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Old 01-14-2013, 10:06 AM   #101
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"Alcohol is merely a stepping stone to far more harmful drugs and far more greater problems like spousal abuse..."

In all the years that I have been 'legally' allowed to consume alcohol it never once lead me or anyone I know to want to do harder drugs. In fact the worse thing I have ever done while intoxicated was ripped the railing out of the wall along my basement steps in the house I rented in college - that was because the landlord mounted it to the lath-work and not the studs.

Alcohol by itself isn't as dangerous as you say it is. In fact a drink here and there is actually good for you and there are many health studies to prove it. Heck my grandmother drinks wine here and there and she is 88 and still has her own house, no need for walkers or a cane, and still is able to drive a car with no problems.

Like I said alcoholism is just a side effect to a bad economy. When people have nothing better to do in impoverished areas they drink and they drink a lot.

Pete, you need to read the post I made above (#94). Banning things doesn't solve the issue because people are going to find a way to get what they want. Look at illegal drugs, they are banned across the country, save for some new pot laws, and people still get a hold of them and still do them. Banning alcohol or heck even banning guns is going to have the same effect. The only difference is like I said alcohol isn't nearly as dangerous as some illegal drugs are.

Also define the typical "Native American".

Don't take this as I am excusing the operations of White Clay as that is clearly set-up to sell as much booze to the residents of Pine Ridge.
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:18 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete walkswithhorse View Post
I suppose one liners are okay for some. Me. I feel the need to explain my thoughts a little more rather then try and sum it all up with cute little quips and simple rhetoric.
Perhaps you should think about the "one liner."
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:45 AM   #103
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Alcohol Statistics

