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Old 02-11-2012, 12:38 AM   #21
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Let them sue,profits were made,Hope other tribes follow suit.
Companies who sell products knowingly they are hurting people should realize they have to pay a price for what they do.
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:53 AM   #22
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Even the Gambling Addicts get free referrals to counseling from the Casinos.

Gambling is mental and spiritual slavery to a compulsive habit.

Alcohol addiction is way beyond that with a physiological craving, the body takes over.

When you have this in a generational setting, along with a community of hard drinkers, it spreads like bubonic plague.

"Divide and conquer" the Whites always used firewater to mess up the Natives.
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:54 AM   #23
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Too bad they can't come up with some type of test... blood or hair, etc...to see if you will be addicted to alcohol before you can purchase it! Kinda like buying a gun and having to wait to be checked out! But then again that probably wouldn't work either....people will buy it, companies will sell it, lives will be destroyed.... people make choices everyday for good or bad!

I do agree with the Tribe suing the companies because alcohol was banned on the reservation and these companies purposely sold large amounts knowing that the ndn's living there would be their main customers! Some would look at this as being intentional, I do!

I know what alcohol does to an addicted person, I've lived with them for years! I've drank with, fought with, had a great time with, heard the words, " I don't why I do this!" "I don't like what this does to me!" "I know I was an *** last night!"

For years I thought if you really wanted to stop you would, got angry about it, left my home because it....but have come to realize the person will stop only when they are ready! If they stop because they are afraid of losing their family....it doesn't last! The person has to do it for themselves!

I could go on, and on, and on about what it does to a person...but I'll stop here!
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Old 02-11-2012, 11:03 AM   #24
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Step One is to not romanticize it in ANY way.

For example, Sherman Alexie should write books about folks on the reservation getting their car(s) fixed, not driving around in reverse as if it were normal.

I do find it interesting that, in his youth, he made a conscious decision to leave the reservation but now, in his writing, he romanticizes it for the masses?

1. I don't know the guy.
2. I'm not judging.
3. I just don't think it helps.



If the consumer stops, who buys?

Personally, I believe the reason such policies are maintained is because it truly is that simple, folks are just ingenious enough to get around it.

Whether that is the fault of supply or demand is the question...
Why does it have to be an either/or with taking the responsibility? I've noted that when you come down on a side Zeke, that you're an either/or type. When dealing with addictive substances... both the supply and demand have to be addressed and both have to be held accountable.

If it takes a 500 Million dollar law suit to get the supply cut off... then I say, bring on the factums...
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Old 02-11-2012, 11:19 AM   #25
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I say SUE 'EM. They're making $$BIG BUCKS$$ knowing darn well that the majority of their product sold is being transported/consumed illegally.

Although, I think the state or county govt in Nebraska should step in and cut off those liquor licenses.

I'm not saying that will solve the problem, but there will be less drinking if it's not so readily available.

Alcoholism is a complicated issue, with MANY factors, and it seems no single solution will work for every alcoholic. But it is a fact that Native Americans lack a certain gene that helps metabolize alcohol.

It's very evident in the 'detox' center in town where native and non-native drunks are sent after being picked up to 'sleep it off' and stay until they 'blow zeroes'.

The non-natives get down to a 0.0 blood alcohol level LONG before the natives...no matter how high their initial BAC was.
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Old 02-11-2012, 12:49 PM   #26
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Why does it have to be an either/or with taking the responsibility?
Because that's where solutions start.

And we already know that supply-side doesn't work.
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Old 02-11-2012, 12:53 PM   #27
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Because that's where solutions start.

And we already know that supply-side doesn't work.
Here's a concept, make it an equal responsibility... no one gets off the hook. How simple is that?
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:30 PM   #28
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Here's a concept, make it an equal responsibility... no one gets off the hook. How simple is that?
It's too simple because only the end user is doing anything wrong.

Let me re-state: alcohol is legal, taxed, requires age consent, carries a medical warning, is regulated for purity/quality, and is disposed of by merchandisers when out of date.

In sum, it's as heavily controlled as any food commodity allowed on the reservation, perhaps MORE so as milk doesn't require you to be 21.

