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Old 01-15-2013, 03:54 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
1) Decolonize your mind. It is so "white", secular humanist to treat religious stories as myths and metaphors. Do you deny your people's creation story? I doubt there is a land bridge in it.

2) Our culture? I'm not a Cherokee. My people have different ways and a different culture. There is no unified "Native American" culture.

3) Please consider that for those of us who come from cultures where the pipe is sacred, dominant culture "peace pipe" metaphors are offensive.

(I'll forego commenting on weird images conjured by a culture crossing a bridge. )


Now, for the issue at hand. Let's get real. What is suing the beer companies going to solve? Sure they're drawn to supply distributors in White Clay because there is money. The same reason that every few years someone tries to get a referendum repealing the ban on alcohol on the ballot up there.

OST Considers Lifting EtOH Ban

For whatever reason some people have issues with alcohol. But, the responsibility for dealing with this is ultimately personal. This not smallpox. This a spiritual illness, where you do choose to open yourself to that influence. You choose to embrace the false comfort of the substance, rather than face the spiritual failing in your life. Prohibition did not stop addiction, it just made it even more profitable. Addicts will get their fix, with or without White Clay.

Until we address individual responsibility, we can not make headway against this. Money from the beer companies and/or prohibition of sales will not stop it.

The "land bridge" as you called it, did exist. Our people walked across that land bridge thousands of years ago. That fact has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt by both archeologist and paleontologist. Many of whom were NA's themselves. I wasn't attempting to rob you or your people of some cultural fact on where you came from. Further more, I happen to embrace a more modern view of where the native people came from. If that happens to interfere with your beliefs, I cannot help you there.


My sincere apologies to those I may have offended about the "peace pipe remark" Again, I never meant any harm and hope that you will forgive me. horse


I posted some very clear, concise facts about NA's and alcohol. I need not go on and on about it.


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Old 01-15-2013, 04:08 PM   #122
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Wearing my moderator hat, not my debating hat... @Pete walkswithhorse, please include citations for your posted material. This request is not be made to be argumentative. It is being made to avoid copyright infringement problems for the site owner. Thanks.
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:08 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
You write like a white man. I bunch of rhetoric, trying to establish your point with ongoing words, graphs, pictures...blah, blah, blah.

Stop and read the one liners. Zeke says we are held responsible for our own actions. Put a bottle of alcohol is front of a person. Who is responsible for either drinking, or not drinking, from that bottle? You make it sound like the poor NDN is strong enough to make their own decision, when in fact, we are.

Mr. walkswithhorse, you think like a white man.

These are just my opinions. I'm just an old man trying to live today like it's my last. It's a good day to die.

Note: I've been on Pine Ridge. I've been through the streets of White Clay. I've seen people who have been on a week drunk.

I've also seen it in the city and they were white people.

" you think like a white man "

Well that is because I am only part Cherokee and part white. However, I embrace my Cherokee side far more than my white side. Not entirely impossible.

" you write like a white man "

Well that is because I am only part Cherokee and part white. However, I embrace my Cherokee side far more than my white side. Not entirely impossible.


Now that we settled that, lets settle the matter at hand. I have very strong opinions about why liquor should NOT be sold in, around or near reservations. It has allot to do with cultural breakdown. Its easy for many to dismiss this as an individual decision/ choice and that is part of the problem. However, the larger problem is that the liquor is made available right there next to the res. Its inviting and tempting. Which in itself is obviously hard to resist. Personal decisions are not excuses for the problems caused by those natives that drink and have alcoholism. Or get into a wreck and kill someone for example. Does the person(s) killed have a choice? Do they? I strongly oppose alcohol being distributed in any form near a res period. If I haven't made that clear enough then I am sorry. That is my opinion and I have the right to express them in this forum even if I "write and talk" like a white man.


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Old 01-15-2013, 04:14 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Wearing my moderator hat, not my debating hat... @Pete walkswithhorse, please include citations for your posted material. This request is not be made to be argumentative. It is being made to avoid copyright infringement problems for the site owner. Thanks.
Consider it done the next time I post an article.