Why Alcohol Statistics are Needed and Important
Regrettably, the full extent of the destructive and pervasive effects of alcohol abuse and alcoholism are not typically comprehended until relevant alcohol statistics and facts and alcoholism statistics are overtly expressed.
As a consequence, the following alcohol statistics and alcoholism statistics and facts, that have been acquired via different research studies and surveys on the Internet, will be outlined below:
  • Employees who were in serious trouble with alcohol showed significant improvement in drinking behavior and job adjustment during the months immediately following an intervention to confront problem drinking that was intruding on their work.
  • A study of fifth and sixth-grade students found that those who demonstrated an awareness of beer ads also held more favorable beliefs about drinking and intended to drink more frequently when they grew up.
  • An estimated 6.6 million children under 18 live in households with at least one alcoholic parent.
  • By the time they are high school seniors, 80% have used alcohol and 62% have been drunk.
  • In the United States, roughly 50,000 cases of alcohol poisoning are reported each year, and approximately once every week, someone dies from this preventable condition.
  • Classical alcoholism takes about 15 years to develop, but it can happen much quicker in adolescents and young adults.
  • Treatment for alcoholism has been shown to reduce criminal activity up to 80% among chronic offenders, has increased their rate of employment, decreases homelessness and reduces all health care costs.
  • In 2002, U.S. alcoholism statistics reported that 2.6 million binge drinkers were between the ages of 12 and 17.
  • In the United States, almost three times as many men (9.8 million) as women (3.9 million) abuse alcohol or are alcohol-dependent.
  • 56% of students in grades 5 through 12 say that alcohol advertising encourages them to drink.
  • Alcoholism and alcohol abuse are the third leading cause of the preventable deaths in the United States.
  • Statistics reveal that for American employers, alcohol abuse accounts for roughly 67% of total number of substance abuse complaints.
  • Children who are drinking alcohol by 7th grade are more likely to report academic problems, substance use, and delinquent behavior in both middle school and high school.
Alcoholism and Alcohol Abuse Statistics. According to U.S. drunk driving statistics and statistics on alcohol abuse, in 2001, more than half a million people were injured in crashes where police reported that alcohol was present. This is an average of one individual injured roughly every two minutes. This must be one of the better referenced alcohol abuse statistics by members of MADD.
  • Approximately 14 million people in the United States are addicted to alcohol or abuse alcohol.
  • Alcoholics spend four times the amount of time in a hospital as non-drinkers, mostly from drinking-related injuries.
  • 65 people each day die on our highways due to alcohol.
  • It is estimated that over 3 million teens between the ages of 14 and 17 in the United States today are alcoholics.
  • Approximately 14 million Americans ó about 7.4 percent of the adult population ó meet the diagnostic criteria for alcohol abuse or alcoholism.
  • Girls are beginning to drink at younger ages. In the 1960s, 7% of 10- to 14-year-old females used alcohol; by the early 1990ís, that figure had risen to 31%.
  • More than seven percent of the population ages 18 years and older -- nearly 13.8 million Americans -- have problems with drinking, including 8.1 million people who suffer from alcoholism.
  • In 1988, 25,000 Americans were killed in auto accidents involving alcohol. More than 500,000 were injured.
  • Studies have shown that the drinking patterns of employed women are different from those of women not employed outside the home, with less abstinence, increased consumption and greater frequency of drinking occasions observed among employed women.
  • Long-term, heavy alcohol use is the leading cause of illness and death from liver disease in the U.S.
According to alcoholism and alcohol abuse statistics, the number of people in the U.S. who have a "drinking problem," meaning that they engage in abusive drinking or are alcohol dependent is clearly off the charts. These statistics on alcohol abuse and alcoholism statistics strongly support the perception that the U.S. is facing an alcohol abuse/alcoholism problem of enormous proportions and that alcoholism and alcohol abuse are incredibly widespread.
  • The cost of untreated drug and alcohol abuse in the U.S. in a year is estimated at $276 Billion in lost productivity, law enforcement costs, health care and welfare programs.
  • Drunk drivers are responsible for 50% of highway fatalities.
  • 95% of alcoholics die from their disease and die approximately 26 years earlier than their normal life expectancy.
  • There are approximately 14 million people in the United States addicted to alcohol and millions more who display symptoms of abuse, including binge drinking.
  • Currently, approximately 14 million Americans, 1 in every 13 adults, abuse alcohol or are alcoholic.
  • There are higher rates of alcoholism in the unemployed, laborers, those of lower socioeconomic status, those that drop out of high school, those who entered college but failed to earn a degree, and those under more stress.
  • More than one-half of American adults have a close family member who has or has had alcoholism.
  • Alcohol is a factor in nearly half of America's murders, suicides and accidental deaths.
  • The highest rates of current and past year heavy alcohol use are reported by workers in the following occupations: construction, food preparation and waiters/waitresses, along with auto mechanics, vehicle repairers, light truck drivers and laborers.
  • Twenty one percent of workers reported being injured or put in danger, having to re-do work or to cover for a co-worker or needing to work harder due to othersí drinking.
  • Up to 40% of industrial fatalities and 47% of injuries in the workplace are linked to alcohol consumption and alcoholism.
  • Non-alcoholic members of alcoholic's families use 10 times as much sick leave as families where alcohol is not a problem. 80% of these family members report their ability to perform work is impaired as a result of living with an alcohol abuser.
  • Absenteeism among alcoholics or problem drinkers is 3.8 to 8.3 times greater than normal.
  • More than three fourths of female victims of nonfatal, domestic violence reported that their assailant had been drinking or using drugs.
  • Underage drinking costs Americans nearly $53 billion annually. If this cost were shared equally by each congressional district, the amount would total more than $120 million per district.
  • Individuals in stable marriages have the lowest incidence of lifetime prevalence of alcoholism ( 8.9%) as opposed to co-habiting adults who have never been married (29.2%).
  • More than one third of pedestrians killed by automobiles were legally drunk.
  • 500,000 Americans who are dependent on alcohol are between the ages of 9 and 12.
  • Low to moderate doses of alcohol can increase the incidence of a variety of aggressive acts, including domestic violence and child abuse.
  • About half of state prison inmates and 40% of federal prisoners incarcerated for committing violent crimes report they were under the influence of alcohol or drugs at the time of their offense.
  • Research indicates that adolescents who abuse alcohol may remember 10% less of what they have learned than those who donít drink.
According to statistics on alcohol abuse and alcoholism statistics and facts, about 43% of U.S. adults, namely, 76 million individuals, have been exposed to alcoholism in the family. That is, these people grew up with or married an alcoholic or a problem drinker or had a blood relative who was an alcoholic or problem drinker.

Alcohol Statistics: Conclusion

Alcohol Abuse Statistics and Alcoholism Statistics. Ironically, in spite of the fact that basic alcohol information such as the negative consequences of abusing alcohol has been known for centuries, alcohol abuse and alcoholism continue to damage and destroy human lives in our "enlightened" and "aware" society.
Indeed, to confirm this contention, one merely has to review some of the shocking alcohol statistics outlined above. In fact, it is alcohol statistics, alcoholism statistics, and statistics on alcohol abuse like those presented above that makes a person wonder how it is possible that alcohol abuse and alcoholism are increasing rather than decreasing worldwide.


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Old 01-15-2013, 04:49 AM   #104
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THE FOLLOWING IS MORE DIRECTLY RELATED TO OUR CULTURE, OUR PEOPLE

horse

Alcohol and Substance Abuse in the Cherokee Nation

The Cherokee people settled in Oklahoma more than 150 years ago after the federal government required them to leave their native home in North Carolina. Currently, more than 65,000 Cherokee people reside in the rural areas and towns in northeastern Oklahoma.
Due to the fact that more than one-third of the population is 17 years old or younger, this group of Cherokee people is considered a young population.
The Cherokee youth, compared with similarly aged white youth, however, are experiencing higher rates of cocaine, marijuana, alcohol, and tobacco abuse.
Moreover, addiction and alcohol abuse statistics for Native American adults have demonstrated that substance abuse is associated with serious physical injury, police calls, and child neglect and abuse.
For example, the Tribal Child Protective Services of the Cherokee Nation recently reported that 39% of their total case load points to substance abuse as a major contributing factor associated with the aforementioned community problems.
According to one study, alcohol use is a factor in 40% to 60% of auto accidents resulting in personal injury or death among American college students.