That Natives buy it and bootleg (while getting drunk) is nobody's fault but their own.
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:41 PM   #29
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We have listen and have lost a lot, we have the knowledge now.
I am saying lets use it and get something back for losing for all those years. Sue the beer companies, collect the money put it to use for the tribe.
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:09 PM   #30
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This looks like this is turning into a case of where people try to sue the gun manufacturer for murders committed by an free-willed individual.

This isn't a case where a drug company knowingly released a medication that is found to have caused birth defects or heart attacks. The alcohol manufacturers are making a product whose effects are well known, documented, and warned against... it's on the label of most bottles, cans or cases.

Personally I don't believe the manufacturer is to blame here. I do think the stores and to a lesser extent the distributor are the ones to blame. The stores are the ones who sold 5 million cans to the residents of Pine Ridge, the stores knowingly sell the alcohol; many times breaking laws in the process, but they don't care because enforcement is almost nonexistent. The distributor that supplies them knows they are selling record amounts of alcohol so they want to continually supply them. Therefore the stores and the distributor know where the alcohol is going and who is drinking it. The distributors don't really report statistics to the manufacturers they only send new orders to them for replenishment.

Unlike the tobacco companies who in the past used bad advertising and targeted children, the alcohol companies always state in their commercials "Please use responsibly" and sometimes make it point to show that someone is being made designated driver.

In sum:
Alcohol manufacturers are not responsible for how their products are used but the bars, stores and distributors can be, and the end user is.
-Just as-
Gun manufacturers are not responsible for murders that someone committed with their products. The gun store could be if they are doing "straw purchases", just like the stores in White Clay are selling to intoxicated people and or allowing them to drink where they are not allowed to.

Now if the alcohol companies want to do something nice like donate a treatment center on the reservations in remembrance or honor of someone's else that would probably be more than welcomed.

In the end I'm going to agree with @soopashinaab and @Zeke
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Old 02-11-2012, 04:51 PM   #31
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ZEKE - I have never dealt with MILK ADDICTS...

TOOLBOX - GUNS require a 2 Week waiting period while criminal background checks are completed, also to make sure the buyer isn't just pissed-off at somebody.



The ALCOHOL problem on Pine Ridge has blown up to proportion that drastic measures are needed.

The Beer Companies sure as hell know where each DROP of beer is headed, they have MARKETERS that are always on top of sales statistics and where each shipment will end up.

If somebody is choking you, and you can't get their hands off your throat, you kick them in the BALLS.

KICK THE BEER COMPANIES IN THE BALLS.

RETURN THE 50 MILE BUFFER ZONE TAKEN AWAY BY PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT.

Then get some qualified help for Pine Ridge Rez, a program and people that have a track record of success.


Rant over!
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Old 02-11-2012, 05:49 PM   #32
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ZEKE - I have never dealt with MILK ADDICTS...
They're called "babies."

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmigoKumeyaay View Post
The ALCOHOL problem on Pine Ridge has blown up to proportion that drastic measures are needed.
Yes. We need to grow up and accept some responsibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmigoKumeyaay View Post
The Beer Companies sure as hell know where each DROP of beer is headed, they have MARKETERS that are always on top of sales statistics and where each shipment will end up.
But they don't force anyone to purchase it.

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If somebody is choking you, and you can't get their hands off your throat, you kick them in the BALLS.
No. First, you accept responsibility for preemptive measures to NOT be choked: especially if/when you're -- metaphorically -- choking yourself.
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:29 PM   #33
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ZEKE - I have never dealt with MILK ADDICTS...

TOOLBOX - GUNS require a 2 Week waiting period while criminal background checks are completed, also to make sure the buyer isn't just pissed-off at somebody.
Maybe in CA, but here and in most states it's as easy as walking in to a store or a show, a 10 minute call for background check, hand dealer money, and walk out. I got mine in 20 minutes the one day, and it took that long because the background check line had technical problems.

Quote:
The ALCOHOL problem on Pine Ridge has blown up to proportion that drastic measures are needed.

