Register Groups Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Forum Home - Go Back > Pow Wow Arena > Men's Dance Styles > Gourd Dance Cheyenne Origins of Gourd Dance? Cheyenne Origins of Gourd Dance?

Reply LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-19-2005, 04:24 AM   #21
USMC
 
Zotigh's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zotigh has a reputation beyond repute
Zotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 358
Credits: 1,588.46
Savings: 1.00
No one can prove ownership of the Gourd Dance. I agree. There are no 'time machines'.

We have little written history. We have no one alive today from that time.

What we have is oral tradition.

Biased or not...the fact that the Gourd Dance songs today are 90% sung in Kiowa, and the recorded modern history of the revival of the dance from the late 1950's onwards was possible because of Kiowa elders that remembered the dance and songs, as well as having the most repeated ancient oral history of our dance is heavy evidence that the Gourd Dance is of Kiowa origin.

Looking back on the posts in this forum alone, which reflect the traditions of those whom have made their way to this modern media, one is overwhelmed by the historical content provided by those Kiowa members whom have posted reasons and explanations describing our dance.

At the same time...no one here has said folks could not dance Gourd. Only our headmen could make that decree.

As a Kiowa...I add my input just in hopes that folks would honour the dance, and understand the reasons for the many many traditions that constitute our dance.

I personally hope that in whatever society you dance has sanction from one of the Kiowa gourd societies. We can't stop the spread. I hope that there is enough respect to adhere to the same traditions and protocols, and that those protocols and traditions are continued to be exemplified by our Kiowa Gourd Clan, so that the dance remains near to its intent.
__________________
Scott Zotigh
Kiowa Black Leggings
Kiowa Gourd Clan
Kiowa Tiah Piah
Kiowa Marine Veterans
American Indian Veterans


Last edited by Zotigh; 10-19-2005 at 04:28 AM..
Zotigh is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 10-19-2005, 06:21 AM   #22
Powwow Dude
 
Josiah's Avatar
 
Items DevilUser Name Style ChangeUser Title Style Change
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Center of the Universe: Oklahoma
Posts: 7,097
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 38,634.63
Savings: 1.00
Despite the "Legend" about the orgins of the Cheyenne Gourd clan which I understand would bring anger to some...
I have witinessed the complete respect for the Dance itself and its roots. It may have sprung up from several sources or only one. It has spread beyond Oklahoma, I have participated in a dance out here in North Carolina and there are very small differences
But the respect is still there!
I hope it will always be that way!!!
Josiah is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 10-28-2005, 01:24 PM   #23
Pow Wow Visitor
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Cheyennewarrior2004 is an unknown quantity at this point
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Well to be honest I was told the same story by my grandpa. I am not one to go against what my grandpa said nor do i think it is a laughable issue!

To put it mildly, you have your beliefs and I believe what my grandpa said. Go ask the Cheyenne's at Watonga, Hammon Lame Deer, Busby or the Arapaho's at Ethete or Geary and see what they have to say about the issue.

Will you laugh at them? Will you put them down too? We know where it came from and what is associated with it as well But we don't toot our own horn by claiming it as "ours".
If you have it great and if not then so be it....

To laugh at traditions passed down is wrong!
Cheyennewarrior2004 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 10-29-2005, 01:23 PM   #24
USMC
 
Zotigh's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zotigh has a reputation beyond repute
Zotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 358
Credits: 1,588.46
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheyennewarrior2004
To laugh at traditions passed down is wrong!
To slander the Kiowa tribe is wrong.

How is it that in your 'origins of the gourd dance', there is only a passing explanation of how you got the dance, and the bulk of the story of the 'origins' is dedicated to slandering the Kiowa, accusing them of capturing, torturing, stealing and murdering?

The message of your story seems to simply be, "..the Kiowa stole our dance and killed us.".

As a Kiowa, I'd rather find humour in it. 'Cause otherwise, it's pretty insulting towards our tribe.