Data from the National Household Survey on Drug Abuse in 1989 showed that approximately 50% of all American adolescents have used alcohol compared with approximately 80% for American Indian and Alaskan Native youth.
The upshot of this is that early experimentation with alcohol and drugs places Native youth, in particular, at risk for serious health, relationship, and community problems down the road.
Studies have shown that inpatient detoxification programs are more effective and longer lasting than outpatient detox programs. The important issue here, however, is the following: the more severe the alcohol-related withdrawal symptoms, the more likely that inpatient detox programs should be used.

Alcohol Abuse and Native Indians

The following represents some of the key alcohol abuse statistics and facts regarding alcohol abuse by Native Indians.
  • Alcohol and drug abuse are community and family problems among Indians. This abuse harms all tribal members, including the abuser and his/her family, friends, and associates.
  • The negative consequences of alcohol and substance abuse in Indian communities are mental, physical, spiritual, and emotional.
Factors that affect your blood alcohol level include the following: how quickly your body metabolizes alcohol, how quickly you consume the alcoholic drink, how much food is in your stomach at the time you drink, and how strong the alcoholic drink is.
  • In Indian communities, alcoholism is a multi-generational phenomenon. Currently, alcohol dependence is negatively affecting three or four generations and will affect most certainly affect future generations.
  • Alcoholism in Indian communities is the tip of an iceberg. That is, alcohol dependence sits on top of a huge mass of other underlying problems.
  • Alcohol dependency frequently co-exists in Indian communities with other problems such as stress-related acting out, cultural shame, depression, and self-hate.
Factors that affect your blood alcohol level include the following: how quickly your body metabolizes alcohol, how quickly you consume the alcoholic drink, how much food is in your stomach at the time you drink, and how strong the alcoholic drink is.

Alcohol Abuse in Native Communities: Conclusion

According to alcoholism and alcohol abuse statistics, alcohol abuse in native communities is a serious problem. Indeed, numerous Native Hawaiian and Native Americans, including their youth, have an unfortunate history of suffering from alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence.
The destructive and fatal consequences of alcohol addiction and alcohol abuse experienced by native Americans need to be studied and significantly reduced and alternative healthy options and lifestyles need to be developed sooner rather than later if these native communities are to prosper.
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:01 AM   #105
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THIS IS AN OLDER ARTICLE DATING BACK TO 2008, BUT THE FACTS WITHIN THE ARTICLE ARE WORTH LOOKING AT IF YOU ARE TRULY CONCERNED ABOUT OUR PEOPLE AND OUR CULTURE. CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF, ONE MUST HAVE A BASIC UNDERSTANDING OF THE ROOT ISSUES AND CAUSES BEFORE ONE CAN EVOLVE AND MOVE ON. MANY DISMISS THIS STUFF AS " IT DOESN'T AFFECT ME, SO WHY SHOULD I BE CONCERNED" WELL, IF YOU ARE IN HERE AND ARE NA REGARDLESS OF WHAT DEGREE, THEN THIS CONCERNS YOU AND I AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO CALLS THEMSELVES NATIVE AMERICAN..........


horse


updated 8/28/2008 1:44:19 PM ET 2008-08-28T17:44:19

WASHINGTON — Almost 12 percent of the deaths among Native Americans and Alaska Natives are alcohol-related — more than three times the percentage in the general population, a new federal report says.
The report released Thursday by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, found 11.7 percent of deaths among Native Americans and Alaska Natives between 2001 and 2005 were alcohol-related, compared with 3.3 percent for the U.S. as a whole.
Dwayne Jarman, a CDC epidemiologist who works for the Indian Health Service and is one of the study's authors, said it is the first national survey that measures Native American deaths due to alcohol. It should be a "call to action" for federal, state, local and tribal governments, he said.
The researchers obtained their statistics by analyzing death certificates over the four-year period.
The two leading causes of alcohol-related deaths among Indians were traffic accidents and alcoholic liver disease, each of which cause more than a quarter of the 1,514 alcohol-related deaths over the four-year period.
Also listed are homicide (6.6 percent of alcohol-related deaths), suicide (5.2 percent) and injuries in falls (2.2 percent).
There may be many more alcohol-related deaths than the study shows, in part because the CDC analysis did not count deaths related to some diseases for which alcohol is believed to be an important risk factor, such as tuberculosis, pneumonia and colon cancer.