I might add, please inform those that make what I consider to be insulting remarks to tone it down. Since you have that moderators hat on, I think it fair only to make such a request of you......

Thank You

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Old 01-15-2013, 04:47 PM   #125
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I will accept your apology for the "Peace Pipe" remark. My GGG Grand Father was Black Kettle, leading Peace Chief of The Southern Cheyenne.

I don't believe you when you say you" embrace your Cherokee side far more than your white side". If you did you would know where your people really came from ! You see I know The Cherokee creation story and it does not involve a land bridge. Nor does The Cheyenne creation story.
I also don't care what archeologists and paleontologists have to say about it.They can not prove that those particular individuals that may have crossed a theoretical land bridge , colonized this entire country , creating a thousand or so "Tribes" and creating as many languages as there are. Sorry , I just don't buy it. I'll stick to My Peoples story !

Now,on the issue of alcohol. I am an alcoholic ! Haven't had a drink in over 20 years. That was my choice. No one forced me to drink, it was something I chose to do. I decided I wasn't going to live that way. It wasn't the beer bottle's fault , not the beer companies fault , not the vodka manufacturers fault.....only mine. People taking responsibility for their own actions.....period
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Old 01-15-2013, 05:53 PM   #126
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With consideration taken from your other posts since the reply quoted below I say this

What you are seeing is not excuses but the truth. If someone who is an alcoholic really wants booze they will drive 50 miles to find it.

Also it appears that you want the government to treat the tribes and the reservations as "nanny states" rather than letting them try to govern themselves. Also for the non tribal residents that live in the surrounding area who is to say that they are not allowed to consume alcohol.

In regards to suing the alcohol manufacturers and it having a drastic impact in the public spotlight, it would only last about a week. Remember Apple's big win against Samsung for well over a billion dollars? Huge patent lawsuit that has pretty much disappeared from the public spotlight.

You can't compare the smoking bans to this in the broader impact. With the smoking ban it was just a minor inconvenience for the patrons to walk outside and smoke rather than at the bar or table. We are talking about 50 miles not 50 feet.

I'm sorry but banning alcohol outside of the rez for a radius of 50 miles is just ridiculous and way too far left statist nonsense. Again that would set up a nanny state situation which means the tribes can't even govern themselves.

I'd type more but I've got to leave now. I will be back on later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete walkswithhorse View Post
All I see are excuses why we ignore or even forget the issue of liquor being sold to NA's right next to a res.
The idea one may have to drive out of their way, heaven forbid. Or one may smuggle it back or worse yet, drive drunk on the way back to the res. Makes no sense what's so ever and is in fact a clever way to literally dodge the issue. Should alcoholic beverages be allowed to be sold right next to or within "X" amount of feet from a reservation. That is a matter for the courts to decide. In reality, suing a company is merely a formality. It brings attention to the issue(s) and allows them to be put in perspective. Which by the looks of things, that is what needs to happen. Of course, I am just voicing an opinion. Which I am allowed to do in this forum. That broader impact you mentioned. Well, I am sure if you check the statistics in similar cases, you will find little to no impact is felt. Like removing smoking from bars and restaurants for example. Everyone that ownes a small business cried and complained, but in reality they never lost a single dime. It was all grandstanding. Just like this issue with removing the liquor from in or near the res is.
"Oh, I will go out of business". Or, " I cannot afford to lose my liquor license". These same excuses have been utilized numerous times and have failed numerous times.


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Old 01-15-2013, 06:30 PM   #127
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I will accept your apology for the "Peace Pipe" remark. My GGG Grand Father was Black Kettle, leading Peace Chief of The Southern Cheyenne.

I don't believe you when you say you" embrace your Cherokee side far more than your white side". If you did you would know where your people really came from ! You see I know The Cherokee creation story and it does not involve a land bridge. Nor does The Cheyenne creation story.
I also don't care what archeologists and paleontologists have to say about it.They can not prove that those particular individuals that may have crossed a theoretical land bridge , colonized this entire country , creating a thousand or so "Tribes" and creating as many languages as there are. Sorry , I just don't buy it. I'll stick to My Peoples story !

