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Old 02-21-2012, 04:56 PM   #61
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I'm always wary of entering discussions about NDN issues. But I can't quite keep my mouth shut here. For what they are worth, here're my two cents.

Personal responsibility has to play a role in any solution. It doesn't matter what the addiction is (cigarettes, alcohol, meth, etc.), unless the addict himself desires to quit, no intervention or solution will be successful. That being said, expecting someone already in the full throws of a physical addiction to "just say no" is unrealistic. Withdrawal/drying out from severe alcohol addiction can be as physically traumatic and life-threatening as the addiction itself. Recognizing that it isn't as simple as just telling someone to quit drinking doesn't negate the fact that sobriety comes from the inside out, not from the outside in. You give what help is necessary, but it is the addict's responsibility to become/stay sober.

Philosophically, I don't think the alcohol manufacturers owe anyone anything. I don't think the cigarette manufacturers owed anyone anything either. Getting relief from the alcohol manufacturers will be a decades-long process, just like it has been for tobacco. The most that will come out of it will be a financial settlement - and if the lawsuits aren't expanded to class-action status encompasing the millions of drinkers and alcoholics in the country, that financial settlement will be paltry - and Whiteclay and its liquor stores will still be there.

More immediate results might be expected from the lawsuits against the liquor stores themselves. How deep are the liquor store owners' pockets? How many wrongful death/injury lawsuits can they defend against before it just isn't worth their time and money to continue with the alcohol sales? Even if the individual lawsuits aren't successful, they still take time and money to defend against. "Harrass" them with lawsuits until they're driven out of business.
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Old 02-21-2012, 05:11 PM   #62
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Those are 2 pretty good cents RDNKJ. And yes there HAS to be some personal responsibility. Realistically to expect responsibility from a raging addict is like expecting the tobacco company to pay for your medical bills, even though you were the one who knowingly picked up a cigarette. A product known to cause cancer and other health related issue.

As far as the Tribe is concerned, I think it is the last of grasping at straws. They have tried everything to shut Whiteclay down, and to no avail. So now the most logical thing to do is to go after the manufacturer. Not to say, Anheiser Busch shouldn't feel some ... "personal responsibility" of there own for selling to a place that specifically targets and exploits the alcoholism of a particular demographic, but I fear it will NOT favor the tribe, and quiet truthfully bring even more frivolous lawsuits that will clog the justice system just as the infamous McDonalds coffee lawsuit.

Anyway, thanks for your 2 cents.
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Old 02-22-2012, 03:45 PM   #63
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My mother, who never smoked, got pancreatic cancer from second hand cigarette smoke and it cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and nearly cost her her life. It doesn't say that on the pack. Cigarette smoke is like air pollution, it needs to be regulated and I'm sick of paying the bills for people who have emphysema or lung cancer and no insurance while the tobacco companies make millions, billions even. I used to love the smell of my dad's Marlboros when I was young, back when they advertised them on tv and no one thought they hurt you.

By the same token, alcohol manufacturers should be required to shell out for care for people getting liver transplants due to alcholism, and that happens alot and these people are taking livers away from kids with terminal diseases like cancer or hepatitis or hereditary problems that have a whole life ahead of them or people who never drank, just are ill. Six months of sobriety is all that's required to qualify for a transplant (if you did drugs, you'd be lucky to get one at all) and many start drinking once they are healed. Some people get two and three livers. Over 500,000 bucks per surgery, to put it in. We pay for all that, in one way or another, because these uninsured or underinsured alcoholics, whether in treatment or in the hospital, run up bills the government pays and that takes money away from other things. Health care is one of the government's biggest expenses.

One solution would be to abolish all rehab facilities and deny any health care for anyone who drinks or smokes (or uses drugs) because they are the ones who made that choice and they should be responsible for it and unless they have the money to pay for 100% of their own medical care then forget it. Let them be sick, suffer and die right? Then they would be taking responsibility for themselves and their actions, right?

And we can start denying coverage for pregnancy right? or STDS? Or even the flu?

Unfortunately, that doesn't happen, so somebody has to pay, and they become everyone's responsibility. So we can keep bleeding ourselves dry paying for these people or get the people who profited off their destruction to pay for some of it.

I don't have a portion of my family that is not alcoholic and I'm as sick of it as anyone. I have no pity for mean drunks and people who keep blowing it over and over again, for what seems to me to be incredible weakness, selfishness, and cruelty.

I think people should have the right to drink alcohol anywhere they want and to use tobacco in properly ventilated areas responsibly. But I also think there's a point where someone's alcoholism reaches an insanity level and they need to be locked up for a good long time and put on probation so to speak afterwards. And the family and community need to be held accountable for putting the kids in harms way and for allowing a drunk to hide out and return again and again, because they are too afraid/weak to confront them and throw them out.

