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Old 11-07-2005, 05:17 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
I just had lunch with a tribal leader and the issue of tribal integrities came into our conversation. He told me his elders gave the famous author Francis Densmore "inaccurate information" concerning tribal ceremonies, in order to keep ceremonial information only within tribal jurisdiction. Francis Densmore printed this information as "the gospel" for all researchers to learn from...

In this situation, who are you going to believe? The Indian who lives the culture or the author who wrote "his" interpretation of what the Indian does?
Setting aside the interpretive problem, which leads to its own host of accuracy issues (including everything as general as "worldview" to specific as language/translation), I have also heard of such intentional misdirection.

A Hopi friend of mine in college shared stories of his elders who apparently had a bunch of fun with anthropologists in the early 20th century. Serves them right.
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Old 11-07-2005, 05:34 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by WhoMe
Got's to disagree with you on this one Candae Cane.

For so long the written word of nonIndian historians and ethnologists has taken precidence over the oral histories of Indian people on the subject of cultural and traditional integrities.

The written word of these nonIndian historians and ethnologists is force fed to Indian college students who wish to pursue a degree in "Native American Studies degree programs."

I just had lunch with a tribal ceremonial leader and the issue of tribal integrities came into our conversation. He told me his elders gave the famous author Francis Densmore "inaccurate information" concerning tribal ceremonies, in order to keep ceremonial information only within tribal jurisdiction. Francis Densmore printed this information as "the gospel" for all researchers to learn from...

In this situation, who are you going to believe? The Indian who lives the culture or the author who wrote "his" interpretation of what the Indian does?

To agree with you would be admitting there is no value in Indian oral history and that it is 100% inaccurate.
I'm not saying there is no truth to oral storytelling or native cultures passed down. I'm saying that culture, tradition or stories are not always going to be 100 percent accurate. I've taken native classes and such and one thing that was always a downfall to native stories and the like was the basis that they DIDN'T write anything down. It's hard to preserve anything by word of mouth. I also don't care for the remark that I devalue oral history as if I don't know my own tribe's stories that were passed down from my family. I know the stories, but I also know they aren't completely the same as when they were first told.
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Old 11-07-2005, 05:56 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CandaePrincess
I'm not saying there is no truth to oral storytelling or native cultures passed down. I'm saying that culture, tradition or stories are not always going to be 100 percent accurate. I've taken native classes and such and one thing that was always a downfall to native stories and the like was the basis that they DIDN'T write anything down. It's hard to preserve anything by word of mouth. I also don't care for the remark that I devalue oral history as if I don't know my own tribe's stories that were passed down from my family. I know the stories, but I also know they aren't completely the same as when they were first told.

Candae Cane,

I agree with you that 'most' oral histories are not going to be 100% accurate... but they are not going to be 100% inaccurate either.

Off the top of my head I know that inside a Kiva and Eastern Longhouse.... oral history is passed on EXACTLY the same, word-for-word, verse-for-verse, passage-by-passage, as generations before them.

It is not important what other people think concerning specific tribal history. If grandparents pass down their culture through oral history, most listeners believe.

To say oral history is 100% inaccurate on the basis that this information changes as it passed from it's original source, just might offend someone. Is this a possiblity?

Yes. The Cheyenne have their beliefs about the gourd dance. And yes, the Kiowa have theirs.

But a blanket statement that they are all 100% inaccurate because they are "oral history" is, is...... well ....




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Old 11-07-2005, 06:07 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
Josiah,

The point is...

You are posting inaccurate information (ie. "The legend does not say the Kiowas stole the songs..." and "I mean one of the reasons we Gourd Dance is to bless the circle Before the Powwow).


Yes, the legend in question DOES say the Kiowas STOLE the victory songs of the Cheyenne (read the website). There were no "spoils" about this. Kiowa singers take their songs very seriously.

An accusation has been made publically.

And

No, one of the reasons for gourd dance is NOT to bless the circle before the powwow! If anybody else has heard this, please post.

-----


Many people read powwows.com to learn. If you share your inaccuracies online and are not corrected...

"Some people will actually use your inaccurate information from this site - as gospel!"



