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Old 02-14-2012, 05:15 AM   #41
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Does anybody here know what Whiteclay, Nebraska looks like?
.
.

HEY, DO WE GET A DISCOUNT @ JOE'S PLACE?
.

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Old 02-14-2012, 08:16 AM   #42
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I'm Jim. Joe's 'Dad'. That no my place!

I rephrase my question, your honor. "Does anybody here know what Whiteclay, Nebraska looks like...personally?"
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:11 AM   #43
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No, I don't! Wondering why no one else has responded?
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:06 PM   #44
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I've never been to Whiteclay and don't even want to.

It's featured in several videos going around, and it looks like just a wide spot in the road, but with several liquor dealers...and drunks laying around on the streets like I've seen in Gallup, Anchorage, Seattle, Albuquerque, Billings, Rapid City, and even our little local burg of Riverton....but they all have population in the thousands, and WhiteClay has TEN???!!??

Our 'other town' used to have a liquor store/pawn shop just outside the city limits. Anyone could hock anything for liquor, and there used to be drunks laying around outside there, or out back in and around a shack. Legal? I guess, but now that's its been closed down, that problem has subsided. Moved somewhere else? Maybe...but I know there are people that are not drinking RIGHT NOW because that easy liquor is not available.
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:24 PM   #45
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I've never been to Whiteclay and don't even want to.

It's featured in several videos going around, and it looks like just a wide spot in the road, but with several liquor dealers...and drunks laying around on the streets like I've seen in Gallup, Anchorage, Seattle, Albuquerque, Billings, Rapid City, and even our little local burg of Riverton....but they all have population in the thousands, and WhiteClay hassles TEN???!!??

Our 'other town' used to have a liquor store/pawn shop just outside the city limits. Anyone could hock anything for liquor, and there used to be drunks laying around outside there, or out back in and around a shack. Legal? I guess, but now that's its been closed down, that problem has subsided. Moved somewhere else? Maybe...but I know there are people that are not drinking RIGHT NOW because that easy liquor is not available.
And how was it gone about to get it closed down?

Do tell. Ayeeee!
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:35 PM   #46
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I've been through the wide spot in the road.

In hindsight, I guess I should have stopped for a Pabst...
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:25 PM   #47
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And how was it gone about to get it closed down?

Do tell. Ayeeee!
The owner passed away, everything was sold, even the building.
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:32 PM   #48
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Sorry TB, but in an action you have to name all the defendants. So yup, the manufacturers are going to be named as well as the stores, states and anyone else with a nexus to the action.

These types of suits often end up with counterclaims amongst the defendants against each other...

One strategy to defeat a claim is to show there is no nexus between the defendant and the cause of action, hence the include everyone so that it reduces wiggle room for defendants to blame a non-litigant.

Once a claim is filed, it's often difficult to amend the statement of claim to include a new defendant.
Even with that in mind, and it makes perfect sense in the way you put it, I still believe that the manufacturers shouldn't be held liable.

Given your legal knowledge, @yaahl do you believe that this case is going to end up like so many other similar cases - that the jury or judge finds the defendants to be not liable? Such as those that I pointed to above the cases involving suits against gun companies?
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:01 PM   #49
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I'd have to read the statement of claim to see what the cause of action the PR folks are going after to really say whether this has the teeth of a good claim.

However, there has been a number of sholarship in the area of product liability following the successful litigation with tobacco compnies that many in the legal field see alchol manufacturers being next. In the Pepperdine Law Review: BEYOND TOBACCO SYMPOSIUM: TORT ISSUES IN LIGHT OF THE CIGARETTE LITIGATION: From Cigarettes to Alcohol: The Next Step in Hedonic Product Liability? 2000 27 Pepp. L. Rev. 701 by Robert F. Cochran, Jr., he sets out that it's not that far fetched to find the expanded product liability moving to alcohol.

In Australia, Canada and the UK, there have also been litigation moving in that direction. Australian Geoff Munro, of the Australian Drug Foundation, has noted (Sunday Age, 15 April 2007) that alcohol is likely to be the next frontier in terms of public health litigation:

"There is growing interest in the prospects for litigation against the manufacturers and promoters of alcohol, given the success of the legal cases against tobacco manufacturers in recent years. We only need one successful case to set a precedent which will have widespread application."


Now here's the insider info on litigation. Most of the litigation never reaches court or trial because to do so would set a precedent. Almost 90% of litigation is settled out of court at settlement conferences and will likely include a gag order on the settlement. Do I think this will ever get to trial? Nope... the Beer companies will make an offer to settle out of court and include a gag order... the case will fade away into obscurity. Higher courts will never be bound by a lower court decision and the lower courts will have nothing by a higher court to bind them. So while it appears that there hasn't been much developing in this area of law, much of it has already been out of court settlements and not public. That's why this appears to be a shot in the dark.