That said. Those stories are a legacy of your family and it is honourable that you keep them. Neither you nor I were alive back then. We should each continue to keep the legacies handed down to us.
__________________
Scott Zotigh
Kiowa Black Leggings
Kiowa Gourd Clan
Kiowa Tiah Piah
Kiowa Marine Veterans
American Indian Veterans

Zotigh is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-03-2005, 11:49 PM   #25
I don't do this for fun!
 
TacO5000's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
TacO5000 has a reputation beyond repute
TacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 742
Credits: 232.00
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheyennewarrior2004
Well to be honest I was told the same story by my grandpa. I am not one to go against what my grandpa said nor do i think it is a laughable issue!

To put it mildly, you have your beliefs and I believe what my grandpa said. Go ask the Cheyenne's at Watonga, Hammon Lame Deer, Busby or the Arapaho's at Ethete or Geary and see what they have to say about the issue.

Will you laugh at them? Will you put them down too? We know where it came from and what is associated with it as well But we don't toot our own horn by claiming it as "ours".
If you have it great and if not then so be it....

To laugh at traditions passed down is wrong!
I have a question for you cheyenne warrior. If this dance is from the cheyenne than why do almost all the songs have kiowa words? did the cheyennes speak kiowa, and decieded to put the kiowa language in thoses songs?

Those gourd dance songs come from our different socities.
THOSE SONGS ARE KIOWA!

The Gourd dance was part of our ska-tow(sp?)(sun dance)

The Cheyenne have there own sun dance, different than our was. Yall pireced yourselves, we danced and sang gourd dance in part of it.
__________________
Dayum I make some keen DrumSticks!!!!!!
TacO5000 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-04-2005, 02:30 PM   #26
Pow Wow Visitor
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Cheyennewarrior2004 is an unknown quantity at this point
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
again read what i wrote....
you have your beliefs and i have mine....

i am not going to enter into a "pissing" contest concerning this issue either!

You have a problem with what my grandpa said? then so be it, again I am not going to go against what my grandpa passed down to me.
Cheyennewarrior2004 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-04-2005, 03:34 PM   #27
Junior Dancer
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
ma-heench is just really nice
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 104
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Cheyenne Gourd Dance

This is a very interesting topic. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to provide information. This is why when we pray we say we are pitiful. As people, our memories are not perfect, our tempers are not perfect, but we continue to try to remain what we were created: Native.

I had been told the Kiowa story of the gourd dance by a former chief of the Kiowa. I had never thought about the origin of the Cheyenne Gourd Dance as other than part of the Sun Dance, which I know that they still practice. Do the Kiowa still continue the practice of the Sun Dance.

If we respect tradition (which is handing down information orally) than we cannot condemn either story and only be grateful that they do both still exist. And the Kiowas shouldn't feel so bad about having captured the songs, because at one time in our history as Natives capturing a treasured item from an enemy was a celebrated deed.

Best wishes and respect to all on both sides of this interesting debate.
ma-heench is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-04-2005, 04:49 PM   #28
Powwow Dude
 
Josiah's Avatar
 
Items DevilUser Name Style ChangeUser Title Style Change
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Center of the Universe: Oklahoma
Posts: 7,097
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 38,634.63
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by ma-heench
This is a very interesting topic. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to provide information. This is why when we pray we say we are pitiful. As people, our memories are not perfect, our tempers are not perfect, but we continue to try to remain what we were created: Native.

I had been told the Kiowa story of the gourd dance by a former chief of the Kiowa. I had never thought about the origin of the Cheyenne Gourd Dance as other than part of the Sun Dance, which I know that they still practice. Do the Kiowa still continue the practice of the Sun Dance.

If we respect tradition (which is handing down information orally) than we cannot condemn either story and only be grateful that they do both still exist. And the Kiowas shouldn't feel so bad about having captured the songs, because at one time in our history as Natives capturing a treasured item from an enemy was a celebrated deed.

Best wishes and respect to all on both sides of this interesting debate.
Well Put and Well Said
Wado
Josiah is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-04-2005, 05:24 PM   #29
PauWau Coordinator
 
WhoMe's Avatar
 
Items Devil
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
WhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond repute
WhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties
Posts: 7,150
Credits: 11,582.70
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by ma-heench
I had been told the Kiowa story of the gourd dance by a former chief of the Kiowa. I had never thought about the origin of the Cheyenne Gourd Dance as other than part of the Sun Dance, which I know that they still practice. Do the Kiowa still continue the practice of the Sun Dance.