Just because something is printed, doesn't necessarily mean it is true.
Actually I was not quoting the website...
I was sharing what I had been told many years ago by a Cheyenne and by the way I already shared what i was told NOT that the songs were stolen So if you want to Qoute Some website go ahead...
It was not untill i saw this post on this website
That I even went back and read that one!!!
And even more improtantly I mentioned at the end of that post.
The Possible basis for the LEGEND in the first place


As for the "blessing" I admit poor choice of words but how to convey something that won't involk pictures of some hobbiest blessing the mother earth is hard...
But I was speculating on what the meaning the Higher meaning of the Gourd Dance
I know
I know
Same thing i was told long ago, it means something different for everyone
I Dance because i love the songs and while i dance i think of Nothing else but that moment.
But afterwards and after finding this Forum where I thought I could ask questions and get answers or opinions
Well once again I was wrong
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Old 11-07-2005, 06:12 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah
......I Dance because i love the songs and while i dance i think of Nothing else but that moment.

Josiah,

We do have common ground.

Even though I only gourd dance once a year, I also "dance because I love the songs and while I dance I think of nothing else but that moment."


These are powerful words!
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Old 11-07-2005, 06:34 PM   #46
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Don't believe everything you've read or been told... I have been told stories about gourd dancing and songs by different tribal elders and I have been told conflicting answers.... who is right I don't know.... what I am is sayin is don't believe everything you read or been told...

to quote who me in another tread ask 10 different people and get 10 different answers.

All I know is what I see and do in today times... yes I listen to my elders and the stories told to me. but like everything it changes
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Old 11-07-2005, 06:35 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
Josiah,

We do have common ground.

Even though I only gourd dance once a year, I also "dance because I love the songs and while I dance I think of nothing else but that moment."


These are powerful words!
Common ground is good!
I can work with that...
So we agree at least why we dance.

I guess I had the answer inside me the whole time!

Sometimes it takes a swift kick in the head (verbally speaking )
To realize that!!!
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Old 11-07-2005, 07:31 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah
I Dance because i love the songs and while i dance i think of Nothing else but that moment.
Good words.

That is a blessing we can all count.
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Old 11-07-2005, 07:52 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotigh
Good words.

That is a blessing we can all count.
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Old 11-08-2005, 10:23 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
Candae Cane,

I agree with you that 'most' oral histories are not going to be 100% accurate... but they are not going to be 100% inaccurate either.

To say oral history is 100% inaccurate on the basis that this information changes as it passed from it's original source, just might offend someone. Is this a possiblity?



But a blanket statement that they are all 100% inaccurate because they are "oral history" is, is...... well ....




not mussy.
(Being not "mussy" has nothing to do with it) I never said they were 100% inaccurate. I'm saying they are NOT 100% accurate. And if what I say does offend, so be it....come on Who, like I have a problem saying how I feel about an issue for fear of offending someone???? You're taking everything I've said as if I am questioning everything about being native. Yes we have our own identity. No I don't think it's the EXACT replica of how our ancestors lived BC (before Columbus). And you can not truthfully say "yes, this is the story or tradition as it was started with my tribe....you weren't there. We hold strong to what we have been told, and hope that by the time our great grand children are ready, the traditions and stories are still the same, but sometimes, they are change.

(Really simplified example.)Red riding hood was eaten in the first version, now adays she gets rescued by a woodsman. PC??? Maybe, but someone DID change the story.

That's all I'm saying anymore about this. Go on with your man ramble.
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Old 11-08-2005, 10:52 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CandaePrincess
...100% of information posted on here is totally inaccurate....Stories are passed on from generation to generation, and are distorted everytime they are told.

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Old 11-08-2005, 11:35 AM   #52
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This has been a good discussion overall, I thank those who have input good information into it, it best serves one such as myself that is trying to learn as much as possible. For me, I will not disrespect anyone who offers information from their traditions, it does a disservice to both me the listener and to the teller. When I gourd dance, I not only honor the fallen warriors from my tribe, but all tribes. I specifically honor my father who fell in service. I honor the songs and the drum and try to do things in the right way. It is good to know where things have come from, but it is just as important to do things correctly now to pass on to future generations, including knowing as much about the dance, where it came from, and why we do it.
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Old 11-08-2005, 06:13 PM   #53
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Cheyenne gourd Dance

Do the Kiowas not have a broader understanding about the Gourd Dance? Or just certain Kiowas?Go ask the Cheyennes first since that is the consensus.
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Old 11-08-2005, 06:25 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacO5000
you must be cheyenne also ma-heench.....

ok you cheyenne guys... do you have a cheyenne gourd dance calling song? do you enough songs to sing a full afternoon of gourd dance with out using kiowa songs? I mean lemme know.....?
cheyenne warrior I am not tryna disrepect you or your grandpa... but, If he told you that the cheyenne can fly would you believe him????