Now liability with respect to booze vendors and bars have expanded to hold the owner of such permises liable for selling booze and allowing a patron to leave while under the influence. Duty of Care liability has expanded to the private party host as well. It's only a matter of time before Whiteclay owner of the booze stores get nailed under that liability.

If the beer companies can take the PR hit, they'll drag it on for years, if they can't, then they'll settle quickly to get it off the docket and out of the media.
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I can see the wheel turning but the Hamster appears to be dead.

Last edited by yaahl; 02-14-2012 at 02:07 PM..
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:07 PM   #50
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Anything to get the ball rolling.
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:35 PM   #51
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If the beer companies can take the PR hit, they'll drag it on for years, if they can't, then they'll settle quickly to get it off the docket and out of the media.

What PR hit?

That a bunch of Natives continue to abuse their product(s)?

From 30,000 feet, that's what this will look like.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:35 PM   #52
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What PR hit?

That a bunch of Natives continue to abuse their product(s)?

From 30,000 feet, that's what this will look like.
1. Litigation is expensive. Shareholders want their profit dividend and end users don't want their cans to increase in price to cover the costs. PR is about the bottom line profit margin.

2. Native people aren't the only ones with alcohol related addictions. Once that chink is pushed open it'll open up the extended liability actions to groups also affected.

3. Now see, I knew there was a reason why you are always so disagreeable, 30,000 feet with no O2 or trimix makes you brain dead.
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I can see the wheel turning but the Hamster appears to be dead.
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:59 PM   #53
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Those are some very valid points, @yaahl

If this suit is successful I'm going to file a suit against Pepsi, Coke, and other soda manufacturers because their products are acidic and are damaging to my teeth... I chose to drink it and the advertisements are in my face. Once I successfully sue them I'll sue the super markets for selling it to me. Then I'll sue DD because I bought coffee the other day and burned the tip of my tongue on the hot coffee that I bought from them. Then while I'm it I might as well sue Monsanto Corp as a preemptive measure against them for a potential future case of cancer from their genetically modified agricultural products.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:00 AM   #54
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Those are some very valid points, @yaahl

If this suit is successful I'm going to file a suit against Pepsi, Coke, and other soda manufacturers because their products are acidic and are damaging to my teeth... I chose to drink it and the advertisements are in my face. Once I successfully sue them I'll sue the super markets for selling it to me. Then I'll sue DD because I bought coffee the other day and burned the tip of my tongue on the hot coffee that I bought from them. Then while I'm it I might as well sue Monsanto Corp as a preemptive measure against them for a potential future case of cancer from their genetically modified agricultural products.
Let's hope you launch the suit in a jurisdiction that allows contingency fees...or you have a bottomless money pit for the disbursements, discoveries and legal fees. lol
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I can see the wheel turning but the Hamster appears to be dead.
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Old 02-15-2012, 07:40 AM   #55
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Those are some very valid points, @yaahl

If this suit is successful I'm going to file a suit against Pepsi, Coke, and other soda manufacturers because their products are acidic and are damaging to my teeth... I chose to drink it and the advertisements are in my face. Once I successfully sue them I'll sue the super markets for selling it to me. Then I'll sue DD because I bought coffee the other day and burned the tip of my tongue on the hot coffee that I bought from them. Then while I'm it I might as well sue Monsanto Corp as a preemptive measure against them for a potential future case of cancer from their genetically modified agricultural products.
That coffee cup was printed "Caution: Contents HOT!"

They need to print "Don't Trust Whitey!" on top of all treaty forms.
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:16 AM   #56
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1. Litigation is expensive. Shareholders want their profit dividend and end users don't want their cans to increase in price to cover the costs. PR is about the bottom line profit margin.
If necessary, they'll just raise prices in certain areas of Nebraska citing some ridiculous reason that prevents appearances of gouging.

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2. Native people aren't the only ones with alcohol related addictions. Once that chink is pushed open it'll open up the extended liability actions to groups also affected.
Like other folks that can be seen as lacking personal accountability? It won't be difficult to paint a picture that abuse is the crux of the issue, starting with Drunken Injuns.

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3. Now see, I knew there was a reason why you are always so disagreeable, 30,000 feet with no O2 or trimix makes you brain dead.
No. It allows viewing of the Big Picture, over time.