If we respect tradition (which is handing down information orally) than we cannot condemn either story and only be grateful that they do both still exist. And the Kiowas shouldn't feel so bad about having captured the songs, because at one time in our history as Natives capturing a treasured item from an enemy was a celebrated deed.

.
Uhhh Ma-heench,

There are no living Kiowa chiefs since the late 1800's.

How old are you? Can you hear something we can't?

I really don't think the Kiowa captured any songs from anyone....


"Anymore than Columbus can discover America - when there were already people living here."
__________________
Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.
WhoMe is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-04-2005, 11:05 PM   #30
I don't do this for fun!
 
TacO5000's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
TacO5000 has a reputation beyond repute
TacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond reputeTacO5000 has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 742
Credits: 232.00
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by ma-heench
If we respect tradition (which is handing down information orally) than we cannot condemn either story and only be grateful that they do both still exist. And the Kiowas shouldn't feel so bad about having captured the songs, because at one time in our history as Natives capturing a treasured item from an enemy was a celebrated deed.

Best wishes and respect to all on both sides of this interesting debate.
you must be cheyenne also ma-heench.....

ok you cheyenne guys... do you have a cheyenne gourd dance calling song? do you enough songs to sing a full afternoon of gourd dance with out using kiowa songs? I mean lemme know.....?
cheyenne warrior I am not tryna disrepect you or your grandpa... but, If he told you that the cheyenne can fly would you believe him????

just wondering.....
__________________
Dayum I make some keen DrumSticks!!!!!!
TacO5000 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-05-2005, 08:16 AM   #31
Powwow Dude
 
Josiah's Avatar
 
Items DevilUser Name Style ChangeUser Title Style Change
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Center of the Universe: Oklahoma
Posts: 7,097
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 38,634.63
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by TacO5000
you must be cheyenne also ma-heench.....

ok you cheyenne guys... do you have a cheyenne gourd dance calling song? do you enough songs to sing a full afternoon of gourd dance with out using kiowa songs? I mean lemme know.....?
cheyenne warrior I am not tryna disrepect you or your grandpa... but, If he told you that the cheyenne can fly would you believe him????

just wondering.....
No one is disagreeing that 90% of Gourd Songs today are Kiowa!
The Point in this thread was 150 years ago the Cheyenne have a legend that spoke of a battle with Kiowa warriors and gourd songs were taken.
This is where the debate lies, Of course Kiowas are going to say we are no thieves!
But in Battle all tribes took trophies from their enemies are these trophies stolen??
I think not, for to the Victor comes the Spoils of war!
So with the Cheyenne legend of the Bowstring society in a battle with Kiowa warriors the lives,horses and songs were taken as spoils of war!
The legend does not say the Kiowas stole the songs it says that in a battle with the Kiowas they were taught the songs and then killed as warriors would be in battle!
So ended the Gourd Dance with the Cheyenne 150 years ago.

No one is disagreeing that the Kiowas brought back the Gourd Dance in the 1950's!!!

NO one is disagreeing that there are hardly any other songs except Kiowa songs.

But today Gourd Dance has spread again over the plains to other tribes as other dances are.
Also Gourd Dance has loose ties with NAC which has also spread amongst Plains tribes. I often wondered about this loose tie.
I mean one of the reasons we Gourd Dance is to bless the circle Before the Powwow.
The Shaking of the gourd would convey this, The simple dance, feet never leaving the earth the drum sending its beat down into the earth and back up through your feet would convey the power of the circle!
I also understand that the Kiowas used this dance before there Sun Dance long ago, so that also ties the blessing part.
So the point being, this dance was used before an event such as a sundance ect.
So it would be understandable that it would be used before a Powwow and not actually be a part of the Powwow as a catagory. Just as it was used long ago to prepare the ground.
As the Powwow has very strong ties and started in OKLAHOMA by southern tribes.