The real problem is that you can only sober up an alcoholic who wants to be sober and stay sober, and if they don't, then you can only throw them out. So if people let people stay and drink and cause problems, that is a problem with the non-alcoholics. The only humane thing is to treat the alcoholic and the family.

So you can look at the alcohol companies paying for rehab in the same way as paying a deposit on a glass bottle or can, that alcoholics, when they buy alcohol, pay into their own rehab account. Like green stamps. Sounds to me like forcing alcoholics to be responsible.
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Old 02-22-2012, 04:11 PM   #64
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Muskrat_skull, that is why it is called a disease. If you refuse help to even the most brazen alcoholic/addict you raise crime and violence. Burglary, assault, armed robbery, domestic violence, they all go up. Not treating folks for an addiction is not the answer. And I don't care who you are, no one wants to clean up in the middle of an addiction. Again that does not mean that there can not be some personal and co-operative responsibility in these situations, and if someone is getting 5 liver and still drinking, it seems to me that the problem is not the alcoholic, but the system, who would allow someone to continue to go to the head of the line for reckless behavior. As far as the Government paying for healthcare, I'm sorry but that is NOT the case, check your taxes, it is We the People who foot that bill. Government don't just print that money, they have to obtain it through taxes, that would be paychecks, income, property school, sales, tobacco, alcohol, etc, etc, etc. Believe me the list goes on, and on and on.

My Grandmother was a RAGING alcoholic and smoked 5 packs a day for as long as I can remember. I remember vaguely the cigarette commercials, and I remember the commercials after they pulled the cigarette commercials, so I KNOW, my Grandmother knew 35 years ago that those things would kill her, if she didn't put them down, and guess what, she did put em down and it still killed her. But we did not sue Phillip Morris, why? Because my ADULT Grandmother who exercised her inalienable rights to make her own choice to pick up a cigarette and smoke. Even after living on oxygen for some 10 years, countless battles with pneumonia and lung infections that my Grandfather paid for. We still did not sue because Grandmother made the choice to smoke. Personal responsibility.

Now in the case of Whiteclay, I do believe that this is an ethics issue, and do agree with the alcohol companies getting bit here, not because the poor NDN's are trapped in alcoholism, but ethically, I could never continue to sell to a supplier or individual store if I knew that they were exploiting a certain demographic. That would be like moving to Russia and opening a liquor store with the sole purpose of selling Vodka, cause you know those Russians love their Vodka and I could get rich. Of wine in Italy. Still not saying that I TOTALLY agree with it because I am sure it will have some serious ramifications, BUT, as far as the tribe is concerned, and I AM NOT SPEAKING FOR THE TRIBE! MERELY WHAT I PERCEIVE THE TRIBE IS DOING, I think it is the last option. As far as the city, county, state and federal officials have demonstrated again and again. Nothing in Whiteclay is going to change.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:55 PM   #65
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I agree with most of what you say, @rezrazed, the only part I would like to see is that every time your grandma bought a pack of cigs, she would have to pay extra money into a fund (call it a tax, or higher price for cigs, or whatever you like) to cover her medical expenses as a result of exercising her freedom to smoke or her addiction, however you want to view it.

A portion of the money you pay for cigarettes and alcohol, I'd say at least 50% should go toward tobacco and alcohol abuse rather than taking money from healthcare for other people, like children born with disabilities or people with cancer. Its a messed up world when a person with treatable cancer can't get care and dies because the govt can't afford to cover all the expense, but the govt will pay for most if not all of the cost of care for someone with emphysema from smoking recklessly even lung transplants.

Having the alcohol and tobacco companies pay for care--a cost they will pass down to customers--forces alcoholics and smokers to pay for their own care--be responsible. Like you say, expecting other people through indigent care, medicare or medicaid, or other health services to foot the bill for ailing health and mental problems due to a selfish addiction or their right to smoke and drink, however you see it, is not making the smoker or drinker responsible in any way.

These companies rake it in, they can afford it, I know, I used to work for large companies. They waste more in one hour than you would ever spend in your lifetime. I don't know why the American people are defending the large companies that exploit them and are ruining our world. They would replace every human with a robot if they could, and spit in your face while doing it, while polluting the world to the point its uninhabitable.

Who should bear the burden of collecting these funds and paying for the smoking or drinking related health care? If you give it to the government in the form of an extra sales tax, it will be spent on war or other things and there will be no oversight. If the alcohol and tobacco companies are forced to "donate" or contribute a portion of their profits to services for tobacco and alcohol related medical care, then at least the government can oversee that and enforce it. The alcohol and tobacco companies also might clean up their acts. Heck, companies give portions of their proceeds to charities all the time and I don't see anyone worrying that Dannon yogurt will go bankrupt because they donate to Susan G. Koman fund. Thinking of it, I kinda like the idea of alcohol and tobacco companies being forced to donate a percentage of their income to medicare, medicaid, and other govt sponsored health services, since these programs will become solvent in no time!