The greatest number of tribal alcohol-related deaths — about a third of the total — occurred in the Northern Plains, where reservations are remote and often destitute, the study said. The lowest number of deaths were in Alaska.



Jarman said the study did not look at why there may be more deaths in the Plains but said it is consistent with previous studies.
"It may be a function of social perceptions of alcohol in that particular region," he said. The report did not break down the numbers by tribe.
66 percent were younger than 50
The study said more than 68 percent of the Indians whose deaths were attributed to alcohol were men, and 66 percent were people younger than 50 years old. Seven percent were less than 20 years old.
The study recommends "culturally appropriate clinical interventions" to reducing excessive drinking and better integration between tribal health care centers and tribal courts, which often deal with alcohol-related crimes.
Donovan Antelope, a spokesman for the Northern Arapaho Tribe, said alcoholism has been a problem for more than a century with many Indian populations.
"It has had a very negative impact on our day-to day life," he said, adding that the tribe has started promoting alcohol-free events.
In general, American Indians suffer much higher death rates of most leading causes than the rest of the country. Besides alcoholism, drug use, diabetes, cardiovascular disease and suicide also are high.
© 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:08 AM   #106
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Here is another article I found that was very interesting. Worth reading. It was dated 2011........



horse


Is Native American alcoholism genetic?

October 9, 2011
By Addiction Blog



We donít know.
Alcoholism is caused by a combination of genetic, cultural, an environmental factors. But how much a factor are our genes? And are Native Americans more at risk than other racial and ethnic groups of becoming alcoholic? We explore here.
HUGE rates of alcoholism

According to estimates from the U.S. Indian Health Service, the alcohol dependency rate is six times greater for Native Americans than for the general population. In fact, rough estimates from missions that help Native American people have found a 60-80% lifetime prevalence rate for the development of alcohol use disorders and alcohol dependence among Native American populations. And although many people will agree that the rates of alcoholism are high, experts still donít really know if American Indians are especially susceptible to alcohol dependence or not.
Genetic theories for alcoholism among Native Americans

The main current theories for alcoholism among American Indians focus on alcohol metabolism to try to explain why alcohol dependence rates are so high among the population. Some researchers have thought that Native Americans are predisposed to alcoholism because of differences in the way they metabolize alcohol. More specifically, researchers think that alcohol metabolism may affect the regulation of alcohol intake, because interference with production or elimination of the alcohol metabolite acetaldehyde has behavioral effects. And while studies of families, twins, and adoptees support a genetic predisposition to alcoholism may confirm this, the exact genetic code has yet to be cracked.
What researchers have found is that alcohol is broken down and eliminated differently in Native Americans than in other populations. So far, studies have found a variant of the ALDH1 enzyme that is encoded by the ALDH1A1*2 allele and a variant of the ADH1B enzyme that is encoded by the ADH1B*3 allele. However, the genes that have been identified in Native Americans are associated with a protective effect and do not explain the high rates of alcoholism in the tribes investigated.
More research is needed

Although ongoing research examines individual and tribal differences in alcohol metabolism among American Indians, the most recent finding suggest that rates of alcoholism and alcohol-related problems are influenced by other environmental and/or genetic factors. Why do Native Americans drink so much?
So while people can be protected against or predisposed to alcoholism by variations in the enzymes that metabolize alcohol (i.e., alcohol dehydrogenase [ADH] and aldehyde dehydrogenase [ALDH]), the presence of these enzymes and alleles is required before scientists can declare that alcoholism is genetic for Native Americans, or not.
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:21 AM   #107
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My friends. I may not be up on my game as far as posting, but I do know how to back up and support my claims. Especially when they concern each and everyone of us. Even non NA. Facts, as they say, do speak for themselves. Unfortunately, NA's are short on education about the dangers of alcohol and long winded with regards to making excuses for drinking this poison. This bad medicine. No one likes to be told what to do. Hell the governments been telling us what to do since it first formed some 238 years ago. However, the problems with alcohol actually predate this with the arrival of the conquistadors. Then the Mexicans. Yes, they all had alcohol and yes they knew exactly how to use it against our various tribes and nations. Of course, it was the White culture which excelled at this. Placing liquor in places readily accessible to the tribes. Then, drunk and absolutely out of their ever loving minds, these tribal leaders signed away millions upon millions of acres of land without so much as a whisper. Oh these were responsible tribal leaders to. Ones that spoke for their people. They were intoxicated before they even arrived at the signing of many of those treaties. Even today, the white man continues to press his poison upon our culture and all we do is say,,,,,,,,

.....its a personal choice......