I read an article that the above legend was probably based on a battle between the Kiowas and Cheyenne around 1837.
And a few years later when the Cheyenne and Kiowas made peace the story was told of how the Bowstring society lost there lives.
Which explains how the story came out it was told by the Kiowas!
Then when the Cheyenne retold the story it was embelleshed as all oral history is.
These are stories and best story-tellers make them exciting when they tell them, would make for a dull story if not!

Last edited by Josiah; 11-05-2005 at 08:45 AM..
Josiah is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-05-2005, 02:22 PM   #32
USMC
 
Zotigh's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zotigh has a reputation beyond repute
Zotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond reputeZotigh has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 358
Credits: 1,588.46
Savings: 1.00
The Brush Dance prepares the arena, not the Gourd Dance.
__________________
Scott Zotigh
Kiowa Black Leggings
Kiowa Gourd Clan
Kiowa Tiah Piah
Kiowa Marine Veterans
American Indian Veterans

Zotigh is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-05-2005, 05:18 PM   #33
Powwow Dude
 
Josiah's Avatar
 
Items DevilUser Name Style ChangeUser Title Style Change
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Center of the Universe: Oklahoma
Posts: 7,097
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 38,634.63
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotigh
The Brush Dance prepares the arena, not the Gourd Dance.
I stand corrected
Josiah is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-07-2005, 10:52 AM   #34
PauWau Coordinator
 
WhoMe's Avatar
 
Items Devil
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
WhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond repute
WhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties
Posts: 7,150
Credits: 11,582.70
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Historian
... information appears on a Denver Art Museum website that talks about Gourd Dance as part of the "Cheyenne Visions II" exhibit.

The Gourd Dance
Mahao'oxenone-vohomo'ehestotse
. . . That is how the Kiowa stole the victory songs from the Cheyenne Bow Strings.

Taken from: http://www.denverartmuseum.org/cheye...ilverGourd.htm

Josiah,

Stand corrected again.....

Yes it DOES say the Kiowa stole songs.

This is a serious accusation made "Public Domain" in the Denver Art Museum.

Your assumptions are full of holes....

The gourd dance is NOT, a ground blessing dance for the powwow.

Many people read this forum to learn more about American Indian culture.

For anybody following this thread let it be known that the gourd dance is NOT a blessing of the circle for the powwow!



Where do you come up with this nonsense?


"Information that is learned in Georgia.... should STAY in Georgia!!!!!"
__________________
Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

Last edited by WhoMe; 11-07-2005 at 10:55 AM..
WhoMe is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-07-2005, 01:15 PM   #35
Powwow Dude
 
Josiah's Avatar
 
Items DevilUser Name Style ChangeUser Title Style Change
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Center of the Universe: Oklahoma
Posts: 7,097
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 38,634.63
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
Josiah,

Stand corrected again.....

Yes it DOES say the Kiowa stole songs.

This is a serious accusation made "Public Domain" in the Denver Art Museum.

Your assumptions are full of holes....

The gourd dance is NOT, a ground blessing dance for the powwow.

Many people read this forum to learn more about American Indian culture.

For anybody following this thread let it be known that the gourd dance is NOT a blessing of the circle for the powwow!



Where do you come up with this nonsense?


"Information that is learned in Georgia.... should STAY in Georgia!!!!!"
Sigh...
I only have only lived in Georgia this past year, and did not say nor imply I learned this in Georgia!
It was my opinion that this one of the reasons that we Gourd Dance before the Powwow and not actually part of the Powwow...
Again i was expressing my own opinion and do not claim to be an expert merely some one who loves this dance.
Was hoping that some of our Elders that have been in the Circle much longer would either add to or express there opinion.
I was corrected by Zotigh and this added to my knowledge.

Do you have a problem with the term "blessing"
Perhaps preparing or just a bunch of guys who love music
My point is, there is a reason why we gather before a Powwow.

Add to my knowledge so that I become wiser that is the proper way.
To try to ridicule by implying i have learned my knowledge in a less than desireable way. Well you insult the one that taught me he who is Cheyenne and yes it was in Oklahoma!

