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Old 03-15-2013, 08:50 AM   #241
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Now if only @Zeke would take a similar stance when it comes to Firearms...
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:37 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
Now if only @Zeke would take a similar stance when it comes to Firearms...
Except, of course, firearms are DESIGNED to kill.

Their very existence is an affront to population safety.

When you can prove alcohol is same, I'll consider it.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:09 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Except, of course, firearms are DESIGNED to kill.

Their very existence is an affront to population safety.

When you can prove alcohol is same, I'll consider it.
They are designed to protect and to provide a means of obtaining food (hunting), even if that means that something has to die.

Alcohol can prove to be an affront to public safety when someone misuses it and decided to drive a car or do something stupid otherwise that can put many innocent people in harms way. Just as guns are only affront when someone misuses them...


OK enough derailing this thread for now LOL.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:45 PM   #244
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They are designed to protect and to provide a means of obtaining food (hunting), even if that means that something has to die.
Who are you kidding, not true in 2013 - If that what guns were utilized for only - we wouldn't even have this conversation. But guns are used for killing of innocent individuals and it needs to be addressed. No one wants to take guns away all together, just limit the high capacity rounds and the baning of assault weapons

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Alcohol can prove to be an affront to public safety when someone misuses it and decided to drive a car or do something stupid otherwise that can put many innocent people in harms way. Just as guns are only affront when someone misuses them...
Alcohol is different in that the primary person who is affected adversely is the individual who consumes the alcohol. Nobody is walkng into schools or malls ordering people to drink alcohol.

Nothing is going to be perfect, despite laws and bans - someone will fall thru the cracks and get an assault weapon. The same with an individual who drinks who has no drivers license may steal a car and get behind a wheel and cause injury.

If it can be made more difficult for the above to happen - then it is totally worth it - again nothing is perfect, but lets pull our heads out and look at the situation objectively.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:14 PM   #245
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[QUOTE=lbgood;1561499]Who are you kidding, not true in 2013 - If that what guns were utilized for only - we wouldn't even have this conversation. But guns are used for killing of innocent individuals and it needs to be addressed. No one wants to take guns away all together, just limit the high capacity rounds and the baning of assault weapons

People kill people, with guns, knives, hammers, ropes, drugs and chemicals and their own bare hands.

Only city dwellers or suburbanites think guns are only used to kill people. Live in rural areas, the woods, the swamp, the mountains or up in Canada where there are alot of bears and tell me you won't have a gun. Outsiders, who normally are so against guns, are so cowardly when they come down here they kill snakes with guns.

Around here, people are poor and hunt to eat. We actually have programs that distribute deer meat to poor people.

Not everyone has a police force to patrol their land and dispatch wild creatures.

So ban them in particular areas, like the cities and burbs, if you really want to. Those people will get them anyway or find other ways to kill each other.

People wrongfully kill people because of a mental condition, something an inanimate object like a gun is incapable of.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:22 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Except, of course, firearms are DESIGNED to kill.

Their very existence is an affront to population safety.

When you can prove alcohol is same, I'll consider it.
Actually, alcohol is designed to kill, and is poisonous. The intoxicating affects you feel are the result of damage to the brain. Even in the tiniest doses applied to the skin, alcohol is hepatotoxic, which is why transplant patients are warned against using perfume or cologne, because even that small amount of alcohol applied to the skin is toxic to someone with a weakened liver.

The degree of damage alcohol does varies based on the health of the person drinking it and the amount and length of time it is consumed. To say it is not designed to kill, actually, I think it is worse that it is not marketed that honestly.

The stronger and stronger strengths of alcohol being produced and marketed attest to the increasing amount of damage (ie intoxication) the producers aim to achieve.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:43 PM   #247
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People kill people, with guns, knives, hammers, ropes, drugs and chemicals and their own bare hands.

Only city dwellers or suburbanites think guns are only used to kill people. Live in rural areas, the woods, the swamp, the mountains or up in Canada where there are alot of bears and tell me you won't have a gun. Outsiders, who normally are so against guns, are so cowardly when they come down here they kill snakes with guns.

Around here, people are poor and hunt to eat. We actually have programs that distribute deer meat to poor people.

Not everyone has a police force to patrol their land and dispatch wild creatures.

So ban them in particular areas, like the cities and burbs, if you really want to. Those people will get them anyway or find other ways to kill each other.

People wrongfully kill people because of a mental condition, something an inanimate object like a gun is incapable of.
I don't think anyone is disputing what you are say'n - again the focus is on assault weapons, there is no need for them.