I dislike ethnic stereotypes. While Native Americans and other people may have genetic physiological differences that affect how carbohydrates are metabolized, and this may make some people prone to alcoholism and could make it harder to quit, at least some of the stereotype of the "alcoholic Indian" comes from the days when alcohol first was introduced and people didn't know what it was or what it would do long term or in excess, and were deceived by invading whites, who loved to write about anything "sinful" an Indian did. This is no longer the case (I mean the not knowing about the dangers of alcohol, the rest is still true). Living through communism in the USSR, we might drink too, regardless of our ethnic origin, having everything taken from you, starving, standing in line for a piece of rotten bread or an old potato, living multiple families in one room, and no religion and no apparent hope of things getting better. All Russians are not alcoholics, nor are all American Indian people, nor Irish or Germans or any other group it gets pinned on. A lawsuit that is based on this supposition supports and perpetuates ethnic stereotypes, and that's a really bad thing.
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:53 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
I agree with most of what you say, @rezrazed, the only part I would like to see is that every time your grandma bought a pack of cigs, she would have to pay extra money into a fund (call it a tax, or higher price for cigs, or whatever you like) to cover her medical expenses as a result of exercising her freedom to smoke or her addiction, however you want to view it.
They do, it's called local, state, federal and sale tax, which goes to pay off budgets that elected officials can't seem to control, welfare, foodstamps, and Government healthcare. And where does it make sense to penalize a person because they are a smoker to pay an additional tax. Besides Grandfathers insurance paid for all of that, the insurance he worked hard for, and came out of his paycheck, in taxes, to the federal government.

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A portion of the money you pay for cigarettes and alcohol, I'd say at least 50% should go toward tobacco and alcohol abuse rather than taking money from healthcare for other people, like children born with disabilities or people with cancer. Its a messed up world when a person with treatable cancer can't get care and dies because the govt can't afford to cover all the expense, but the govt will pay for most if not all of the cost of care for someone with emphysema from smoking recklessly even lung transplants.
Agreed on your line of thinking, but again the GOVERNMENT DOES NOT FOOT THE BILL, You and I do. If you have a job, buy anything at the store, own a house, you are paying for that, NOT the Government.

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Having the alcohol and tobacco companies pay for care--a cost they will pass down to customers--forces alcoholics and smokers to pay for their own care--be responsible. Like you say, expecting other people through indigent care, medicare or medicaid, or other health services to foot the bill for ailing health and mental problems due to a selfish addiction or their right to smoke and drink, however you see it, is not making the smoker or drinker responsible in any way.
There is no such thing as responsibility in an addiction be it alcohol, drugs, or tobacco. And does it make any more sense to pass down the cost of frivolous lawsuits to their customers? NO.

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These companies rake it in, they can afford it, I know, I used to work for large companies. They waste more in one hour than you would ever spend in your lifetime. I don't know why the American people are defending the large companies that exploit them and are ruining our world. They would replace every human with a robot if they could, and spit in your face while doing it, while polluting the world to the point its uninhabitable.
Because this is America and not Communistic Russia, where you do not have a right to speak your mind. Would it be fair for you to have to pay for my groceries every week, because you make more money than I do?

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Who should bear the burden of collecting these funds and paying for the smoking or drinking related health care?
You insurance, if you can get the politicians hands out of the pot, you might see private insurance work for it's consumer again.

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If you give it to the government in the form of an extra sales tax, it will be spent on war or other things and there will be no oversight. If the alcohol and tobacco companies are forced to "donate" or contribute a portion of their profits to services for tobacco and alcohol related medical care, then at least the government can oversee that and enforce it. The alcohol and tobacco companies also might clean up their acts. Heck, companies give portions of their proceeds to charities all the time and I don't see anyone worrying that Dannon yogurt will go bankrupt because they donate to Susan G. Koman fund. Thinking of it, I kinda like the idea of alcohol and tobacco companies being forced to donate a percentage of their income to medicare, medicaid, and other govt sponsored health services, since these programs will become solvent in no time!
Again this is AMERICA NOT Communist Russia, you can not FORCE anyone to do anything, and Phillip Morris and RJ Reynolds Co, already do this, and have been for many years.

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I dislike ethnic stereotypes. While Native Americans and other people may have genetic physiological differences that affect how carbohydrates are metabolized, and this may make some people prone to alcoholism and could make it harder to quit, at least some of the stereotype of the "alcoholic Indian" comes from the days when alcohol first was introduced and people didn't know what it was or what it would do long term or in excess, and were deceived by invading whites, who loved to write about anything "sinful" an Indian did. This is no longer the case (I mean the not knowing about the dangers of alcohol, the rest is still true).
And sometimes it's just a fact, I mean when 5 million can of beer are sold a year in Whiteclay, Ne. (population, what 13?)I think it's more than a stereotype. Unfortunately it's a tragic reality.