I hope the tribal leaders sue the hell out of these beer companies. This isn't choice. Its mass murder!.........


horse

PS The first thing people say when confronted with this issue is its not my problem. THAT is the problem right there......
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:30 AM   #108
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Before anyone post a reply to my postings please understand this. I am not trying to impose my will upon any of you. Even though we share a common ground, I would never tell another what to do in here. I hope each of you realizes I am merely trying to inform you. I cannot and will not tell another NA what to do. That is strictly your business. Not here to grandstand or make enemies. In fact, I need friendship very much. I feel like an outcast at times. However, I have a strong tongue and speak the truth when matters of our culture and our people are concerned. If anyone has an issue with me, please tell me what it is. I am easy going and like I said, like to make friends regardless of age, background, tribal affiliations etc. We are all connected on this earth.......

Remember that......its basic to our culture and has been since we crossed the bearing straights thousands of years ago.......


horse offers his peace pipe in the hopes he has NOT offended anyone in here....peace
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:15 AM   #109
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I hope it doesn't go anywhere, on suing the beer companies. Might as well sue Ford Car company cause that leads to drunk driving and while we are at it, lets sue all farmers for growing barley, hops, etc. cause those are ingredients in beer.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. If you know its a "dry" county, or reservation, don't drink there. Go where its legal to drink. Or, go back to the prohibition times and make a speak easy for yourself in you're home.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:41 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Pete walkswithhorse View Post

updated 8/28/2008 1:44:19 PM ET 2008-08-28T17:44:19

WASHINGTON ó Almost 12 percent of the deaths among Native Americans and Alaska Natives are alcohol-related ó more than three times the percentage in the general population, a new federal report says...

...The greatest number of tribal alcohol-related deaths ó about a third of the total ó occurred in the Northern Plains, where reservations are remote and often destitute, the study said.
Do you see the connection?

I could write a whole bunch of stuff but, in the simplest terms, you're rationalizing the symptom and not addressing the problem.

The problem is that you appear to be romanticizing a way of life that is neither traditional or Native and waiting for the Great White Father to legislate protection as if we were social children.

Now, we may be social children -- that's another argument -- but you can't have it both ways. If you support the idea of tribal sovereignty and self-determination then you must hold Natives accountable for addressing social issues and not via lawsuits against the legal manufacture of items we choose to abuse. (That's just ridiculous.)

If you do NOT support any such ideas than what's to argue about? You've already rolled over to a life of commodities, fry bread, tar paper shacks and poor quality American-style lager.

I'm not going to deify Oklahoma, but there is a reason that a 'nine there looks like a Round Dance in a darkened arena and why such things on reservations involve burning 55-gallon trash cans and Mad Dog 20/20 on someone's land.

The answer? "Remote and destitute."

And we romanticize that reservation s-h-i-t.

There's your fundamental problem, not alcohol.
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:38 AM   #111
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[QUOTE=Pete walkswithhorse;1555578

1.Remember that......its basic to our culture and has been since we crossed the bearing straights thousands of years ago.......


2.horse offers his peace pipe in the hopes he has NOT offended anyone in here....peace[/QUOTE]

1. My peoples creation story says we were created right here in our homeland....we did not come here from anywhere else !

2. So , you are a recognized Peace Chief ? Of which Tribe ? What are your credentials? Or are you just spouting more of that stereotypical bulls h i t ? That phrase offends me more than all the rest of your post !
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Old 01-15-2013, 12:42 PM   #112
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Do you see the connection?

I could write a whole bunch of stuff but, in the simplest terms, you're rationalizing the symptom and not addressing the problem.

The problem is that you appear to be romanticizing a way of life that is neither traditional or Native and waiting for the Great White Father to legislate protection as if we were social children.

Now, we may be social children -- that's another argument -- but you can't have it both ways. If you support the idea of tribal sovereignty and self-determination then you must hold Natives accountable for addressing social issues and not via lawsuits against the legal manufacture of items we choose to abuse. (That's just ridiculous.)

If you do NOT support any such ideas than what's to argue about? You've already rolled over to a life of commodities, fry bread, tar paper shacks and poor quality American-style lager.

I'm not going to deify Oklahoma, but there is a reason that a 'nine there looks like a Round Dance in a darkened arena and why such things on reservations involve burning 55-gallon trash cans and Mad Dog 20/20 on someone's land.

The answer? "Remote and destitute."

And we romanticize that reservation s-h-i-t.

