case can be made that education of youth benefits them pretty directly, even in old age.

This same group of people wants higher federal, state and local taxes and increased medical and insurance costs to pay for people who are knowingly and willfully killing themselves and acting badly while doing it, doing harm to children and spouses and the general public?

Baker Act them all, I say. They are a danger to themselves and others. And the alcoholics and smokers too.

Not to mention the organs that could be used on people who didn't drink or smoke, since we always have massive shortages of those.

I'd rather have a choice as to whether I'd be taxed through alcohol and tobacco purchases than be forced through my ever-increasing taxes and medical and insurance costs, to pay for them.

If they taxed alcohol to pay for these costs instead of paying for through increased cost of medical care,insurance, and higher taxes, then our taxes can decrease, the cost of medical care and insurance will be lower, so the right wingers can keep that precious crappy private pay system they want. It requires some abstract thinking granted to understand this, but it is a fairly simple concept.

I'm sick of paying for smokers too. I can't afford to go to the doctor or get a procedure done because some people want to party to the point they end up in the hospital or jail getting court mandated medical services. Heavy smokers are getting lung transplants now.

It affects grant funding, all government funding, since these people end up disabled, on medicare and/or medicaid, or some form of grant funded financial assistance, and also assistance from the pharmaceutical companies, who make up the difference on cancer patients and people who have life-threatening conditions.

If you drink or smoke you should pay for your own potential and future damages and recovery. The government should not be footing the bill for these people.

Don't muddy the water with Bloomberg, he's just an idiot. We have plenty of them on both sides. Sorry bout this being long for your phone.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:05 AM   #234
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Zeke, out of curiosity, even though it is legal, do you "personally" believe it to be moral or ethical that liquor stores are placed at the border of reservations, on the basis of knowing that the Natives, especially those with alcohol abuse issues, will come and buy?
Yes.

Nobody is putting a gun to their head...
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:12 AM   #235
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If you drink or smoke you should pay for your own potential and future damages and recovery. The government should not be footing the bill for these people.

I do smoke and I do take responsibility for my CHOICE, if it ever comes down to me needing medical treatment for any damage I have caused to myself...if I can't afford to go to the doctor then to me my time is up due to my CHOICE. I am a social drinker and the same thing applies.
So many times people do not take responsibility for choices that they make, it's like blaming your Mother or Father for choices you make in your life....it is the path YOU chose!
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:02 AM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
Where do you think the money comes from now to pay for these people, the costs associate with drunk driving, court ordered rehab and mental health, kids put in foster care, assaults, disability due to alcohol? THE GOVERNMENT.

What we have now is a failing government run program that takes goods and services away from the elderly, disabled kids, and other sick and disabled people so that they can pay for care for alcoholics, drug addicts, and smokers.

We all are paying right now already to take care of these people through increased medical and insurance costs and through federal, state and local taxes that fund these programs and medical care for these people.... now already!
Have you ever noticed that most of the federally run programs fail? They always seem to have budget problems, over spending on things that the private sector somehow manages to run just fine. Remember the $16 muffin fiasco a few years ago? Heck even Amtrak is running on an insanely tight budget but then again they over spend and take too long to do things - EX it's going to take 30 to 50 years to install a somewhat high speed line from Boston to DC (500 miles). China built a 1500 miles true high speed line in a fraction of that. So 30 to 50 years means billions and billions of dollars and a lot of waste.

I'm not saying everything the government does fails because there are programs that only the government can get off the ground because the private sector lacks the funding for the R&D - EX NASA got us into space and now private companies like SpaceX are beginning to send stuff up.



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My idea is to make people who drink alcohol responsible for their drinking.
They already are. There are laws that punish you for alcohol misuse, like drunk driving and public intoxication. Misuse too may times and your body punishes you with liver failure, liver cancer, and a host of other potentially terminal illnesses.

Quote:
Why should someone who doesn't drink pay for medical care for an alcoholic, or even a non-alcoholic with an alcohol related condition or injury or detox or whatever other cost is incurred by them, through our current tax system?
A non-drinker shouldn't have to pay a cent but unfortunately with the way the government run healthcare works it would cost too much money to filter through them.



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I'd rather have a choice as to whether I'd be taxed through alcohol and tobacco purchases than be forced through my ever-increasing taxes and medical and insurance costs, to pay for them.