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Living through communism in the USSR, we might drink too, regardless of our ethnic origin, having everything taken from you, starving, standing in line for a piece of rotten bread or an old potato, living multiple families in one room, and no religion and no apparent hope of things getting better. All Russians are not alcoholics, nor are all American Indian people, nor Irish or Germans or any other group it gets pinned on. A lawsuit that is based on this supposition supports and perpetuates ethnic stereotypes, and that's a really bad thing.
So you would know the ease and rationale to drown ones sorrows in just a beer or two, now add a rate of suicide 3X's higher than the national average, food provided to you that you know is gonna kill ya, need I really go on?

As I said before, I am not totally against this lawsuit, for no other reason than this. ETHICALLY, I believe that the alcohol industry knows who their consumers are, SO, KNOWING the situation in Whiteclay and the intentional targeting of the reservation in Pine Ridge, I believe that the alcohol industries NEED to have their ARSES bit on this one. Ethically and Morally it is WRONG. The same needs to happen to each individual store, owner, town liquor license regulator, State and federal, but we all know that just isn't going to happen. So once again, someone else pays for the lack of ethics that the government has, this time it's the alcohol industry.
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:10 PM   #67
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If I abuse alcohol, I -- not anyone else -- am responsible for it.

I shouldn't be able to blame alcohol, or its manufacturers, for my use of their product in a manner known to me to be irresponsible.
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:18 PM   #68
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Sum?

If I abuse alcohol, I -- not anyone else -- am responsible for it.

I shouldn't be able to blame alcohol, or its manufacturers, for my use of their product in a manner known to me to be irresponsible.
To you, your neighbor and your first grade teachers best friends sisters cousin.
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:42 PM   #69
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I don't think it's fair to use the tobacco companies in comparison because 2nd hand smoke is a killer and directly affects people who may not be smokers themselves. The tobacco companies tried to hide this. The price of cigarettes and other tobacco products have risen a lot by bother taxes and by the companies themselves. The price increase partially reflects the fact that the companies are paying out lots of money from massive law suites made by 2nd hand smoke victims. I agree that the tobacco companies can be held responsible for that. Part of me wants to say that they really can't be held responsible because the smokers are the ones lighting the cigarettes and poisoning the others around them but again they are paying the cost of the suites by paying higher prices.

An argument can be made that alcohol's 2nd hand effects are death to others from drunk drivers, spousal and child abuse and other reckless stupid acts. BUT in cases where alcohol lead to someone doing something illegal or dangerous the USER is held responsible, goes to jail and pays fines and restitution.
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Old 02-25-2012, 03:02 PM   #70
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Agreed on your line of thinking, but again the GOVERNMENT DOES NOT FOOT THE BILL, You and I do. If you have a job, buy anything at the store, own a house, you are paying for that, NOT the Government.
I'm quite well aware of that, as my argument shows, you don't get that I get it. The problem is that taxs are mandated to go to particular areas, which is why they have a budget. If our current health care system cannot afford to pay for cancer care or other illnesses and medications for people who aren't trying to kill themselves and deliberately being self-destructive, then the tax needs to be raised and allocated properly, or the alcohol manufacturers need to be forced legally to cover the costs.

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They do, it's called local, state, federal and sale tax, which goes to pay off budgets that elected officials can't seem to control, welfare, foodstamps, and Government healthcare. And where does it make sense to penalize a person because they are a smoker to pay an additional tax. Besides Grandfathers insurance paid for all of that, the insurance he worked hard for, and came out of his paycheck, in taxes, to the federal government.
Budgets are runaway because of runaway health costs. Health is 51% of the gross domestic product. And last I checked, my non-smoker mother's pancreatectomy wasn't covered by any smoker's health insurance. And in many cases, especially these days, the tax we pay and insurance premiums, don't cover the actual cost of care. Hospitals and doctors are subsidized by the government. Its time industries that cause the problem shoulder some of the cost.

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Because this is America and not Communistic Russia, where you do not have a right to speak your mind. Would it be fair for you to have to pay for my groceries every week, because you make more money than I do?
I would by your groceries if you were poor and I ate all your groceries, or even if you had money because that's the kind of person I am. by the same token, if a product diminishes my health significantly and I am powerless to quit due to its intoxicating effects, I would expect the product manufacturer to accept its liability.