There's your fundamental problem, not alcohol.
If you cannot acknowledge the facts I posted that is quite alright. This notion I am "romanticizing" the past is ludicrous. I have no such notions. This idea "we" as in NA's are at fault here because "we" made a bad decision or a bad personal choice is also quite ridiculous. People make bad decisions all the time, but that doesn't excuse away what these beer companies for example are doing. So let me get this straight. Its okay for these companies to sell liquor to these natives right next to a reservation, even though they know by doing so, they are causing more harm to those individuals and all for profit. Listen debate is one thing. Heck even an argument. However, our culture, our people have a far greater problem with alcohol versus any other group or culture. That, my friend, is an incontrovertible fact and one that cannot be ignored. I also disagree with you about the idea "we" romanticize the reservation. Who is "we" . I don't. Many other natives don't. I posted what I thought were good articles and facts which clearly demonstrate that our culture suffers far more deleterious affects from alcohol versus any other group. That MEANS us. You and I. What part of that don't you understand? I have no fundamental problem. Alcohol is the problem and it always has been.


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Old 01-15-2013, 12:56 PM   #113
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1. My peoples creation story says we were created right here in our homeland....we did not come here from anywhere else !

2. So , you are a recognized Peace Chief ? Of which Tribe ? What are your credentials? Or are you just spouting more of that stereotypical bulls h i t ? That phrase offends me more than all the rest of your post !

Okay, so now you want to insult my intelligence by suggesting that our culture did not cross the Bearing Straights thousands of years ago. Suggest you read more about migration as it relates to our peoples. This has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. It doesn't take away the fact that we were created. Or dismiss the fact we come from some other place other than here.

I am not a recognized " Peace Chief" I have no credentials other than the fact I am a Cherokee Native. If you don't like reading my quote/unquote "stereotypical bullsh*t".....then don't read my post. I find your comments offensive to my intelligence and my culture. Its clear I was not attempting to do anything wrong other then convey a sense of peace with regards to my post. If all you took away from my post is I offended you, I suggest you move on because if offending someone is what it takes for them to see the truth behind the lies, so be it. I find your lack of understanding insulting!
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:12 PM   #114
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I hope it doesn't go anywhere, on suing the beer companies. Might as well sue Ford Car company cause that leads to drunk driving and while we are at it, lets sue all farmers for growing barley, hops, etc. cause those are ingredients in beer.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. If you know its a "dry" county, or reservation, don't drink there. Go where its legal to drink. Or, go back to the prohibition times and make a speak easy for yourself in you're home.

I own a Ford truck. I owned Ford trucks for quite some time now and doubt seriously that by driving one, I will drive drunk. (I don't drink, btw). Listen, people make up all kinds of excuses for the consumption of alcohol. Its a drug. Its legal. It has caused more death and destruction then all the wars combined this country has ever fought in. A fact. Comparing, say, steaks to alcohol. People eat meat knowing it may cause some to have health related issues down the road. Yet, people that eat steak (red meat) are not going to get into a vehicle and kill another simply because they ate red meat. However, personal choices made can have great affects on others who have nothing at all to do with those personal choices. Like a drunk going on and killing an entire family, but wait, he made a personal choice so that is his decision? Please. I have seen this nonsense so many times its insane. No one can tell another what to do, but we do create laws which are designed to protect us from such harm. Yet, it was a personal choice and thus its not the business owners fault I guess he sold a known alcoholic liquor and he done got into his car and flat out killed an entire family. The problem with alcohol is that our culture suffers the worst from it period. All I am saying is why? Personal choice? So the liquor store is right smack next to a res and the choice seems pretty clear. Its available and it keeps the business owner wealthy, while the natives suffer from its afflictions.......I get it!

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Old 01-15-2013, 01:29 PM   #115
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I am addressing several issues here with regards to alcohol. Its obvious that some may get the impression I am trying to tell them what to do. What is bad for you. Or that maybe you should avoid certain things in life.

I am not trying to tell anyone in here what to do with regards to alcohol or its consumption......


I do, however, think there is historical precedence to bring up the past with regards to liquor and its amazing availability for NA's right next to a reservation. I mean, this idea its a personal choice is only partly true. Once someone is addicted, they are addicted and thus they keep coming right back and spending all that hard earned cash to make that business and its owners real wealthy. This is why I bring in the past of our ancestors. Who themselves, suffered the same afflictions, but with greater affect as they literally were cheated out of lands because they were to intoxicated to know what they were signing. An historical fact if you like that sort of thing. There are many choices we make as human beings. The cost of health care is staggering and for NA's its imperative. These liquor stores make huge profits from our ignorance. I guess that's okay with some, but for me and many others, it is absolutely wrong.
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:48 PM   #116
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Pete, please edit your posts to cite your sources.

Also you can rattle off all the statistics you want but thats not going to change the fact that we all know that alcoholism is a problem in ndn communities and elsewhere, no one here is denying it. Suing beer companies isn't going to work. They make a completely legal product that millions of people enjoy responsibly. The beer companies sell to distributors who then either distribute to the stores or sell directly to the public. The stores are the entity that are taking advantage of the consumer. It's sounds like the gun debate, people want to sue companies like Smith and Wesson for deaths caused by a criminal using one of their products, which are fully legal to own in most states. The manufacturer didn't sell directly to the criminal they sold to a store who then sold to someone who most likely performed a "straw purchase".