If they taxed alcohol to pay for these costs instead of paying for through increased cost of medical care,insurance, and higher taxes, then our taxes can decrease, the cost of medical care and insurance will be lower, so the right wingers can keep that precious crappy private pay system they want. It requires some abstract thinking granted to understand this, but it is a fairly simple concept.
Our taxes will never decrease as the feds and the states see taxing alcohol as a new revenue source and not an alternative to other taxes. Also the verdict is still far from reached on whether or not the federally run health care program will actually work. I think they are going to run into serious issues. A combination of both private and federally backed insurance plans may work. Take a look at the issues faced by the IHS. The private pay system works albeit at a high cost. The healthcare law did bring about some great changes that are common sense like not excluding people with per-existing conditions.


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I'm sick of paying for smokers too. I can't afford to go to the doctor or get a procedure done because some people want to party to the point they end up in the hospital or jail getting court mandated medical services. Heavy smokers are getting lung transplants now.
How are they causing your trip to the doctor to rise in cost? There may be incremental increases over the years on your healthcare premiums and medicare taxes. Do those increases drop your take home pay low enough that you are having trouble paying co-pays or medications? I'm not judging you there but I'm confused to as how they are having such a huge impact on your healthcare spending.


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Don't muddy the water with Bloomberg, he's just an idiot. We have plenty of them on both sides. Sorry bout this being long for your phone.
I'm going to muddy the water with him because he is a prime example of the typical ultra liberal statist with the mindset of let the government take care of you and tell you what you can and can't do while slowly taking away your rights, lawful freedom of choice, and your guns. Yeah we do have plenty of them on all sides. I personally am fairly liberal but I border on the libertarian edge of the political diamond.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:12 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by lbgood View Post
Nobody is responsible other than the individuals buying and consuming the booze . The store in WhiteClay is just doing what businesses do and that is to make a profit.

Do I think they (store owners) could be more sensitive to the challenges - absolutely, but they are operating legally. And yes I think something needs to be done to address the issue. But lets not points fingers and blame others - as far as I am concerned no one is holding a gun to someone's head telling them to drink alcohol.

Lets say that the stores in WhiteClay closed, I bet people will be traveling and making runs to other towns get booze, alcoholics will always find a way to get booze, with the increased travel to other cities one might see an increase in auto accidents involving alcohol.
Sorry I truncated too much of the previous post you were quoting because I hate typing on my phone. Now I'm at my desk.

Quote:
"I believe if anyone outside of the individual is responsible for the mess in the White Clay and Pine Ridge area are the beer stores."
What I really mean is that would be the ultra-extreme maximum if another entity outside of the individual drinker were to be responsible. They can be held responsible for certain things as they have been caught breaking the laws numerous times, however the laws are rarely enforced.

Personally I think the buck stops at the user. The alcohol companies have done their part. They label their products and their adverts say "Enjoy Responsibly".

I wonder if people are going to start suing casinos in droves because they blew all their money and then some gambling...?
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:30 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
Have you ever noticed that most of the federally run programs fail? They always seem to have budget problems, over spending on things that the private sector somehow manages to run just fine. Remember the $16 muffin fiasco a few years ago? Heck even Amtrak is running on an insanely tight budget but then again they over spend and take too long to do things - EX it's going to take 30 to 50 years to install a somewhat high speed line from Boston to DC (500 miles). China built a 1500 miles true high speed line in a fraction of that. So 30 to 50 years means billions and billions of dollars and a lot of waste.

I'm not saying everything the government does fails because there are programs that only the government can get off the ground because the private sector lacks the funding for the R&D - EX NASA got us into space and now private companies like SpaceX are beginning to send stuff up.
Agreed. But I'm not talking about the government doing it, I'm talking about the alcohol and tobacco companies paying for it, which they will pass along to the customer no doubt. I'm not saying they can't sell it, they just have to pay for the damage it causes.

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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
They already are. There are laws that punish you for alcohol misuse, like drunk driving and public intoxication. Misuse too may times and your body punishes you with liver failure, liver cancer, and a host of other potentially terminal illnesses.
We were talking about alcoholics paying financially for their resulting illness and other financial costs to society. You are describing how they run up the bill. I really don't care about punishing them, they have a right to drink, they should have the obligation to pay for it.