Yes - people kill by other means, but again the focus is mass killings and how they can be prevented.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:50 PM   #248
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Actually, alcohol is designed to kill, and is poisonous.
Some alcohol are designed to kill, some are designed to be consumed and please, I guess it goes back to the type of alcohol involved and its usage. With that said, responsible usage is important.
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:25 PM   #249
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Some alcohol are designed to kill, some are designed to be consumed and please, I guess it goes back to the type of alcohol involved and its usage. With that said, responsible usage is important.
"Alcohol is related to parties, good times, celebrations and fun, but it is also related to murder, suicide, unemployment and child abuse. These connections are never made in the ads. Of course, one would not expect them to be. The advertisers are selling their product and it is their job to erase any negative aspects as well as to enhance the positive ones. However, when the product is the nation's number one drug, there are consequences that go far beyond product sales.

Most people know that alcohol can cause problems. But how many realize that 10 percent of all deaths in the United States - including half of all homicides and at least one quarter of all suicides - are related to alcohol? The economic cost to the nation exceeds $100 billion a year. At least 13,000,000 Americans, about one out of 10, are alcoholic - the personal cost to them and their families is incalculable.

The tab for alcohol use doesn't end there. More than $2 billion a year - a sizable chunk of the over $90 billion the industry takes in annually - goes to prime the advertising and promotion pump and keep drinkers' money flowing freely. Problem drinkers and young people are the primary targets of these advertisers."

Deadly Persuasion: 7 Myths Alcohol Advertisers Want You to Believe | Center for Media Literacy

Sounds like alcohol kills more people than guns!
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:48 PM   #250
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Sounds like alcohol kills more people than guns!
Alcohol - people usually kill themselves by irresponsible consumption. Guns - if killed by gun shot, usually shot by another person(mass killings included).
(of course there are exceptions in all cases).
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:29 PM   #251
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Alcohol - people usually kill themselves by irresponsible consumption. Guns - if killed by gun shot, usually shot by another person(mass killings included).
(of course there are exceptions in all cases).
Well, except that half of all homicides and one quarter of all suicides - are related to alcohol. That doesn't count assaults and other crimes and accidents that aren't fatal.

People get drunk and hurt other people. It's a fact. Not every person who drinks, but a substantial number of people. Some intentionally and some through drunk driving or other binge drinking related stunts. Many of these people would not have committed crimes had they been sober. But drunk, they would still commit the crimes whether they had a gun available or not, because it is the desire in the mind to commit the crime that causes crime...not the weapon.

The argument I would use against assault weapons or at least ultra-high capacity clips, would not be based on crime prevention so much as the ability thwart the crime once it starts, or to lesson the damage.

I was wrong about alcohol killing more people, about two thirds of murders take place with firearms. But the murder rate has been going down in the last few years, which was a surprise. So 50% of all the murders, regardless of weapons, would be affected if alcohol was removed from the equation.

It does play more of a role than guns in non-fatal violence though.

Drinking proceeds acts of family violence in 25 to 50% of all cases of domestic violence.
Substance abusers are violent more frequently and inflict more serious injuries. They are more likely to attack partners sexually, and are more likely to be violent outside the home than non-substance abusers.
Alcohol and drug abuse increase the likelihood of domestic violence; not only during periods of intoxication, but also during periods of sobriety.
Highest rates of abuse are found in moderate to heavy drinkers (not heaviest drinkers). Chronic use of alcohol is a better predicator of battering than acute intoxication.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:39 PM   #252
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Drinking proceeds acts of family violence in 25 to 50% of all cases of domestic violence.
Substance abusers are violent more frequently and inflict more serious injuries. They are more likely to attack partners sexually, and are more likely to be violent outside the home than non-substance abusers.
Alcohol and drug abuse increase the likelihood of domestic violence; not only during periods of intoxication, but also during periods of sobriety.
Highest rates of abuse are found in moderate to heavy drinkers (not heaviest drinkers). Chronic use of alcohol is a better predicator of battering than acute intoxication.
And yet people continue to behave irresponsibly by drinking, its a domino effect, if the individual took personal responsibility and did not abuse alcohol the above would not be an issue.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:47 PM   #253
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People get drunk and hurt other people. It's a fact. Not every person who drinks, but a substantial number of people. Some intentionally and some through drunk driving or other binge drinking related stunts. Many of these people would not have committed crimes had they been sober. But drunk, they would still commit the crimes whether they had a gun available or not, because it is the desire in the mind to commit the crime that causes crime...not the weapon.
You really cant assert that with any real validity.
There are many factors that may influence an individual to take their assualt weapons and carry out the unthinkable. Alcohol and/or drugs may or may not be involved, hopelessness, loss, desperation, retaliation etc.... could be a whole mixture of influences. but the thing they had in common is the assault weapon to carry out their madness.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:30 PM   #254
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And yet people continue to behave irresponsibly by drinking, its a domino effect, if the individual took personal responsibility and did not abuse alcohol the above would not be an issue.
I would accept that if alcohol wasn't known to be mind-altering and to lower inhibitions.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:45 PM   #255
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You really cant assert that with any real validity.
There are many factors that may influence an individual to take their assualt weapons and carry out the unthinkable. Alcohol and/or drugs may or may not be involved, hopelessness, loss, desperation, retaliation etc.... could be a whole mixture of influences. but the thing they had in common is the assault weapon to carry out their madness.
But here you say...
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And yet people continue to behave irresponsibly by drinking, its a domino effect, if the individual took personal responsibility and did not abuse alcohol the above would not be an issue.
So individuals are expected to be able to control their alcohol intake, even though alcohol is addicting and mind-altering, but personal responsibility isn't an issue and they don't have to control themselves if a gun or assault weapon is around? The mere presence of an assault weapon or high capacity clip is enough to drive them to go blow everyone away?
What about all the people that own those weapons and high capacity clips that don't go do mass shootings with them?
Why don't police officers commit mass shooting with them, if the gun itself is so corrupting? Why are they different?

