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Old 01-16-2013, 03:41 PM   #141
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We can bring back the Indian Agents cause they know whats best for Indians. and lets not allow the Indians to leave the rez without a passport and a letter of allowing them to roam freely from the Indian Agent. We need to keep the Red Children in check since they can't handle their alcohol. We'll let the government take care of them.

Oh wait, this was already tried. It didn't work.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:41 PM   #142
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:42 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by muskrat_skull View Post
I love pragmatism.

The problem is, getting people to sober up enough where they can make a choice and exercise their will fully. Maybe a temporary ban is something that is useful in that way, I don't know. It certainly will not help everyone, because there are some people that are just gonna drink to way beyond excess, no matter how weak it makes them or how many people they hurt. And if it isn't alcohol, then it will be something else.

I think that there is two types of responsibility-- the "historical" responsibility--yes if alcohol had never been brought here or things wouldn't have gone a certain way or if a store hadnt been built or a beer company even been started--then this particular problem wouldn't exist.

Then there is the pragmatic type of responsibility in that, I can only change what I can control, I can only control what I take responsibility for. I am responsible for drinking, personally, pragmatically, if I choose to do so. If not, then no one would be able to quit drinking and every alcoholic would face a hopeless existence.

But, alcoholics cannot quit while drunk, at least 99% of them. And they need support until their brain is functioning properly again and they are strong enough to maintain. Pragmatically, someone has to pay for education, support systems, interventions, and dry out. If the companies are pushing an addicting, even toxic product, then let them pay the cost of this incidental damages rather than government and communities. So tax em, fine em, whatever and let someone oversee that "help" from liquor companies doesn't just amount to a website and pamphlets. I personally don't want to pay for someone's drinking habit, since I don't drink, but if I did, I would just accept a higher price on liquor, since no one plans to be an alcoholic, well, maybe a few people , and the help would be there for me as well.
^^^^^^This was an excellent post. Spot on........
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:45 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Ndnsoldierboy View Post
We can bring back the Indian Agents cause they know whats best for Indians. and lets not allow the Indians to leave the rez without a passport and a letter of allowing them to roam freely from the Indian Agent. We need to keep the Red Children in check since they can't handle their alcohol. We'll let the government take care of them.

Oh wait, this was already tried. It didn't work.
I think tribal leaders should decide what is best for their people. The United States government has already turned much of this into FUBAR! I cannot see how anything they do can possibly help deter, prevent, stop, alter this problem. Besides......its an NDN issue period.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:54 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
mr walkswithhorse,

you are entitled to your opinion of alcohol being sold near a reservation.