Now,on the issue of alcohol. I am an alcoholic ! Haven't had a drink in over 20 years. That was my choice. No one forced me to drink, it was something I chose to do. I decided I wasn't going to live that way. It wasn't the beer bottle's fault , not the beer companies fault , not the vodka manufacturers fault.....only mine. People taking responsibility for their own actions.....period
Me too. I'm working on my 11th year.

Congratulations on 20 years.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:46 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wardancer View Post
I will accept your apology for the "Peace Pipe" remark. My GGG Grand Father was Black Kettle, leading Peace Chief of The Southern Cheyenne.

I don't believe you when you say you" embrace your Cherokee side far more than your white side". If you did you would know where your people really came from ! You see I know The Cherokee creation story and it does not involve a land bridge. Nor does The Cheyenne creation story.
I also don't care what archeologists and paleontologists have to say about it.They can not prove that those particular individuals that may have crossed a theoretical land bridge , colonized this entire country , creating a thousand or so "Tribes" and creating as many languages as there are. Sorry , I just don't buy it. I'll stick to My Peoples story !

Now,on the issue of alcohol. I am an alcoholic ! Haven't had a drink in over 20 years. That was my choice. No one forced me to drink, it was something I chose to do. I decided I wasn't going to live that way. It wasn't the beer bottle's fault , not the beer companies fault , not the vodka manufacturers fault.....only mine. People taking responsibility for their own actions.....period
Chief Black Kettle of The Southern Cheyenne? The same Chief Black Kettle whose people and encampment were massacred by Federal Army Troops? The same Chief Black Kettle who upon seeing those troops, raised an American flag that was a gift to him from President Abraham Lincoln?

I am in awe. I have nothing but the greatest respect for this particular Chief. I have read many versions of that day, but somehow, I cannot come to terms with why and how such a terrible tragedy was allowed to happen to begin with. I am, of course, referring to the "Sand Creek Massacre" which occurred in the late 1800's. Please accept my sincere condolences for your grandfather and his people. I really mean that with all my heart. Even now I cannot speak of this without getting emotional. I once spoke with a man who was a combat veteran from WWII. I really don't recall his name and wish I did. We talked mostly about WWII and history. Near the end of our conversation, I asked if he might be NA. He said yes and proceeded to tell me he was from the Southern Cheyenne Nation. We talked longer and he began to tell me the story of his grandmother who was at that massacre and killed. Needless to say, I can be emotional about such things. I was simply unprepared for the brutality of what he described and I thought about how these people, many women and children were mowed down and killed for absolutely nothing. I am sorry about going on. Its really not polite of me to talk about your GGG Grandfather like this, but please know this, I have great respect for him and you. Thank you for sharing with me.

I think the issue of the alcohol near the res will be resolved maybe in a court of law perhaps. I am very outspoken about this issue. I am sure you can see this, but respect you and your opinion(s) no matter what.


As for the land bridge. I do respect our culture and the story of where our people originated. I am just trying to express a more modern approach and the last thing I wanted was to offend you or any other member in here by my remarks. So please again, accept my apologies. I am a new poster and have much to learn and it seems those lessons are being learned right here right now. Thank you again Wardancer.

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Old 01-15-2013, 10:59 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
With consideration taken from your other posts since the reply quoted below I say this

What you are seeing is not excuses but the truth. If someone who is an alcoholic really wants booze they will drive 50 miles to find it.

Also it appears that you want the government to treat the tribes and the reservations as "nanny states" rather than letting them try to govern themselves. Also for the non tribal residents that live in the surrounding area who is to say that they are not allowed to consume alcohol.

In regards to suing the alcohol manufacturers and it having a drastic impact in the public spotlight, it would only last about a week. Remember Apple's big win against Samsung for well over a billion dollars? Huge patent lawsuit that has pretty much disappeared from the public spotlight.