Domestic violence is present in a large majority of mass shooting cases. Domestic violence could and should have been a factor in screening for gun ownership. Domestic violence, especially escalated domestic violence, is associated with alcohol use. Also with mental illness, not with gun ownership.

I do agree with you that a ban on high capacity clips and assault weapons would greatly minimize fatalities in mass shootings, which will occur regardless because some people are just nuts.
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Old 03-15-2013, 11:12 PM   #256
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So individuals are expected to be able to control their alcohol intake, even though alcohol is addicting and mind-altering, but personal responsibility isn't an issue and they don't have to control themselves if a gun or assault weapon is around? The mere presence of an assault weapon or high capacity clip is enough to drive them to go blow everyone away?
What about all the people that own those weapons and high capacity clips that don't go do mass shootings with them?
Why don't police officers commit mass shooting with them, if the gun itself is so corrupting? Why are they different?
Even though there may be many factors that may influence, there is still a responsibility on part of the individual. You mention alcoholics - they are some of the smartest people I know, and there is a time when they are sober and they do have good insight and judgement. It is during this time that they can make an informed decision not to drink (be responsible). I do acknowledge that when an alcoholic does take a drink their judgement is impaired until they are fully sober once again. But lets not make excuses for them

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I do agree with you that a ban on high capacity clips and assault weapons would greatly minimize fatalities in mass shootings, which will occur regardless because some people are just nuts.
Amen to that! But the NRA is just worried about the bottom line $$$ and just trying to rally the ill informed and prey on their ignorance claiming their guns (all) are going to be taken away, when it is just those weapons you mention above that is under scrutiny and consideration.
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Old 03-16-2013, 01:36 AM   #257
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Even though there may be many factors that may influence, there is still a responsibility on part of the individual. You mention alcoholics - they are some of the smartest people I know, and there is a time when they are sober and they do have good insight and judgement. It is during this time that they can make an informed decision not to drink (be responsible). I do acknowledge that when an alcoholic does take a drink their judgement is impaired until they are fully sober once again. But lets not make excuses for them
I dunno about smart, I know some really dumb ones and some multigenerational ones where I don't think the mom even sobered up in the delivery room, let alone during pregnancy.

I know some that are multigenerational criminals as well as alcoholics and that have stabbed their spouses while drunk and gotten into really bad knock down drag out fights drunk and lots of other stuff like that. When they don't have a drink, they are just as mean because they feel like crap. Other really bad stuff too, all centered around alcohol and done while drunk, stinking drunk. To the stage where people aren't even housebroken, don't know where they are, blind drunk. Sober for them is drunk for other people.

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Amen to that! But the NRA is just worried about the bottom line $$$ and just trying to rally the ill informed and prey on their ignorance claiming their guns (all) are going to be taken away, when it is just those weapons you mention above that is under scrutiny and consideration.
The enhanced background checks and screenings are going to be a real privacy issue as far as medical history goes. I strongly oppose these measures but you watch they will pass as American govt and business are obsessed with having access to every bit of info on every person.
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Old 03-24-2013, 02:04 AM   #258
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I was wondering, are there any customs, etiquettes, or rituals about drinking alcohol for nDn’s?

In my culture we have the marketed ‘drink to party’ stuff going on, and alcoholics as well; although we do not have a word for alcoholics, we simply say “those who drink too much.” But we also use alot of customs or cultural ways to drink with others. Basically, drinking is an opportunity to show respect and how cultured you are. Alcohol's significance is social more than it is about alcohol content or getting effe'd up. For example, pouring your own drink means you are socially disconnecting your self, so ppl are conscious to pour each other's. As ceremony, pouring alcohol on a grave is respecting their 'living' spirit and the act of recognizing their presence.

I'm not sure how these customs developed, perhaps after marijuana became banned, but it builds a respectful consciousness and a path for the drinker to contribute and connect with society.