The Beer Companies sure as hell know where each DROP of beer is headed, they have MARKETERS that are always on top of sales statistics and where each shipment will end up.

If somebody is choking you, and you can't get their hands off your throat, you kick them in the BALLS.

KICK THE BEER COMPANIES IN THE BALLS.

RETURN THE 50 MILE BUFFER ZONE TAKEN AWAY BY PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT.

Then get some qualified help for Pine Ridge Rez, a program and people that have a track record of success.


Rant over!

I agree something drastic needs to be done and I agree that the beer companies are enjoying the income but they aren't holding guns to anyone's head and forcing them to drink it. I say sue the stores and their distributors.

I also agree that the buffer zone should be re-established. One point to consider, and was brought up in a documentary on the issue, is the fact that the people who want alcohol will find a way to get it and sometimes that means driving to a store in a distant town. If they drink in that town that means they will be intoxicated while driving putting more innocent lives at risk. It can be a catch 22.

If we allow a suit against the alcohol company then we might as well sue Ford, Chevy, Toyota etc. because we have become dependent on them to supply cars and trucks to get to work, store, church etc and at the same time they have facilitated the deaths of tens of thousands of people due to misuse by the drivers themselves. It's not Chevy's fault that people talk or text on their phones while behind the wheel - same goes for the cell phone companies. You see where I'm going here.

Please don't take this as me being against those on and off the rez affected by alcohol and it's negative effects. I just think they are going about this the wrong way.

I know the horrible and impoverished conditions that exist on Pine Ridge and other reservations, and I know that when people have nothing to do and the quality of life is poor that some will turn to alcohol especially if that is what they witnessed growing up; you know bad examples set by the adults. They may not know ay better.

I like to go back to the gun scenario because it comes up often. There have been cases where a store will sell hundreds of hand guns to a handful of people, this is called a straw purchase. In some cases when one of those guns has been found to be used in the commission of a crime the family of the victim will band with a few other victims and file a class action suit against the manufacturer. They always loose their case BUT through the case they find out that a store and or distributors were knowingly selling bulk quantities to people they know are reselling them to be used in a crime. The store gets sued and people go to jail.

Again I think the stores and their supplies are at fault and should be sued for it not the manufacturers. At some point people will need to assume some sort of responsibility for their actions. If we excuse everyone for their alcoholism and blame it on someone else then we might as well excuse inner city gangsters from their crimes and blame it on everyone who won't hire them or the government for not investing into their communities - we don't!

I just read an article on why the Sioux haven't accepted the trust fund from the government. One point made was that even though 1.3 billion is a lot of money it's only going to last a few weeks and they will be back in the same place, if not worse, than before. The article was posted on a thread on this site, in fact its on the New Threads box to the right, for now.

I'm all for helping people out because I realize there are situations where people just can't help themselves, but a law suit isn't going to solve the issue because at the end of the day the stores in White Clay or other nearby towns will still be there and the distributors will still receive large quantities and deliver them to the stores.
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:26 AM   #34
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It's too simple because only the end user is doing anything wrong.

Let me re-state: alcohol is legal, taxed, requires age consent, carries a medical warning, is regulated for purity/quality, and is disposed of by merchandisers when out of date.

In sum, it's as heavily controlled as any food commodity allowed on the reservation, perhaps MORE so as milk doesn't require you to be 21.

That Natives buy it and bootleg (while getting drunk) is nobody's fault but their own.
But the question that will in all likelihood be asked in court is.. is it actually legal in this instance? You'd be surprised what digging around in the legal archives will produce.

If the intent of the original laws tribal, state and federal) was to prevent the use and sales of alcohol on the rez then the sale of beer to the several stores near the reserve may be found to be exploiting a loophole in geographical area. Just because they can, doesn't mean they should to the extent they have been selling their product to the stores in Whiteclay.

If the tribe can get the judge to see that nexus and see the effects and causation of such an action... they may very well get their day in court.