just wondering.....
EASE UP THERE BUDDY!
you can hate on me or cheyenne's or what ever makes you feel good.
I mean if you want to belittle me go right ahead but to bring my grandpa into this or belittle what was passed down to me is childish.
Look at your last question geez....it doesn't even merit an answer!
disrespect? who is dispespecting who here?
I was never disrespectful here all I did was pass along that my grandpa passed down the same story to me.

must be something to it then, since the whole hive here got all defensive and childish.
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Old 11-08-2005, 07:03 PM   #55
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Like I said!.....

Just go to the cheyennes and ask them ....they'll set you straight about all your questions and misunderstandings. You will feel better for doing it. You might even want to become one.... you know it baby ! You know you wish you were.....Get That ? if you didn't write it down! We can do as we wish by the way ....What are you gonna do about it?

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Old 11-08-2005, 07:24 PM   #56
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Remember?

Back in the day there were enemies ....Cheyenne and Kiowas
Navajos and Hopi's -Utes and Navajos-Crows and Cheyennes so just remember that of course your gonna get certain responses from certain people today who want to keep that animosity alive and well ....that is why the Creator scattered everyone....everytribe. Where are we going from here?
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Old 11-09-2005, 12:48 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltRiver Cheyennes
Just go to the cheyennes and ask them ....they'll set you straight about all your questions and misunderstandings.
I don't have questions or misunderstandings to ask the Cheyenne. My grandpa was one of those responsible for the revival of the dance.

I don't tell folks to go to Oklahoma. I don't tell folks to go talk to so-and-so.

Strong feelings are felt when talking about what our family passed on to us. I respect what you have been told by your grandparents. And, I hope you will continue to honour them as I will continue to honour mine.

I believe that the Gourd Dance is Kiowa. I believe that the story posted about us Kiowa stealing and murdering on that Denver Museum site is insulting to the Kiowa people.

I don't hide who I am behind some cyber-shield. I am Scott Zotigh. A Kiowa man. I simply say what I think.
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Old 11-09-2005, 04:33 AM   #58
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This was a very good thread to read. I am from the West Coast of British Columbia in Canada. I am from a tribe probably most of you have never heard of. I have been in this forum for over a year. Most of the time, I like to be funny and have a good time in here. This thread really struck me. Don't know if you care for my two cents but here goes. Our people live how we live, we don't profess to be anthropologists and our teachings have been the same for generations. Most people have never even heard of the teachings and ceremonies we have much less seen them. When individuals try to be "better" at being ndn then that is a sign of weakness in the culture. I believe all of you should be proud of your teachings and the culture your parents, grandparents and those before them passed on to you. I am not saying who is right or who is wrong, that is not my place to do so. I believe each has their points and that is where we should leave it. People who watch and read may begin to question why things are said in the manner in which they are said. Like I said at the beginning, I don't know very much so hopefully I have said something you may find beneficial.
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Old 11-09-2005, 07:34 PM   #59
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About 1955, as a special presentation at the American Indian Exposition in Anadarko, Oklahoma, the Kiowa director, Fred Tsoodle, gathered together the following men, Clyde Ahtape, Harry Hall Zotigh,Fred Botone, Oliver Tanedooah, and Abel Big Bow who were in Kiowa Gourd Dance dress and singers Bill Koomsa and William Tanedooah who knew and remembered the dance songs of the gourd dancers. This presentation brought back memories of the Kiowa cultural heritage and there were tears and some crying among the elder Kiowa spectators
My name is Kenneth Foreman I come from the Botone family, One my of relation was also was resposible for the revial of the gourd dance, as with all kiowas. we are all related in one way shape or form.... What was said in the Denver website is wrong. makes us kiowas sound like we are evil. you guys believe what you believe and I will believe what I believe to be the truth.
he is link to an article about the gourd dance.
http://www.gatheringofnations.com/ed...cles/kiowa.htm
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Old 11-09-2005, 09:40 PM   #60
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Before the fights with the Kiowas in the 1830s there were many cheyenne among the hevaitaneo that had kiowa blood. Black Kettle had kiowa blood. Maybe the wolf visited both during this time. Before the fights there were so many cheyenne hevaitaneo with kiowa blood that much of the year they just lived with the kiowa. Too much blood flows between the kiowa and cheyenne for this fight to continue.
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