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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
A non-drinker shouldn't have to pay a cent but unfortunately with the way the government run healthcare works it would cost too much money to filter through them.
Actually filtering out the alcoholics and smokers is easy, and is being done already by private insurance, who doesn't want to pay the cost and dumps them on the public system. Doctors filter patients out all the time. The doctors do the filtering now. They will still prescribe the same treatments, whether rehab, transplant, medications, etc. but the costs would be paid by the alcohol and tobacco companies funds, like with asbestos or any product liability case, only hopefully streamlined.

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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
Our taxes will never decrease as the feds and the states see taxing alcohol as a new revenue source and not an alternative to other taxes.
Generally, this is my point of view as well, But something has to be done to take the burden off government run health care and indigent care programs


The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention just released a new study that shows how much society loses because of excessive drinking, and the numbers arenít pretty. Of the $224 billion, almost three quarters of it (72%) is due to lost productivity in the workplace. Health issues (11%), increased law enforcement (9%) and drunk driving accidents (6%) make up the remainder. The researchers break the numbers down in a lot of different useful ways. $224 billion represents an additional social cost of $1.90 for every alcoholic drink, or $746 for every person in the country. (As with most economic studies, the data lags, so it is from the year 2006.)

Read more: The Hidden Costs of Alcohol Abuse in America | Care2 Causes

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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
How are they causing your trip to the doctor to rise in cost? There may be incremental increases over the years on your healthcare premiums and medicare taxes. Do those increases drop your take home pay low enough that you are having trouble paying co-pays or medications? I'm not judging you there but I'm confused to as how they are having such a huge impact on your healthcare spending.
When alcoholics and smokers reach the end of the road so to speak, they become unable to work, and end up on disability. There is a limited amount of money in medicare to pay for these people, so other services are cut and copays raised. For people on a fixed income that have seen only one small $20 increase since Obama took office--and most of whom live at poverty level--this means no care if the copay is to high. A lack of funds in the medicare pool has been cited as the reasoning behind substantial increases in costs. Not to mention the social security they draw.

In addition, if they don't qualify for disability or do but for a low amount, they take resources from medicaid and dhr funding which affects grants across the board, or limited tribal resources. States and agencies begin denying more people and more services, including young working men and women just starting out with legitimate health needs, that have no other insurance. So medicare becomes only for pregnant women and children.

The children of alcoholics with fetal alcohol syndrome also draw. While it is no fault of their own, this syndrome is avoidable.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:41 PM   #239
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Yes.

Nobody is putting a gun to their head...
WOW! Well if nothing else I ALWAYS respected your honesty, I guess even though we agree a lot on the personal responsibility aspect, we definitely disagree on the moral and ethical issue. Legal yes, but to me I don't find it very ethical or moral to place 3 liquor stores in town with a population of 14. Knowing that 99.9999999999% of their customer base has an alcohol problem. To me, it's no different than con artists scamming the elderly. My opinion. though.
Thanks Zeke
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:56 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by rezrazed View Post
WOW! Well if nothing else I ALWAYS respected your honesty, I guess even though we agree a lot on the personal responsibility aspect, we definitely disagree on the moral and ethical issue. Legal yes, but to me I don't find it very ethical or moral to place 3 liquor stores in town with a population of 14. Knowing that 99.9999999999% of their customer base has an alcohol problem. To me, it's no different than con artists scamming the elderly. My opinion. though.
Thanks Zeke
So you're quantifying the morality of something based upon the population base of where it is legally available?

Somehow, that seems an inefficient mode of thought and the idea that anyone is being scammed here is the same sort of uber-victimization thinking that keeps many Rez Natives as virtual second class citizens in third world countries.

We're discussing a legal product produced by a vendor, purchased legally by a patron, then transported illegally by a trafficker and used irresponsibly by the consumer. (Note how the definitions change? That's due to the consumer.) Nothing bad has occurred here until the PURCHASER acts with slimy intent.

That's WAY different than generating an illegal pyramid scheme then pressuring little old ladies to invest their life savings with slimy and malicious intent to defraud them of their funds. That's evil from jump and the fault of the vendor.

It's NOT the same.
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