I am aware of tobacco and peyote customs in various nDn cultures, but I haven’t seen it in regards to alcohol. Just wondering if there was a nDn cultural way beyond the ‘war on alcohol.’ Also to suggest, the opportunity to use alcohol to strengthen community.
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Old 03-24-2013, 02:58 AM   #259
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As ceremony, pouring alcohol on a grave is respecting their 'living' spirit and the act of recognizing their presence.
SOLID POST.

I have been taught that anything given to the Earth is a gift to the Old Ones.

I haven't opened a bottle of scotch in twenty years where the first thimble wasn't poured somewhere that it could hit the ground, even if it was off a hotel balcony in a foreign country when I couldn't spell "cat" if you gave me the "C" and the "A" due to consumption.
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:09 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by reocurringdream View Post
I was wondering, are there any customs, etiquettes, or rituals about drinking alcohol for nDn’s?

In my culture we have the marketed ‘drink to party’ stuff going on, and alcoholics as well; although we do not have a word for alcoholics, we simply say “those who drink too much.” But we also use alot of customs or cultural ways to drink with others. Basically, drinking is an opportunity to show respect and how cultured you are. Alcohol's significance is social more than it is about alcohol content or getting effe'd up. For example, pouring your own drink means you are socially disconnecting your self, so ppl are conscious to pour each other's. As ceremony, pouring alcohol on a grave is respecting their 'living' spirit and the act of recognizing their presence.

I'm not sure how these customs developed, perhaps after marijuana became banned, but it builds a respectful consciousness and a path for the drinker to contribute and connect with society.

I am aware of tobacco and peyote customs in various nDn cultures, but I haven’t seen it in regards to alcohol. Just wondering if there was a nDn cultural way beyond the ‘war on alcohol.’ Also to suggest, the opportunity to use alcohol to strengthen community.
http://www.montana.edu/wwwai/imsd/al...historyweb.htm
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Souvenir Alcohol Flasks
Most remarkable of the novelty items connecting Indian with alcohol are the souvenir alcohol flasks featured below. These appear to have been mass-produced and mass marketed to national park gift shops and tourist destinations around the country, probably in the 1950s and 1960s. The graphics are identical, and the name of the tourist place is typically embossed in gold. Many of these are from places that are generally not immediately associated with Indians, including Lincoln's Boyhood Home and the U.S. Capitol. Most remarkable of all, perhaps, is one sold at gift shops at or near the Cherokee Indian Reservation in North Carolina. The front of these flasks typically features a drunken Indian and a reference to "firewater." On the reverse of some are consumption levels, with dergatory names for each level, such as "feelum better" and "wantum sing." The person who drinks the entire flask, is a "dead injun." Front and back views are provided for each flask below.
From below link and there are pictures
Native Americans: The Ignoble Savage: The Drunk Injun

I had my first drink probably before I even knew I had it. Alcohol was commonly wiped on the gums of teething babies, heard family tales of it being put in the bottles of babies. The first drink in a social setting was a glass of wine at dinner at about age three, because I was old enough to likely not spill it. It was a small glass but I was allowed to have refills. It was very sweet like candy so I liked it and I got lightheaded and was told to lay down and not have anymore. We also got the foam off our grandpa's beer and by the time of grade school commonly had wine with adults at dinner but did not overconsume, and would not be disciplined if we took a beer from the fridge.

The desire to overconsume did not occur really occur until I reached jr. high and saw people getting drunk and doing funny stuff and saw it as a rite of passage type thing.

My sister had the same experience. Neither of us are alcoholics. I cannot drink due to my health. I would drink occasionally if I could. My grandmother who was Indian sipped PBR beer from a glass full of ice slowly, maybe two or three a day. She used to drink pretty heavily socially though. She had her favorite bars and people knew her. She was very social. Uncles and grandfather drank more and could be bad.

My sister still drinks socially as do my parents. I continue to make alcohol to cook with and give if people want it. My parents were very much part of the cocktail set as I grew up, care was taken to prepare drinks for guests and know what they preferred. Sometimes we would pretend to play bar as children, with coolaid and pretend to get drunk.

My boyfriend is Apache and Cherokee and alcohol affects him horribly, he gets blind drunk and doesn't know where he is or who anyone is. I have seen this in my ex-father in law too, who is full-blooded, lots of violence and total loss of reality when drunk.

My boyfriend was not brought up learning how to drink, and was not allowed to drink until much older than my sister and I. It was not part of a social occasion or celebration and no care to preparation of cocktails was taken, but just drink from the bottle or jar as part of everyday life, as was drinking to excess and getting violent. He cannot drink a drop or he will not stop.

My family ran taverns, sold or traded alcohol, and were bootleggers and/or made alcohol for generations.
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