What have you done...personally...other than express your opinion...to stop something you so vehemently oppose?
I agree with you. Actions do speak louder than words. That is wise. Maybe your right. Perhaps I should write my Congressman to start with and request assistance in this matter. I probably won't hold my breath though because ndn matters in MD are somewhat limited. Let alone dealt with. So my next option would be to write the Congressman/women of those states affected by this problem. Again, I sense a roadblock coming. As in I will likely get no where. The next thing I could do ( and I want to do this ) is literally come out and volunteer my services. I admit I am not fully prepared for such an adventure and it is a daunting task, but I do actually care about our culture even though I am not full blooded. Perhaps I can volunteer in a clinic or just ask what I can do? I think volunteering is the best way. In the end though I agree with you
totally, but this matter must be settled by tribal leaders and their people and not the US government. That is the last entity needed to help here with this.
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Old 01-17-2013, 01:57 AM   #146
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:07 AM   #147
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Even if they don't win, it raises awareness and the concern for the community needs to show its alive and willing to fight. Unfortunately, even if the do win, it won't help much beyond that. As a physician that worked with addicts of all kinds, I can tell you that I don't meet addicts that are spiritually sound. The reasons are often about some kind of loss or void. whether its something tragic, wanting to belong, lonliness, self-loathing, etc. I think as concerned Natives, this should be understood. Alcohol consumption is a by-product or symptom of some level of spiritual depravity. When understood this way, supplying the alcohol is a form of exploitation of ppl with a predisposition that feel a void but want to feel whole. Beer companies advertise themselves as the answer. I see it like long lost loves searching for each other but then someone comes along and kills one of them and deceives the other posing as this long lost love. The pre-addict asks, Is it you? Is it you? And the Deceiver answers back, Yes, I am the One you have been looking for. So that is the first crime, is the deception. The 2nd crime is actually a crime of collusion by Western medicine, which separates the body, mind, and spirit. So when the pre-addict feels something from this deception and progresses to addiction, it is understood as a blood or chemical reaction to the body. After sometime, advances have been made and now some might speak more about how its a reaction of the mind as well. But stepping into the medical realm of the spirit, which is the root cause, is the territory of the Church, so very little recognition will be given to this root cause medically. The Church institution however falls short here because its interest are to to convert. The actual practice of spiritual healing is very little. So, I have three points I want to make from this. 1. The door for the Deceiver is open for these communities, even if they do have a prohibition law in place, so simply having land in a country who's rules are over yours--Its not enough. You really need to have your own country and the right to rule, prosecute, defend, etc.. Native cultures subservience to American culture is a major part of the spiritual depravity. This is where having your own country helps the spirit become united with self-determination. (For example, having the right to make relations with other countries indpendently) 2. The only way to close the door is to be spiritually healed and maintain/develop ways of becoming spiritually sound. Making it an active process that goes beyond ritual, and develop a spiritual curriculum that yields tangible results. You must remember body,mind,spirit are one and not separate, so there should be tangible results. (For example: making films are a way to make dreams and has body, mind, spirit ramifications) 3.You can blame the Deceiver, the addict, the Western way of seeing but legal action, although I hope they win, is a defeatist attitude if that is all they do and learn from this. Its like a dog that learns a trick to get a treat. The Wild, in the good sense of the word, needs to be put back into ppl. The fight needs to be more pervasive extending throughout the spirit, and not just stop at asking for judgement from white men. All of this really speaks to the disconnect with who they are or maybe were. Their environment is made in the image without them. The spiritual prison extends beyond the Christianity assault, but also the spiritual prison of not having true self-determination, and environment that reflects their free will. Having the right "to do what you want," except when white ppl tell you what to do is not only a humiliation, but asking the architects of the spiritual prison to be your savior once again, is limited in what it can offer.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:19 PM   #148
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:56 PM   #149
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Now there are some white prisoners in Idaho doing the same thing, trying to sue alcohol companies as well. Saying that alcohol is the cause of their crimes.

I still hope that none of these people get any money with these dumb lawsuits. NDN or white.

Personal responsibility is out the window if the they win.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:28 AM   #150
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Personal responsibility is out the window if the they win.
This guy GETS IT.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:33 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ndnsoldierboy View Post
Now there are some white prisoners in Idaho doing the same thing, trying to sue alcohol companies as well. Saying that alcohol is the cause of their crimes.

I still hope that none of these people get any money with these dumb lawsuits. NDN or white.

Personal responsibility is out the window if the they win.
Personal responsibility should definitely be upheld. Crimes should not be excused, period. But the root issue is alcohol supplying/dealing & over-consumption to Native communities. You don't kick someone when they are down either. How about personal responsibility for everyone? Corporations and dealers have no responsibility? I think there is a shared responsibility here that creates this situation. The corporation and the user should both pay to some kind of fund to prevent this epidemic. Maybe a % of profits from the corp. and a % of income from the user, like child alimony. If the drug dealer was legalized would you say the samething? How about the human trafficker? Tobacco companies? Does personal responsibility always mean responsibility of the individual?
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:46 PM   #152
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...the root issue is alcohol supplying/dealing & over-consumption to Native communities.
B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.

The root issue is the misuse of a legal product.

Let me guess, you sided with the person who litigated McDonald's for serving hot coffee?

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Does personal responsibility always mean responsibility of the individual?
Yes. That's why it's personal. (It's sort of definitional.)

Thus far, I have been kind but I am reaching critical mass on nuking via draft this sort of embarrassing and dehumanizing bunk.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:49 PM   #153
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B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.

The root issue is the misuse of a legal product.

Let me guess, you sided with the person who litigated McDonald's for serving hot coffee?



Yes. That's why it's personal. (It's sort of definitional.)