I have read the threads that have been posted here and learned much more than i did before...
No one person knows all there is to know about this
I have read much here and have a better understanding of why we dance.

So educate me Don't Try to Ridicule me
that is the proper way.

Josiah
Josiah is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-07-2005, 01:43 PM   #36
PauWau Coordinator
 
WhoMe's Avatar
 
Items Devil
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
WhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond repute
WhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties
Posts: 7,150
Credits: 11,582.70
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah


Do you have a problem with the term "blessing"
.....My point is, there is a reason why we gather before a Powwow.

Add to my knowledge so that I become wiser that is the proper way.
To try to ridicule by implying i have learned my knowledge in a less than desireable way. Well you insult the one that taught me he who is Cheyenne and yes it was in Oklahoma!

So educate me Don't Try to Ridicule me
that is the proper way.

Josiah

Josiah,

There is a time and place for everything.

Blessings, especially when done in context, should be held in private.

If you draw attention to yourself/group, invite the media, invite the public to watch, charge a monetary fee for a blessing or try to smudge someone without their invitation, this is NOT Indian.

I don't have a problem with the term blessing unless it is done to "show off."

---

You are ludicrous to say that I insult the one who taught you who is Cheyenne .... anymore than I have the right to say "YOU insult the entire Kiowa tribe!"

__

Back to your point....


What..... is the reason we gather before a powwow?

Pullllleeeeze Enlighten Us.
__________________
Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

Last edited by WhoMe; 11-07-2005 at 01:48 PM..
WhoMe is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-07-2005, 03:08 PM   #37
Powwow Dude
 
Josiah's Avatar
 
Items DevilUser Name Style ChangeUser Title Style Change
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Center of the Universe: Oklahoma
Posts: 7,097
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 38,634.63
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
Josiah,

There is a time and place for everything.

Blessings, especially when done in context, should be held in private.

If you draw attention to yourself/group, invite the media, invite the public to watch, charge a monetary fee for a blessing or try to smudge someone without their invitation, this is NOT Indian.

I don't have a problem with the term blessing unless it is done to "show off."

---

You are ludicrous to say that I insult the one who taught you who is Cheyenne .... anymore than I have the right to say "YOU insult the entire Kiowa tribe!"

__

Back to your point....


What..... is the reason we gather before a powwow?

Pullllleeeeze Enlighten Us.
So i am confused here
What was your point of this post
I already expressed my Opinion
and as you so eloquently put it
Keep my opinions in Georgia
So your asking me for my Opinion again???
Well i ain't putting my hand back in fire and get burned again

If you won't share your knowledge
so be it
Josiah is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-07-2005, 03:45 PM   #38
PauWau Coordinator
 
WhoMe's Avatar
 
Items Devil
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
WhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond repute
WhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties
Posts: 7,150
Credits: 11,582.70
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah
So i am confused here
What was your point of this post
I already expressed my Opinion
and as you so eloquently put it
Keep my opinions in Georgia
So your asking me for my Opinion again???
Well i ain't putting my hand back in fire and get burned again

If you won't share your knowledge
so be it

Josiah,

The point is...

You are posting inaccurate information (ie. "The legend does not say the Kiowas stole the songs..." and "I mean one of the reasons we Gourd Dance is to bless the circle Before the Powwow).


Yes, the legend in question DOES say the Kiowas STOLE the victory songs of the Cheyenne (read the website). There were no "spoils" about this. Kiowa singers take their songs very seriously.

An accusation has been made publically.

And

No, one of the reasons for gourd dance is NOT to bless the circle before the powwow! If anybody else has heard this, please post.

-----


Many people read powwows.com to learn. If you share your inaccuracies online and are not corrected...

"Some people will actually use your inaccurate information from this site - as gospel!"



Just because something is printed, doesn't necessarily mean it is true.
__________________
Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.
WhoMe is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-07-2005, 03:53 PM   #39
that's not my name
 
CandaePrincess's Avatar
 
Items PresentPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
CandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond repute
CandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond reputeCandaePrincess has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: where it's at
Posts: 11,950
Credits: 40,592.84
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
Josiah,

The point is...