Most large manufacturers tend to take on protected territories for the distribution and sales of their products while other manufacturers adopt a "flood the market" approach to the sales and distribution... booze and beer companies tend to take the latter approach and while it's not illegal, it can cause excessive alcohol problems in small communities. Even if this case persuades the court to call for a limitation on the amount of beer supplied to the stores I would say that was a successful outcome.

Up here, we have a First Nation in BC, the Osoyoos, that owns and manages its own vineyards and produces it's own wine. Now to some that seems a very dangerous way for the FN to produce self reliance and jobs but to the Osoyoos, it was just what the FN needed.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:09 PM   #35
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Even if this case persuades the court to call for a limitation on the amount of beer supplied to the stores I would say that was a successful outcome.
Yes.

Because gas stations will be able to gouge on petroleum prices for folks making the long drive to where beer is available. Further, insurance companies and attorneys will make a lot more funds on driving-related incidents while malt liquor will spike to $15 a six-pack once Nyquil is gone from the shelves.

Am I consciously being an a-s-s? "No." I see your point.

But it won't change anything.

The only way to do that is with the end consumer.
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:59 PM   #36
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I agree with @yaahl that it can't be all or nothing. It's up to the individual to say no, or at least express the desire to quit, sometimes not even that because sometimes the family and/or friends have to put them into detox and rehab. A bad alcoholic often can't do it without inpatient. And however more or less you believe someone is responsible for their addiction, they certainly are responsible for maintaining their sobriety once they get sober. And those around the person have to demand it and sometimes that's hard, near impossible due to finances, abuse, fear, whatever.

Companies are responsible for their products and so are providers of services. Also, they are responsible for how they market products, like when they show people sweaty and thirsty and the only thing in the icy cold cooler is beer, and everyone grabs one. After all, that's when the good times start...like the songs say...

I think if alcohol producers and retailers had to pay all the costs associated with addiction, they'd change the way alcohol is marketed and sold, and more research would be done about the problem and possible solutions. Maybe the high rate of alcoholism is related to a medical condition that can be treated to reduce vulnerability. Maybe some research can be done.

Some people are allergic to nuts, now its on every package if it was even touching equipment that process nuts. Why do we have to have that on every package? Can't these nut allergy people be responsible enough to avoid the stuff with nuts themselves? Why do the food manufacturers have to bear additional costs for these irresponsible nut allergy people?

But we know from the drug explosion we've had with all kinds of nasty street drugs that jailing the user and letting the pill mills and illegal labs continue to operate is not at all effective. It only serves the cartel and corrupt officials to just arrest users. Reagan came up with that horribly backwards idea, and he had alzheimers. Everyone knows you got to chop off the head.

Do I want to be able to drink alcohol if I want, sure, but I'm not gonna feel real good about buying from a place like those being sued, or for drinking it if I know that a whole bunch of kids and families are suffering just so I can have it without any inconvenience. And no one likes paying for the alcohol companies to shirk their liability. And if quitting was so easy, everyone'd be doing it.

An alcoholic may drink mouthwash and rubbing alcohol if they can't get want they crave, so there's that aspect too. So cutting off booze isn't enough, you got to get people sober somehow, which is expensive.
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:03 PM   #37
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I agree with @yaahl that it can't be all or nothing. It's up to the individual to say no, or at least express the desire to quit, sometimes not even that because sometimes the family and/or friends have to put them into detox and rehab. A bad alcoholic often can't do it without inpatient. And however more or less you believe someone is responsible for their addiction, they certainly are responsible for maintaining their sobriety once they get sober. And those around the person have to demand it and sometimes that's hard, near impossible due to finances, abuse, fear, whatever.

Companies are responsible for their products and so are providers of services. Also, they are responsible for how they market products, like when they show people sweaty and thirsty and the only thing in the icy cold cooler is beer, and everyone grabs one. After all, that's when the good times start...like the songs say...
Companies are responsible for their products only to the extent that they aren't selling poison or falsely advertising their products or to the wrong audience - think cigarette companies advertising to kids (Joe Camel cartoons).

Quote:
I think if alcohol producers and retailers had to pay all the costs associated with addiction, they'd change the way alcohol is marketed and sold, and more research would be done about the problem and possible solutions. Maybe the high rate of alcoholism is related to a medical condition that can be treated to reduce vulnerability. Maybe some research can be done.