In sum, the only way this ever ceases is with the end user.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:04 PM   #57
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...The stores are the ones who sold 5 million cans to the residents of Pine Ridge, the stores knowingly sell the alcohol; many times breaking laws in the process, but they don't care because enforcement is almost nonexistent...
@Toolbox

How are the liquor stores breaking laws?
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Old 02-15-2012, 03:13 PM   #58
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@Toolbox

How are the liquor stores breaking laws?
There was a documentary on White Clay, NB. They showed that the stores were selling alcohol to intoxicated people and they were also allowing them to drink on the premises which is illegal in most place, including Nebraska.
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Old 02-17-2012, 11:49 AM   #59
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I saw this article today. Interesting. Even if the bill passes I'm not sure what good it would do. Based on this article it appears that it would "allow" local authorities to impose restrictions. I don't see local authorities doing any such thing - liquor sales/taxes are very lucrative to gov'ts at all levels.

Neb. bill targeting Whiteclay faces scrutiny
16 February 2012 GRANT SCHULTE, Associated Press

LINCOLN, Neb. (AP) – A proposal to allow for stricter alcohol rules in certain parts of Nebraska would give local governments the tools they need to fight public drunkenness, a state lawmaker said Monday.

But the bill faced skepticism from some state lawmakers and industry leaders, who questioned whether the measure unfairly singled out certain areas. Critics also said they doubted the measure would solve persistent alcohol abuse in problem areas.

Ellsworth Sen. LeRoy Louden told the Legislature's General Affairs Committee he introduced the measure, LB 829, to help local governments fight alcohol abuse in Whiteclay, a town blamed for rampant alcohol abuse and bootlegging on South Dakota's Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, and specific neighborhoods in Omaha.

Louden said the bill allows local governments to control alcohol problems without imposing blanket restrictions.

“This type of business has to be scrutinized much more than the sale of beer and alcohol at a local grocery store frequented by the general public,” Louden said. The bill's intention “is not to create a lot of impact zones throughout the state. It is a tool for counties to have but in reality will probably not be used all that often.”

Whiteclay is often blamed for widespread alcoholism and bootlegging on South Dakota's Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, where alcohol is banned. The town has fewer than two dozen residents – yet its four offsite beer stores sold nearly 5 million cans in 2010, according to the state alcohol commission.

The bill would let local governments seek a state “alcohol impact zone” designation for specific problem neighborhoods. The state liquor commission could then limit the hours the alcohol sellers are open, ban the sale of certain products or restrict single-can sales. The bill would require a public hearing before the commission creates an alcohol impact zone.

Industry advocates said the bill would simply move the alcohol problem to other areas and punishes beer store owners who are running lawful businesses. Those who violate alcohol-sales laws could face license suspensions or revocations, said Kathy Siefkin, executive director of the Nebraska Grocery Industry Association.

“Why should an existing license holder be punished for something when they haven't done anything wrong?” Siefkin said. “They haven't broken the law.”

But activists who have battled alcohol problems in Whiteclay said the industry has failed to stop illegal drinking around the town and smugglers who consume or resell it on the reservation.

Mark Vasina, the president of Nebraskans for Peace, who has produced a documentary about Whiteclay, said tribe members have recounted stories of beer sellers peddling alcohol for sex, pornography and food stamps. He acknowledged that the bill might not solve the alcohol problems but said it would “send a message” that Nebraska lawmakers are clamping down.

The Oglala band of the Lakota nation, known to outsiders as the Sioux, has struggled with alcoholism and poverty for generations. The debate over alcohol sales rose to national prominence in 1999, when two tribal members were murdered near Whiteclay. Their unsolved deaths inspired a yearly march from Pine Ridge to Whiteclay, and activists have occasionally staged blockades to block the flow of alcohol into the reservation.

The Oglala Sioux Tribe filed a $500 million federal lawsuit last week against some of the world's largest beer makers, their distributors, and the four beer stores in Whiteclay.

Several states have joined forces with local governments in recent years to target problem areas, often in downtown urban areas and high-poverty neighborhoods.

In Washington state, the state Liquor Control Board has placed alcohol impact areas in several Seattle neighborhoods. The board restricts the sale of 29 types of beer and wine, with a focus on cheap, high-sugar brands. Local governments target specific neighborhoods and ask the Liquor Control Board to ban certain types of alcohol or limit the hours when customers can buy.

In 2010, the City Council in Memphis, Tenn., established an alcohol impact zone that banned single-beer sales downtown because of alleged ties between sales, aggressive behavior and panhandling.
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@Toolbox

How are the liquor stores breaking laws?
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There was a documentary on White Clay, NB. They showed that the stores were selling alcohol to intoxicated people and they were also allowing them to drink on the premises which is illegal in most place, including Nebraska.
They also trade alcohol for sexual favors, which is also mention in that documentary. The one atrocity of it is that they are selling to the Natives specifically knowing there is NO LEGAL PLACE TO DRINK it.

This is a a problem of no end. As long as there is an Indian to sell to, Whiteclay will remain in business. And that is the biggest atrocity. Create a market, turn your customer into a dependent then bleed em dry, till they die. There's plenty more where that came from. Kind of sounds like a drug dealer huh?
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