I believe in the documentary that was posted they said that if reinstated the buffer zone would mean that the next nearest liquor store in 50 miles away, which means that people will drive 50 miles to buy booze and either consume down there and drive drunk for 50 miles or until the get into an accident or arrested -OR- they will begin smuggling it illegally back to the rez and upcharge for it in effect creating a black market. As NSB said "Speak Easys", which is exactly what will pop up under such a new limited radius prohibition. Adding to that there will suddenly be an increase in the crime rate when those places get busted and the owners and patrons get arrested and processed. If anything they need to bring it to a vote of the people who live in the 50 miles radius see what they want.

Also think of the broader impact as well. I'm not sure how many people live within 50 miles of Pine Ridge but I'm sure there are many responsible people, business owners, restaurants and taverns who, without a grandfather clause, would loose the right to sell, buy or consume alcohol on their properties or establishments.

Interesting fact: If it wasn't for prohibition, which failed miserably, we wouldn't have NASCAR.
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:00 PM   #117
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Okay, so now you want to insult my intelligence by suggesting that our culture did not cross the Bearing Straights thousands of years ago....
1) Decolonize your mind. It is so "white", secular humanist to treat religious stories as myths and metaphors. Do you deny your people's creation story? I doubt there is a land bridge in it.

2) Our culture? I'm not a Cherokee. My people have different ways and a different culture. There is no unified "Native American" culture.

3) Please consider that for those of us who come from cultures where the pipe is sacred, dominant culture "peace pipe" metaphors are offensive.

(I'll forego commenting on weird images conjured by a culture crossing a bridge. )


Now, for the issue at hand. Let's get real. What is suing the beer companies going to solve? Sure they're drawn to supply distributors in White Clay because there is money. The same reason that every few years someone tries to get a referendum repealing the ban on alcohol on the ballot up there.

OST Considers Lifting EtOH Ban

For whatever reason some people have issues with alcohol. But, the responsibility for dealing with this is ultimately personal. This not smallpox. This a spiritual illness, where you do choose to open yourself to that influence. You choose to embrace the false comfort of the substance, rather than face the spiritual failing in your life. Prohibition did not stop addiction, it just made it even more profitable. Addicts will get their fix, with or without White Clay.

Until we address individual responsibility, we can not make headway against this. Money from the beer companies and/or prohibition of sales will not stop it.
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Old 01-15-2013, 02:29 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Pete walkswithhorse;1555504[B
]I suppose one liners are okay for some.[/B] Me. I feel the need to explain my thoughts a little more rather then try and sum it all up with cute little quips and simple rhetoric. Alcohol is bad medicine for Native American's. The statistics back this claim up. Alcoholism is a serious issue with all human beings. Yet, our culture seems to be grossly afflicted by it. Look at the Eskimo culture. Look at the statistics. Many of which clearly demonstrate a culture in serious decline. Alcohol is merely a stepping stone to far more harmful drugs and far more greater problems like spousal abuse. Yet, many just act oblivious to its deleterious affects. Even ignorant. Its bad enough that our ancestors were duped into taking this bad medicine, now we must deal with present day tribes and nations, all with serious issues related to and directly stemming from alcohol. This idea its a personal decision is a fallacy. Sure, I can go to the bar and drink a beer and leave. Or I can choose to stay and drink until I am unconscious. Either way, for the typical NA, its bad medicine. Which is why we suffer the most from it and have been since it first made its appearance with the Conquistadors over five hundred years ago. If you drink alcohol, that is your business. When you go into these stores and buy the product, you are doing precisely what they want. Its an addiction supported by these so called beer stores. Many located literally within feet of the res. I think they should not be allowed to sell it anywhere near the res. That's, of course, my opinion.........


horse
You write like a white man. I bunch of rhetoric, trying to establish your point with ongoing words, graphs, pictures...blah, blah, blah.

Stop and read the one liners. Zeke says we are held responsible for our own actions. Put a bottle of alcohol is front of a person. Who is responsible for either drinking, or not drinking, from that bottle? You make it sound like the poor NDN is strong enough to make their own decision, when in fact, we are.

Mr. walkswithhorse, you think like a white man.

These are just my opinions. I'm just an old man trying to live today like it's my last. It's a good day to die.

Note: I've been on Pine Ridge. I've been through the streets of White Clay. I've seen people who have been on a week drunk.

I've also seen it in the city and they were white people.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:35 PM   #119
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Pete, please edit your posts to cite your sources.