The Capitalistic Representative Democracy we call the American government forces people to do things all the time, that is the role of any type of government, to legislate, regulate and incarcerate if need be, because some people and corporations cannot be trusted to behave on their own. You stop at red lights don't you? If you get drafted, you go to war. If a product is dangerous, it is banned. And if you are a woman with polycystic ovary disease in Virginia, you can just suffer--thanks to Fascist Communist Dictatorship otherwise known as the Republican party's sick gender discrimination. But we still cover smoking and alcohol related illness thank you. Talk about hypocrisy.

Companies are required by law in many cases to have liability insurance to cover costs should their products cause damage. I suppose you think it was right for American people to pay to clean up the BP oil spill? Exxon's mess?

The fact is, everyone wants the world to be the way they personally want it, no one looks out for everyone and takes into consideration everyone involved. We used to think that way, but since the 80s and Reagan, everyone is power trippin' and think its cool to be that way. Cool to be racist, cool to flaunt weapons, cool to threaten to get what you want instead of simply expressing your needs, cool to use their political office to profit personally--either financially or by simply oppressing people and flaunting your power, that's not American, that's disgusting, corrupt, weak and dishonorable. There is no honor in any of it. There is no honor in a lack of compassion, tolerance, and understanding. Its just nasty fascist thinking, the true essence of Russian Communism and Nazi fascism, corruption and oppression--overpowering people illegally.

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And sometimes it's just a fact, I mean when 5 million can of beer are sold a year in Whiteclay, Ne. (population, what 13?)I think it's more than a stereotype. Unfortunately it's a tragic reality.
Stereotypes are a horrible thing, and if you stereotype one group of people, you must do the same to many. Just because you are a member of that group doesn't make it acceptable at all, it makes it perhaps worse. To paint a group of people, simply by virtue of their ethnic origin as being hopeless alcoholic children is horrible. I feel for the children who have to grow up with this shadow over their heads. Why bother to do anything? And in fact, its not true.

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There is no such thing as responsibility in an addiction be it alcohol, drugs, or tobacco. And does it make any more sense to pass down the cost of frivolous lawsuits to their customers? NO.
I don't consider someone needing a new liver--hospitalized for months--trying to murder their own family--destroying family property and drinking up their entire paycheck so there is no food in the house--so drunk and passed out that a neighbor can molest the kids or the kids play out in the street and get hurt--or in the case of smoking sucking down $3000 bucks worth of oxygen a month--hospitalized for months--needing new lungs--LET ALONE THE HORRIBLE EXAMPLE THE SMOKER AND ALCOHOLIC SET FOR KIDS.
As for no responsibility? Tell that to the judge when you run over someone when you are driving drunk. Also, there is responsibility when a drinker must contribute to provide financially for his alcoholism-related health care every time he drinks.

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Again this is AMERICA NOT Communist Russia, you can not FORCE anyone to do anything, and Phillip Morris and RJ Reynolds Co, already do this, and have been for many years.
Contact RJ Reynolds and Phillip Morris to pay for your nicotine patches or smoking cessation treatment. They won't, but they should. They instead donate to organizations that hand out flyers, they don't want you to quit and this should be proof to you not only of their own admitted feeling of responsibility, but also of the lengths they will go to shirk it. and they get a tax write off for doing so, which they should not get in their case. I think someone should make a case for tax evasion, they generate a problem, donate to a charity to solve it so they create their own write off.

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If I abuse alcohol, I -- not anyone else -- am responsible for it.

I shouldn't be able to blame alcohol, or its manufacturers, for my use of their product in a manner known to me to be irresponsible.
That would be fine if you never got health care for the problem even if you are dying, or if you pay for 100 percent of your care and if you never hurt your kids or anyone around you or imposed on society in any way by being drunk. No one plans on being an alcoholic, getting old and sick, it just happens and they are in an ambulance or a police car. Once an alcoholic starts drinking, they don't know what is up, and since they never usually get sober enough to really see how bad they've made things, the keep on going, like a rat on a wheel. They aren't capable of seeing if they are being irresponsible when they are drunk. When people take their first drink, they know there is a risk of becoming an alcoholic--or of hurting yourself or someone else if you are drunk. But you feel you are in control. Drunks always feel they are still in control, which is why many try to drive. Maybe you and I will be fine drinking socially or whatever, many people are which is why it should not be outlawed. But there will always be people who have problems with it, and apparently quite a lot do. Its not about blame, its about the cost of care because right now, in the case of many many poor or underinsured people, we all are paying while the companies who created a dangerous product and their liability carriers are getting off scot free. I think if something isn't done to curb health care costs associated with alcoholism, then it will eventually be outlawed again, which is lousy for the rest of us. So I'd rather simply pay a little more, have the government mandate the alcohol and tobacco companies pay for cost of addiction treatment and addiction related expenses, and solve the problem. I'm asking the government force these companies to not only provide a path for addiction but also for treatment.
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Old 02-27-2012, 10:10 AM   #71
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First let my say, that I'm sorry to hear about your mother and hope she's doing well. Sincerely