You are posting inaccurate information (ie. "The legend does not say the Kiowas stole the songs..." and "I mean one of the reasons we Gourd Dance is to bless the circle Before the Powwow).


Yes, the legend in question DOES say the Kiowas STOLE the victory songs of the Cheyenne (read the website). There were no "spoils" about this. Kiowa singers take their songs very seriously.

An accusation has been made publically.

And

No, one of the reasons for gourd dance is NOT to bless the circle before the powwow! If anybody else has heard this, please post.

-----


Many people read powwows.com to learn. If you share your inaccuracies online and are not corrected...

"Some people will actually use your inaccurate information from this site - as gospel!"



Just because something is printed, doesn't necessarily mean it is true.
Who, I think it would be more accurate to say that 100% of information posted on here is totally inaccurate. If only for the fact that we weren't there. We have no idea where songs, dances, ceremonies, originated from except from the ideas/writings of white people about our culture. Stories are passed on from generation to generation, and are distorted everytime they are told. So to accuse anyone or, everyone on here for having inaccurate information is....well.....the only truthful thing on here.
__________________



Mussy by birth.....Native by the Grace of God.......


CandaePrincess is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-07-2005, 04:04 PM   #40
PauWau Coordinator
 
WhoMe's Avatar
 
Items Devil
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
WhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond repute
WhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond reputeWhoMe has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties
Posts: 7,150
Credits: 11,582.70
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by CandaePrincess
Who, I think it would be more accurate to say that 100% of information posted on here is totally inaccurate. If only for the fact that we weren't there. We have no idea where songs, dances, ceremonies, originated from except from the ideas/writings of white people about our culture. Stories are passed on from generation to generation, and are distorted everytime they are told. So to accuse anyone or, everyone on here for having inaccurate information is....well.....the only truthful thing on here.

Got's to disagree with you on this one Candae Cane.

For so long the written word of nonIndian historians and ethnologists has taken precidence over the oral histories of Indian people on the subject of cultural and traditional integrities.

The written word of these nonIndian historians and ethnologists is force fed to Indian college students who wish to pursue a degree in "Native American Studies degree programs."

I just had lunch with a tribal ceremonial leader and the issue of tribal integrities came into our conversation. He told me his elders gave the famous author Francis Densmore "inaccurate information" concerning tribal ceremonies, in order to keep ceremonial information only within tribal jurisdiction. Francis Densmore printed this information as "the gospel" for all researchers to learn from...

In this situation, who are you going to believe? The Indian who lives the culture or the author who wrote "his" interpretation of what the Indian does?

To agree with you would be admitting there is no value in Indian oral history and that it is 100% inaccurate.
__________________
Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

Last edited by WhoMe; 11-07-2005 at 05:31 PM..
WhoMe is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Gourd Dance knowledgeseeker Gourd Dance 22 08-05-2010 10:25 PM
Looking for seasoned Oklahoma (Mid-west) Southern Singers loves southern singn' Southern Singing 22 07-18-2005 01:08 PM
White Star Gourd dance travelingmocs Gourd Dance 37 01-31-2002 12:41 PM
Gourd Dance Gallery Paul G Gourd Dance 0 09-03-2001 11:17 AM
words to gourd dance starting song and translation Chicken Jerky Pow Wow Singing 10 12-09-2000 02:15 AM

    

Join the online community forum celebrating Native American Culture, Pow Wows, tribes, music, art, and history.

Join PowWows.com Today!

Your Guide to Native American Pow Wows Since 1996

Register For Free

Enjoy the benefits of being a member of PowWows.com!

Join our Native American online community focused on Pow Wow singing, dancing, crafts, Native American music, Native American videos, and more.

Add your Pow Wow to our Calendar

Share your photos and videos

Play games, enter contests, and much more!






New Threads

Pow Wow Calendar Search

 
Month: Year:

Location:
Facebook Profile Images

Videos

Featured Articles

Dance Styles

Crafts

Gallery