Some people are allergic to nuts, now its on every package if it was even touching equipment that process nuts. Why do we have to have that on every package? Can't these nut allergy people be responsible enough to avoid the stuff with nuts themselves? Why do the food manufacturers have to bear additional costs for these irresponsible nut allergy people?
If they were responsible for the costs associated with addiction then they wouldn't exist anymore, at least not here, and there would be no importation of alcohol from foreign countries. They would be bankrupt.

They do put the surgeon general's warning on their packaging, some even go as fr as putting it on every can even if it's sold as a complete case.

What it boils down to is that the information on addiction and the negative effects are out there and well advertised so I think they have for the most part done their job as required by law. Again people do need to accept some personal responsibility for their actions after all no one is holding a gun to their heads. I guess a frat party is different where they make new inductees chug large quantities till they pass out.

I'm not saying there aren't socioeconomic conditions present that are making the consumption of alcohol a pastime, but what I'm saying is that everyone has an option. I've been in some pretty rough times, no job, income, barely making it at all bt I didn't resort to alcohol and or drugs and they were insanely easy for me to get in the inner city but I said that those temporary fixes are only going to make things worse in the end.

Quote:
But we know from the drug explosion we've had with all kinds of nasty street drugs that jailing the user and letting the pill mills and illegal labs continue to operate is not at all effective. It only serves the cartel and corrupt officials to just arrest users. Reagan came up with that horribly backwards idea, and he had alzheimers. Everyone knows you got to chop off the head.

Do I want to be able to drink alcohol if I want, sure, but I'm not gonna feel real good about buying from a place like those being sued, or for drinking it if I know that a whole bunch of kids and families are suffering just so I can have it without any inconvenience. And no one likes paying for the alcohol companies to shirk their liability. And if quitting was so easy, everyone'd be doing it.

An alcoholic may drink mouthwash and rubbing alcohol if they can't get want they crave, so there's that aspect too. So cutting off booze isn't enough, you got to get people sober somehow, which is expensive.
You've brought up a very important issue in your last paragraph. If you remove something from the market or make it hard to get people will always figure a way around it. Look what happened when they made suedeval (sp? medicine) hard to get by tracking all sales by a driver's license. They did that because meth labs need them to make meth. So what did meth producers do? They came up with an even better process that can make it fast and on the spot in a soda bottle.

The same thing goes with banning guns. If they banned all guns here and removed every last one from the street then people wanting to commit murders will use bats and knives and hammers and poison. Look at the murder and assault with weapon stats in England now that firearms are banned and have been removed and destroyed.

The one point that I would really like to make is that in cases like these the law suits and subsequent laws only punish law abiding citizens who are responsible all because some people can't handle themselves.

As I have said before the stores in White Clay are there for one reason, that is to sell booze to the rez and the 18 or so people who actually live in White Clay. They are responsible and they are constantly breaking the law. The distributors who they buy such a quantity from are responsible because they know where it's all going. The manufacturers are far enough removed that they shouldn't be held responsible. I would like to see them admit that there is a problem with people abusing their product and take steps to prevent it, maybe open a treatment center. The other thing is that the alcoholics need to admit they have a problem and become willing to accept treatment. One of the biggest things that needs to happen is there needs to be an economic boom there to create jobs and and raise the standard of living, which will drop the rate of alcoholism by a lot.
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:24 PM   #38
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Sorry TB, but in an action you have to name all the defendants. So yup, the manufacturers are going to be named as well as the stores, states and anyone else with a nexus to the action.

These types of suits often end up with counterclaims amongst the defendants against each other...

One strategy to defeat a claim is to show there is no nexus between the defendant and the cause of action, hence the include everyone so that it reduces wiggle room for defendants to blame a non-litigant.

Once a claim is filed, it's often difficult to amend the statement of claim to include a new defendant.
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:38 AM   #39
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Does anybody here know what Whiteclay, Nebraska looks like?
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Old 02-14-2012, 04:59 AM   #40
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