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WhoMe 03-29-2004 04:17 PM

Gourd Dance Origins
 
So far, many Kiowas have given their reasoning for why they believe they began the gourd dance.

The Cheyenne-Arapaho, Comanche and Ponca also have claimed at one time or another that the gourd dance and/or songs are a part of their history. Any Comment?

Also there are many gourd dance organizations across the United States. Among them:

Golden State Gourd Dance Society (West Coast)
War Shield Gourd Dance Society (Southwest)
Gulf Coast Tia-Piah Society (Gulf Coast)
Lone Star Gourd Dance Society (Southern Plains)
Great Lakes Tia-Pia Society (Great Lakes)
White Star Gourd Dance Society (Midwest)

Tribal Gourd Societies/Clubs/Organizations are now officially organized among the: Osage, Cherokee, Navaho and Quapaw.

Anybody have any ideas on how these societies/gourd clans got started or sanctioned?

CHEROSAGE 03-30-2004 01:59 AM

I know that the Quapaw Intertribal Gourd Dance Society sent a delegation to Carnegie, OK to meet with Kiowa Society leaders. This took place in the mid 80's. Grandad, Jack Greenback, was our Elder. (He has since passed). Our society was given permission to organize as a society. (This is a VERY simplified version). Many of our original members have passed.

powwowbum49 03-30-2004 03:11 AM

I recently saw something that might be of interest to this discussion. I was photo's of old ledger drawings attributed to the Arikara and it showed clear what looked to be gourd dancing. These drawing wear dated as 1800s. I know the Kiowa claim the gourd dance going back to the early 1700s and that their original tribal lands put them in the Black hills area around that same time. So if these drawing are correctly cataloged...who was practicing and it originally and why are the Arikara no longer doing this dance?

Whome ... you ever heard anything on these folks doing this dance in the past?

WhoMe 03-30-2004 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powwowbum49
I recently saw something that might be of interest to this discussion. I was photo's of old ledger drawings attributed to the Arikara and it showed clear what looked to be gourd dancing. These drawing wear dated as 1800s. I know the Kiowa claim the gourd dance going back to the early 1700s and that their original tribal lands put them in the Black hills area around that same time. So if these drawing are correctly cataloged...who was practicing and it originally and why are the Arikara no longer doing this dance?

Whome ... you ever heard anything on these folks doing this dance in the past?

___

No there is no connection.

The Skidi band of Pawnee (Northern Pawnee), at one time, shared the same linguistics, songs, territory, earth lodges and even some ceremonies that are now no longer practiced, incommon with the Arikara.

Both tribes used the rattle in ceremony, as did many other tribes in North America.

One dance that the Skidi no longer do, uses rattles and the dancers line up in what resembles the modern "brush dance."

To my knowledge, the Arikara have never claimed the Gourd Dance as we know it today.

storm 03-30-2004 12:48 PM

Ed Red Eagle among others, was the real person behind the Osage Gourd dance society. His connections and friends among the Kiowa in NAC and his long life and association with dances in Oklahoma. He brought me into the Osage gourd dance almost 20 years ago. I first dance with my friends among the Comanche in 1972, but did not join a group. But I do not know the specific history of who and where and exactly when the Ossage organization began. I will ask my elders in the organization.

The Edge Water Kid 03-30-2004 01:01 PM

...gullible Navajos
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe
...Tribal Gourd Societies/Clubs/Organizations are now officially organized among the: Osage, Cherokee, Navaho and Quapaw.

Anybody have any ideas on how these societies/gourd clans got started or sanctioned?


Well.....Whome.

Supposedly, and you probably remember these people from when you were out here.

Art Cometsevah (Southern Cheyenne) purportedly gave permission to, I believe it's three Navajo individuals to go ahead and form a Gourd "Society" if you will.

Larry Anderson, prominent community member and Council Delegate in the Navajo Nation Tribal Council.

The late Theodore "Ted" Evans of Chinle, AZ....and multiple first place winner of the Golden Age Southern Straight Contest @ GON.

....and, I'm a bit iffy on this one, but, I'm fairly sure his names been thrown around quite a bit with this grouping.

Leonard Anthony of Shiprock, NM or thereabouts.

Larry organized the Black Creek Gourd Society, named for the creek that runs thru Larry's home community of Fort Defiance, AZ. It's membership has swelled to, I believe over 300 members. Gourd Dancing is VERY popular among the Navajo. They have their annual dance, once a year, Labor Day Weekend, usually in Fort Defiance, AZ.