You can't compare the smoking bans to this in the broader impact. With the smoking ban it was just a minor inconvenience for the patrons to walk outside and smoke rather than at the bar or table. We are talking about 50 miles not 50 feet.

I'm sorry but banning alcohol outside of the rez for a radius of 50 miles is just ridiculous and way too far left statist nonsense. Again that would set up a nanny state situation which means the tribes can't even govern themselves.

I'd type more but I've got to leave now. I will be back on later.

Toolbox.....

We can not win a battle of words in here. I posted what I thought were very clear demonstrations about why liquor should not be sold in, around or near any reservation. If its available, it will only make matters worse. However, be that as it may, please accept the fact we both have our own opinions and there is no reason for either of us or any other member in here to take what I say either out of context or simply the wrong way.

This issue will resolve itself and not in here in these forums. As for the nanny comment. I can see where you are going with that. However, the last thing I am is some extremist with crazy delusions of the government of the United States looking out after us. I agree its a tribal, reservation issue and must be dealt with by the people of those respective nations and reservations. The last thing we need is more governmental nonsense. No arguments there. Not even a debate.

BTW I enjoy reading your replies. You, Zeke, Wardancer and others are giving me an education in here. The last thing I want is to cause any of you to dislike me or not communicate with me. Thanks.........

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Old 01-15-2013, 11:09 PM   #130
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No ill-will on this end. So far this thread has been fairly peaceful in terms of the debate, no major arguing. This is what we like to see on Powwows.com.

Quote:
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Toolbox.....

We can not win a battle of words in here. I posted what I thought were very clear demonstrations about why liquor should not be sold in, around or near any reservation. If its available, it will only make matters worse. However, be that as it may, please accept the fact we both have our own opinions and there is no reason for either of us or any other member in here to take what I say either out of context or simply the wrong way.

This issue will resolve itself and not in here in these forums. As for the nanny comment. I can see where you are going with that. However, the last thing I am is some extremist with crazy delusions of the government of the United States looking out after us. I agree its a tribal, reservation issue and must be dealt with by the people of those respective nations and reservations. The last thing we need is more governmental nonsense. No arguments there. Not even a debate.

BTW I enjoy reading your replies. You, Zeke, Wardancer and others are giving me an education in here. The last thing I want is to cause any of you to dislike me or not communicate with me. Thanks.........

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Old 01-16-2013, 12:12 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete walkswithhorse View Post
Chief Black Kettle of The Southern Cheyenne? The same Chief Black Kettle whose people and encampment were massacred by Federal Army Troops? The same Chief Black Kettle who upon seeing those troops, raised an American flag that was a gift to him from President Abraham Lincoln?

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The one and the same. My avatar pic is his Grandson , Stacy Riggs (Little Red Bird) , survivor of The Sand Creek and Wash ita River Massacres , the Dull knife fight , and sat on the hill and watched the Little Big Horn Battle. I know my Families history.
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They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

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Old 01-16-2013, 02:12 AM   #132
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The one and the same. My avatar pic is his Grandson , Stacy Riggs (Little Red Bird) , survivor of The Sand Creek and Wash ita River Massacres , the Dull knife fight , and sat on the hill and watched the Little Big Horn Battle. I know my Families history.
All truly amazing men. Again thank you for sharing this with me. I have read quite allot about the massacre at Sand Creek. It has been called the worst attack on NA's ever because these were peaceful natives who did not take up arms against the Army. Yet, they were butchered helplessly. I cannot imagine the horror. I believe you do know your families history. Its a very proud and honorable history.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:14 AM   #133
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I posted some very clear, concise facts about NA's and alcohol.
Not one of which proved anything relevant to an argument based in prohibition. (You realize that's been tried, right?)

There is only one fundamental fork in the philosophical road:

Are we, or are we not, responsible for our own actions as Native people?