Also you can rattle off all the statistics you want but thats not going to change the fact that we all know that alcoholism is a problem in ndn communities and elsewhere, no one here is denying it. Suing beer companies isn't going to work. They make a completely legal product that millions of people enjoy responsibly. The beer companies sell to distributors who then either distribute to the stores or sell directly to the public. The stores are the entity that are taking advantage of the consumer. It's sounds like the gun debate, people want to sue companies like Smith and Wesson for deaths caused by a criminal using one of their products, which are fully legal to own in most states. The manufacturer didn't sell directly to the criminal they sold to a store who then sold to someone who most likely performed a "straw purchase".

I believe in the documentary that was posted they said that if reinstated the buffer zone would mean that the next nearest liquor store in 50 miles away, which means that people will drive 50 miles to buy booze and either consume down there and drive drunk for 50 miles or until the get into an accident or arrested -OR- they will begin smuggling it illegally back to the rez and upcharge for it in effect creating a black market. As NSB said "Speak Easys", which is exactly what will pop up under such a new limited radius prohibition. Adding to that there will suddenly be an increase in the crime rate when those places get busted and the owners and patrons get arrested and processed. If anything they need to bring it to a vote of the people who live in the 50 miles radius see what they want.

Also think of the broader impact as well. I'm not sure how many people live within 50 miles of Pine Ridge but I'm sure there are many responsible people, business owners, restaurants and taverns who, without a grandfather clause, would loose the right to sell, buy or consume alcohol on their properties or establishments.

Interesting fact: If it wasn't for prohibition, which failed miserably, we wouldn't have NASCAR.

All I see are excuses why we ignore or even forget the issue of liquor being sold to NA's right next to a res.
The idea one may have to drive out of their way, heaven forbid. Or one may smuggle it back or worse yet, drive drunk on the way back to the res. Makes no sense what's so ever and is in fact a clever way to literally dodge the issue. Should alcoholic beverages be allowed to be sold right next to or within "X" amount of feet from a reservation. That is a matter for the courts to decide. In reality, suing a company is merely a formality. It brings attention to the issue(s) and allows them to be put in perspective. Which by the looks of things, that is what needs to happen. Of course, I am just voicing an opinion. Which I am allowed to do in this forum. That broader impact you mentioned. Well, I am sure if you check the statistics in similar cases, you will find little to no impact is felt. Like removing smoking from bars and restaurants for example. Everyone that ownes a small business cried and complained, but in reality they never lost a single dime. It was all grandstanding. Just like this issue with removing the liquor from in or near the res is.
"Oh, I will go out of business". Or, " I cannot afford to lose my liquor license". These same excuses have been utilized numerous times and have failed numerous times.


horse

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Old 01-15-2013, 03:54 PM   #120
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When I was a teenager in Ann Arbor, people could smoke marijuana in the privacy of their own homes and carry up to an ounce per person, they could grow two plants a person for their own consumption. It was illegal under any circumstances to sell it.

I wonder what would happen if we did that with alcohol? I guess you can't really because people could make harmful stuff, whether they want to or not. Like during prohibition when people drank embalming fluid, check out Boardwalk Empire. My family was all bootleggers and river and great lakes boat men for generations. Alcoholism was central to their traditions, living in the city, going to bars. This was a big change from their old homesteads and farms. They were cut off and lost, so alcoholism became their culture. Being in the city nurtured their alcoholism, so I disagree to some degree with the quote below.

Quote:
The answer? "Remote and destitute."

And we romanticize that reservation s-h-i-t.

There's your fundamental problem, not alcohol.
I agree with you on destitute, but remote? Perhaps they are not remote enough. That argument works as well. Being stranded on a desert island is likely to cure your alcoholism.

No one should be destitute, but alcohol is expensive, so how does that work? I can't afford to drink like some people I know. I don't know how they afford it. Some of this destitution is caused by alcoholism. People need to be able to live comfortably in whatever manner they choose, I like living off the land as much as I can. I stand by the right for everyone to have good land and live like that.

I think the true problem is having a hole in yourself that you try to fill. People only learn about this with some sort of spiritual talking, some deeper introspection. People have turned away from tradition and spirituality, this is a big part of the problem, and what should fill that hole perhaps. Would it have been easier if alcohol was never brought to the country? Yes, but there would be something else that would be the problem, things just happen that cause these holes, death, breakups, abuse, sometimes it just is there. This hole, or wound, is something that needs to be filled with good things that will never go away.

My mother in law told me that greed is letting the wendigo in you, like using too much maple sugar, anything not in moderation. It seems true. Greed in one part of your life can create a tendency of greed in other parts.

I think that Tecumseh's brother was right and in a way still is. I guess the question might be, why not follow better leaders? Why not turn to tradition and inner strength, and how do leaders motivate people to be stronger than the alcohol? Alcoholism and the problems it creates for the alcoholic becomes like a never ending emotional scarification process.

Last edited by muskrat_skull; 01-15-2013 at 03:55 PM.. Reason: quote tag messed up
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