Thus far, I have been kind but I am reaching critical mass on nuking via draft this sort of embarrassing and dehumanizing bunk.
Your missing my point. I guess I should say (for Zeke), is responsibility only personal? You know, if you want to get technical, corps. are considered individuals.

clarification: In the case of drug-dealing or human-trafficking, the dealers and traffickers are prosecuted to a fuller extent than the users. There is a recognition that the suppliers are the bringer of evils. So you should wonder, why, in the case of beer & reservation, this tacit rule is not upheld? Why? because its legal? Who makes it legal? Why do they make it legal? Why it gets shipped there, supplied there? Who is the target/user? And I think the point of the community's lawsuit is that they don't want to be targeted.

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Old 01-24-2013, 02:24 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ndnsoldierboy View Post
Now there are some white prisoners in Idaho doing the same thing, trying to sue alcohol companies as well. Saying that alcohol is the cause of their crimes.

I still hope that none of these people get any money with these dumb lawsuits. NDN or white.

Personal responsibility is out the window if the they win.
I agree but since i don't drink, why should I pay for detox and health care or liver transplants for alcoholics.

What do you think about people paying a tax or fee per beverage to pay for these services and having a third party or government, even tribal government, pay for these things? Wouldn't that be the ultimate personal responsibility? I think a dime a beer. More for liquor. It wont cover it all, but its a start.

You aren't gonna find deeply personally responsible alcoholics and even cigarette smokers, or they wouldn't smoke or drink. Its a fact that even having insurance doesn't entirely pay for the cost of cigarette and alcohol based health problems. You have no idea the cost of care these people have once they are sick.

Now if the asbestos companies have to pay even now for people who even knowingly work with asbestos, having been informed ahead of time, then why not alcohol or tobacco? These are addictive as well as hazardous products.

No one plans to be an alcoholic or addict. That is the problem. you think it can't happen to you. Their ability to be responsible on their own is hindered by their condition. Thats what the drunk tank is for. But they can be made to be responsible up front by paying a tax.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:32 PM   #155
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I agree but since i don't drink, why should I pay for detox and health care or liver transplants for alcoholics.

What do you think about people paying a tax or fee per beverage to pay for these services and having a third party or government, even tribal government, pay for these things? Wouldn't that be the ultimate personal responsibility? I think a dime a beer. More for liquor. It wont cover it all, but its a start.
Good point about the unfair burden the community pays.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:47 AM   #156
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I think the point of the community's lawsuit is that they don't want to be targeted.
If purchasing is a choice they're NOT being "targeted."
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Old 01-26-2013, 02:56 PM   #157
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If purchasing is a choice they're NOT being "targeted."
Of course, it makes sense, but I'm wondering what your intention is. In the end, alcohol issue, just comes down to validating viewpoints, no? So ppl just need to validate with reason, and bottom line, everybody is right, just not agreeable to each other. Unless we all agree, we get stuck into differing viewpoints, and some bigger power rules. So, can we go alittle further? What are you really trying to say? Are you saying to resign (status quo), self-sufficiency, your own country, what...or do you not know? Challenging respectfully.
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Old 01-26-2013, 06:17 PM   #158
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In the end, alcohol issue, just comes down to validating viewpoints, no?

I think that if we don't take responsibility for our own actions then nothing will ever be "solved" And in spite of everyone claiming "sovereignty",we are really just wards of The U.S. Government.
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Old 01-26-2013, 07:35 PM   #159
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I think that if we don't take responsibility for our own actions then nothing will ever be "solved" And in spite of everyone claiming "sovereignty",we are really just wards of The U.S. Government.
Yea, I agree. It's sad that that becomes the conclusion. Thus, they drink. Round and round we go.
There! We lost another one, we lost another one, but you and I are ok, but still we lose another one. Waiting for ppl to take responsibility for their actions. And, another one. Who will intercede? Still waiting, and waiting. And another one. Let's pat ourselves on the back. Here, let's try something different, I'll pat yours, you pat mine. And still we lose another one. Round and round....
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Old 01-26-2013, 08:16 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by reocurringdream View Post
Yea, I agree. It's sad that that becomes the conclusion. Thus, they drink. Round and round we go.
There! We lost another one, we lost another one, but you and I are ok, but still we lose another one. Waiting for ppl to take responsibility for their actions. And, another one. Who will intercede? Still waiting, and waiting. And another one. Let's pat ourselves on the back. Here, let's try something different, I'll pat yours, you pat mine. And still we lose another one. Round and round....
Why should anyone intercede ? Survival of the fittest. Simple !

No one interceded for me. I'm an alcoholic....20+ years sober.....nobody held my hand , I quit on my own.
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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