Admittedly, I own my own soapbox on some issues but this seems WAY too personal to you and I perceive a general lack of objectivity.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:14 AM   #134
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No ill-will on this end. So far this thread has been fairly peaceful in terms of the debate, no major arguing. This is what we like to see on Powwows.com.
Agreed and you will have no issues from me. Thanks


horse
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:18 AM   #135
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Not one of which proved anything relevant to an argument based in prohibition. (You realize that's been tried, right?)

There is only one fundamental fork in the philosophical road:

Are we, or are we not, responsible for our own actions as Native people?

Admittedly, I own my own soapbox on some issues but this seems WAY too personal to you and I perceive a general lack of objectivity.
You must make that choice Zeke. Share / don't share.

I think the issues regarding this will be resolved one day.

Everyone bears some responsibility in this matter..........
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:32 AM   #136
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I think the issues regarding this will be resolved one day.

Everyone bears some responsibility in this matter..........
1. The issues are resolved.
2. The only thing left is choice.

If you dislike the choices being made, blame the people making them and not those making them available.

To do otherwise seems a bit silly.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:38 AM   #137
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" you think like a white man "

Well that is because I am only part Cherokee and part white. However, I embrace my Cherokee side far more than my white side. Not entirely impossible.

" you write like a white man "

Well that is because I am only part Cherokee and part white. However, I embrace my Cherokee side far more than my white side. Not entirely impossible.


Now that we settled that, lets settle the matter at hand. I have very strong opinions about why liquor should NOT be sold in, around or near reservations. It has allot to do with cultural breakdown. Its easy for many to dismiss this as an individual decision/ choice and that is part of the problem. However, the larger problem is that the liquor is made available right there next to the res. Its inviting and tempting. Which in itself is obviously hard to resist. Personal decisions are not excuses for the problems caused by those natives that drink and have alcoholism. Or get into a wreck and kill someone for example. Does the person(s) killed have a choice? Do they? I strongly oppose alcohol being distributed in any form near a res period. If I haven't made that clear enough then I am sorry. That is my opinion and I have the right to express them in this forum even if I "write and talk" like a white man.


walkswithhorse
mr walkswithhorse,

you are entitled to your opinion of alcohol being sold near a reservation.

What have you done...personally...other than express your opinion...to stop something you so vehemently oppose?
__________________


Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:49 PM   #138
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1. The issues are resolved.
2. The only thing left is choice.

If you dislike the choices being made, blame the people making them and not those making them available.

To do otherwise seems a bit silly.
I love pragmatism.

The problem is, getting people to sober up enough where they can make a choice and exercise their will fully. Maybe a temporary ban is something that is useful in that way, I don't know. It certainly will not help everyone, because there are some people that are just gonna drink to way beyond excess, no matter how weak it makes them or how many people they hurt. And if it isn't alcohol, then it will be something else.

I think that there is two types of responsibility-- the "historical" responsibility--yes if alcohol had never been brought here or things wouldn't have gone a certain way or if a store hadnt been built or a beer company even been started--then this particular problem wouldn't exist.

Then there is the pragmatic type of responsibility in that, I can only change what I can control, I can only control what I take responsibility for. I am responsible for drinking, personally, pragmatically, if I choose to do so. If not, then no one would be able to quit drinking and every alcoholic would face a hopeless existence.

But, alcoholics cannot quit while drunk, at least 99% of them. And they need support until their brain is functioning properly again and they are strong enough to maintain. Pragmatically, someone has to pay for education, support systems, interventions, and dry out. If the companies are pushing an addicting, even toxic product, then let them pay the cost of this incidental damages rather than government and communities. So tax em, fine em, whatever and let someone oversee that "help" from liquor companies doesn't just amount to a website and pamphlets. I personally don't want to pay for someone's drinking habit, since I don't drink, but if I did, I would just accept a higher price on liquor, since no one plans to be an alcoholic, well, maybe a few people , and the help would be there for me as well.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:48 PM   #139
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Old 01-16-2013, 03:21 PM   #140
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