Next let me say that there are 10 factors to consider with pancreatic cancer, though second hand smoke is NOT listed in them, I think it's common sense enough to put it in the category of smoking. They are:
1. Cigarette smoking: Smoking doubles the risk of pancreatic cancer. Smoking is also associated with early age at diagnosis, and, very importantly, the risk of pancreatic cancer drops close to normal in people who quit smoking. Simply put, cigarette smoking is the leading preventable cause of pancreatic cancer. In fact, some scientists have estimated that one in four, or one in five cases of pancreatic cancer are caused by smoking cigarettes.
2. Age: The risk of developing pancreatic cancer increases with age. Over 80% of the cases develop between the ages of 60 and 80.
3. Race: Studies in the United States have shown that pancreatic cancer is more common in the African American population than it is in the white population. Some of this increased risk may be due to socioeconomic factors and to cigarette smoking.
4. Gender: Cancer of the pancreas is more common in men than in women. Men are more likely to smoke than women.
5. Religious background: Pancreatic cancer is proportionally more common in Ashkenazi Jews than the rest of the population. This may be because of a particular inherited mutation in the breast cancer gene (BRCA2) which runs in some Ashkenazi Jewish families.
6. Chronic pancreatitis: Long-term inflammation of the pancreas (pancreatitis) has been linked to cancer of the pancreas.
7. Diabetes: Diabetes is both a symptom of pancreatic cancer, and long-standing adult-onset diabetes also increases the risk of pancreatic cancer.
8. Obesity: Obesity significantly increases the risk of pancreatic cancer.
9. Diet: Diets high in meats, cholesterol fried foods and nitrosamines may increase risk, while diets high in fruits and vegetables reduce risk. Folate may be protective.
10. Genetics: As mentioned earlier, a number of inherited cancer syndromes increase the risk of pancreatic cancer. These include inherited mutations in the BRCA2, FAMMM, PalB2 or Peutz-Jeghers genes. To learn more about familial pancreatic cancer visit the web site of the National Familial Pancreas Tumor Registry.

The point is no one knows exactly the how's and why's of cancer and even less on pancreatic cancer.

From there lest move on...

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I'm quite well aware of that, as my argument shows, you don't get that I get it.
Then why on multiple occasions have you stated that it is a cost teh government pays?

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The problem is that taxs are mandated to go to particular areas, which is why they have a budget.
Are you aware that technically, taxes in this country are supposed to be illegal. The Constitution was ratifies to pay for WWII, I'd say that debt was paid for, and then some. From there it just went to even bigger greed.

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If our current health care system cannot afford to pay for cancer care or other illnesses and medications for people who aren't trying to kill themselves and deliberately being self-destructive, then the tax needs to be raised and allocated properly, or the alcohol manufacturers need to be forced legally to cover the costs.
Again, this is America, the healthcare system does NOT pay for anything, you do. You either have insurance or you dont. Sucks, but true. This is not a socialistic or communistic regime, it's America, home of the free, a place where if I refuse the privilege to have insurance, I CAN. Which also mean, if I need medical attention, I pay cash, and don't expect someone else to pick up the tab for me.

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Budgets are runaway because of runaway health costs. Health is 51% of the gross domestic product. And last I checked, my non-smoker mother's pancreatectomy wasn't covered by any smoker's health insurance. And in many cases, especially these days, the tax we pay and insurance premiums, don't cover the actual cost of care. Hospitals and doctors are subsidized by the government. Its time industries that cause the problem shoulder some of the cost.
NO That is a far too often quoted pile of dung that whining liberal tree huggers spout off come every 4 years. Budgets are runaway because fiscal irresponsibility, on both sides of the political isle due to a lack of governing the government. In other words it's the fault of the American people for not keeping their so called Representative(s) in check. Healthcare costs are runaway because of people who can not afford healthcare so instead of seeing a doctor they go to the ER, and of course can not afford to pay the bill as well as in certain areas of the country illegal immigrants who do the same, only many of them just don't pay the bill because, they are illegal and are not staying for long anyway.

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I would by your groceries if you were poor and I ate all your groceries, or even if you had money because that's the kind of person I am. by the same token, if a product diminishes my health significantly and I am powerless to quit due to its intoxicating effects, I would expect the product manufacturer to accept its liability.
I don't doubt that you wouldn't MS, but please don't confuse the question, I didn't ask if it was the right thing to do, and remember we are talking about a subject that is decided outside the reservations, so native thought belief and value, is not a factor in this to those who make the decisions, so, the question is "would it be right for me to expect you to pay for my groceries, just because you make more than I do?" another question might be. "Should black folks have to buy there own groceries because they were once former slaves in this country?"

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The Capitalistic Representative Democracy we call the American government forces people to do things all the time, that is the role of any type of government, to legislate, regulate and incarcerate if need be, because some people and corporations cannot be trusted to behave on their own. You stop at red lights don't you? If you get drafted, you go to war. If a product is dangerous, it is banned. And if you are a woman with polycystic ovary disease in Virginia, you can just suffer--thanks to Fascist Communist Dictatorship otherwise known as the Republican party's sick gender discrimination. But we still cover smoking and alcohol related illness thank you. Talk about hypocrisy.
1. Law or not, if I chose to run a red light, chances are 9 out of 10 times, I'm only going to get a picture taken of me. One I technically don't have to pay if it comes in the mail. So do people not run red lights where you are, cause it happens here all the time and they are still driving, maybe 2% might actually get busted by a actual cop or go to jail because they hit some one.
2.There is no draft here hasn't been in over 40 years, so this question needn't be asked.
3. For the most part yes, but for many other no.
4. Again sounds like the lack of regulation of ones elected officials

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Companies are required by law in many cases to have liability insurance to cover costs should their products cause damage. I suppose you think it was right for American people to pay to clean up the BP oil spill? Exxon's mess?
You would suppose wrong, what I expected is that Obama would have allowed BP to clean up the spill, NOT threaten them, then make it impossible for them to do that, causing the spill to become greater than it needed to be. But here you are just comparing apples to oranges, Cause not one sold a tanker of oil to a consenting adult to chose whether or not to spill it.

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The fact is, everyone wants the world to be the way they personally want it, no one looks out for everyone and takes into consideration everyone involved. We used to think that way, but since the 80s and Reagan, everyone is power trippin' and think its cool to be that way. Cool to be racist, cool to flaunt weapons, cool to threaten to get what you want instead of simply expressing your needs, cool to use their political office to profit personally--either financially or by simply oppressing people and flaunting your power, that's not American, that's disgusting, corrupt, weak and dishonorable. There is no honor in any of it. There is no honor in a lack of compassion, tolerance, and understanding. Its just nasty fascist thinking, the true essence of Russian Communism and Nazi fascism, corruption and oppression--overpowering people illegally.
Actually there has only been one other time that common respect and consideration for our fellow Americans was at it's highest since Reagan, and that would have been 9/11. Abortions, what's best for me and not all involved, many times without the fathers knowledge or consent as well as the would be grandparents, really? that's a liberal belief, and what would that be again, oh yeah, what's best for me, cause a child would be an inconvenience to me. How about government run healthcare that everyone is expected to have because this is what I/we want. Are you kidding me, that last time the majority asked what was best for America, was well before Carter, if it weren't then the Steel mills wouldn't have closed down, nor would have thousands of factories during Carters administration, now would it.



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Stereotypes are a horrible thing, and if you stereotype one group of people, you must do the same to many. Just because you are a member of that group doesn't make it acceptable at all, it makes it perhaps worse. To paint a group of people, simply by virtue of their ethnic origin as being hopeless alcoholic children is horrible. I feel for the children who have to grow up with this shadow over their heads. Why bother to do anything? And in fact, its not true.
Again sometimes it's just true. Take it from a former alcoholic and drug addict, the child of 2 former alcoholic, the children of alcoholics, need I say more. It's not a stereotype. I nor did anyone else say, all then dam NDN's are the same, they're all worthless drunks. Find me where I said that please. What was said is that there is a problem on the rez when the rez is 80% or higher affected with alcoholism. That is not a stereotype, that is just a fact.


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I don't consider someone needing a new liver--hospitalized for months--trying to murder their own family--destroying family property and drinking up their entire paycheck so there is no food in the house--so drunk and passed out that a neighbor can molest the kids or the kids play out in the street and get hurt--or in the case of smoking sucking down $3000 bucks worth of oxygen a month--hospitalized for months--needing new lungs--LET ALONE THE HORRIBLE EXAMPLE THE SMOKER AND ALCOHOLIC SET FOR KIDS.
As for no responsibility? Tell that to the judge when you run over someone when you are driving drunk. Also, there is responsibility when a drinker must contribute to provide financially for his alcoholism-related health care every time he drinks.
Are you stereotyping me now? And you just prove my point, it's not a stereotype if it's real. These things really happen on the rez, they also really happen off the rez. A stereo type is a uninformed presumption of what a person thinks about someone or some other group of people. This is real life though.
Another tax, weren't you just complaining about Republicans? Again America remember

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Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
Contact RJ Reynolds and Phillip Morris to pay for your nicotine patches or smoking cessation treatment. They won't, but they should. They instead donate to organizations that hand out flyers, they don't want you to quit and this should be proof to you not only of their own admitted feeling of responsibility, but also of the lengths they will go to shirk it. and they get a tax write off for doing so, which they should not get in their case. I think someone should make a case for tax evasion, they generate a problem, donate to a charity to solve it so they create their own write off.
If it weren't for companies like RJ Reynolds and Philip Morris, the cures that we have found for cancer, would be non existant, companies like these are the majority funders for cancer research so you are biting the very hand that's treating your mother. Maybe you should think about bringing a suit against your dad, after all he's more to blame for exposing your mother to smoke than the tobacco company

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Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
That would be fine if you never got health care for the problem even if you are dying, or if you pay for 100 percent of your care and if you never hurt your kids or anyone around you or imposed on society in any way by being drunk. No one plans on being an alcoholic, getting old and sick, it just happens and they are in an ambulance or a police car. Once an alcoholic starts drinking, they don't know what is up, and since they never usually get sober enough to really see how bad they've made things, the keep on going, like a rat on a wheel. They aren't capable of seeing if they are being irresponsible when they are drunk. When people take their first drink, they know there is a risk of becoming an alcoholic--or of hurting yourself or someone else if you are drunk. But you feel you are in control. Drunks always feel they are still in control, which is why many try to drive. Maybe you and I will be fine drinking socially or whatever, many people are which is why it should not be outlawed. But there will always be people who have problems with it, and apparently quite a lot do. Its not about blame, its about the cost of care because right now, in the case of many many poor or underinsured people, we all are paying while the companies who created a dangerous product and their liability carriers are getting off scot free. I think if something isn't done to curb health care costs associated with alcoholism, then it will eventually be outlawed again, which is lousy for the rest of us. So I'd rather simply pay a little more, have the government mandate the alcohol and tobacco companies pay for cost of addiction treatment and addiction related expenses, and solve the problem. I'm asking the government force these companies to not only provide a path for addiction but also for treatment.
Then you might want to go back to Russia, cause here that aint happening.

Last edited by rezrazed; 02-27-2012 at 09:23 PM.. Reason: Looking over them some of my comments appeared to be on the offensive. Some might still appear so, but not ment to.
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:30 PM   #72
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I'd like people to come to Pine Ridge and see exactly what the REAL issues are before they make ignorant judgements...might be eye opening, but only to those who aren't hiding their head in the sand, spouting ignorance and then calling it "Playing Devil's Advocate"...you never know, you MIGHT discover some truth...
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:08 PM   #73
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I'd like people to come to Pine Ridge and see exactly what the REAL issues are before they make ignorant judgements...might be eye opening, but only to those who aren't hiding their head in the sand, spouting ignorance and then calling it "Playing Devil's Advocate"...you never know, you MIGHT discover some truth...
Perhaps folks who live on Pine Ridge might "discover some truth" by virtue of locating some personal accountability?

No, I am not merely being wise a-s-s reflexive: just like the inner city, the vast majority of reservation issues are now internal -- not external -- and we continue to perpetuate this dogma because, somehow, it has become b-a-s-t-a-r-dized into a form of traditional lifestyle.

PHUK DAT.

Ignorance is believing The Man is still the problem.
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Old 06-05-2012, 05:40 PM   #74
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Latest update on the lawsuit against Whiteclay and Beer Manufactures

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwor...n-front-burner

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http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwor...l-sales-116355
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Old 06-05-2012, 05:43 PM   #75
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My province has thrown their hat in to sue the tobacco companies for putting a burden on the health care because of their addictive products... damages they are seeking are 10 Billion. So strange things are afoot...
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Old 06-06-2012, 09:49 AM   #76
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Absolutely, automobile manufacturers should incur all costs associated with poor driving and...oh...nevermind...

Do you see the problem?

The product(s) are legal, taxed, carry a mandated health warning, require age consent...

Precisely, when IS the end user responsible for their own actions?

enough said......
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:42 AM   #77
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Old 06-06-2012, 12:21 PM   #78
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I don't care what side of the argument you are on, when it becomes entertainment it's time to do something.

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Remember that these liquor dealers are breaking several laws:
selling to intoxicated persons
selling alcohol to be consumed on the premises

The Oglala Sioux's case has been amended to include the charges of creating public nuisances, including supplying bootleggers
http://journalstar.com/news/state-an...c27505e55.html

Bottom line they are profitting off the addictions of alcoholics. Alcoholism has been recognized by the medical community as a DISEASE, not a lifestyle choice. http://www.disabled-world.com/artman...lcoholic.shtml

Another fact: Bills brought forth in Nebraska to create an alcohol impact zone have died thanks to the lobbying and donations by the liquor companies.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/us...lled.html?_r=1
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Old 06-12-2012, 01:49 AM   #80
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...they are profitting off the addictions of...a DISEASE, not a lifestyle choice.
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