Like I said, I don't know if the permissions to share this dance are admissible from an individual LIKE Art Cometsevah....but, then again, I don't really know the man.

As far as organization goes. They're very 'Navajo' in their approach to the whole thing...kind of like........."well, we'll let someone ELSE run it, we'll just show up and dance"

Like I said, it could be a REALLY good dance, and they could possibly start up a contest powwow once a year if they really organized and rallied behind one another. But, Navajo's are too independent in action and thought......selfish one might say......so, nothing gets done.

But, there's potential there if you ask me. It could be something of an event. Plus, I for one think people would relish the idea of a monthly gourd dance. For sure to raise funds for their Labor Day Weekend dance......possibly enough to haul in a REALLY GREAT GROUP of singers for their annual. ....plus it would help to offset the cost of food for the feed on both days.( Their dance is for two days.)

They did have some Kiowas come out one year, a large group of Southern Cheyenne's as well.....and a few Comanches. The year the Kiowa's came out, they pledged a beef to the Black Creek Gourd Society.....people have often wondered WHERE that beef went......course, that's all conjecture and useless gossip and fingerpointing now. ...anyway. Point is, early on, it had some respect. I don't know where it's at now.

Gourd Dancing is NOT something that is part of the Navajo tradition......and I'll emphasize that till the day I die. But, I think it novel and very generous of an individual or tribal group, that they would share something like this.......provided it was their right to do so.

I've often mentioned to some Black Creek Gourd members that they should go to a dance in Oklahoma.....and just watch, see the organization at work. Watch how the members support one another, not just at their annuals, but, at smaller dances when say, an individual is asked to be head gourd. You'll notice the outpouring of support, financially and physically. It's something to see.....and a good teacher if you ask me.
.
Plus, I think they need to maintain some ties to their parent group.........if one exists. If anything, it'll make for a stronger society as a whole.

......course, this is just my opinion on the whole situation out here in the West. Iím sure people take offense to some or a lot of the things the Navajo people do in general when it comes to things like powwow or Gourd Dancing. But, again, you have to go back to where they learned it from........Okies, either passing thru or married out here. So, while I think itís good that you DO correct us, and you really do need to.......itís your wayís not ours. I also think you need to slap some restraints on your own people so they donít come out here, .....taking advantage of gullible Navajos!! LMAO!!!

WhoMe 03-30-2004 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storm
Ed Red Eagle among others, was the real person behind the Osage Gourd dance society. His connections and friends among the Kiowa in NAC and his long life and association with dances in Oklahoma. He brought me into the Osage gourd dance almost 20 years ago.

___

Storm:

As usual, you have some good information. I will contact Harry and Johnny Red Eagle to find out more information. I have seen Johnny at the Kiowa Gourd Clan Ceremonials. From my observations, the Osage do the gourd dance in a very respectable way.

______

EdgeWaterK:

You also have some excellent information. I see where you have done your homework and have good resources. Do you have any idea when Wilsie Bitsy and Allen Neskai came into the picture? Both were instrumental in spreading the Gourd Dance to the Navaho Nation.

The Edge Water Kid 03-30-2004 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe
___

EdgeWaterK:

You also have some excellent information. I see where you have done your homework and have good resources. Do you have any idea when Wilsie Bitsy and Allen Neskai came into the picture? Both were instrumental in spreading the Gourd Dance to the Navaho Nation.

This is where it get's cloudy. Supposedly, they have their own deal going, or something to that effect.

I hear mention of an additional "society" started up by them or something to that effect, or they just supported it. The White Eagle Gourd Society. But, both men are now gone.....so, I would have to say that whatever was there, if anything.......probably died with them. Dennis Coan may have known something about it, but, he too went on to the hereafter.

I realize it's serious business with the Tribes in OK, who have this dance, and I can see how it is offensive to them to see it not being treated or cared for properly.

......Navajo's, for some strange reason, feel compelled to add aspects of the Native American Church into their Gourd Dances, or to add alot of ritualized action or made up stuff to Gourd Dancing. Which, I for one, don't agree with. Religous practices like those done in NAC belong outside IN their respective places, under the right conditions. They have no place in the arena if you ask me.....especially where you're doing things that are a bit controversial. I've seen jars of peyote being passed at the drum among certain singers, or among gourd dancers.......I for one don't think it belongs there, so, typically, I will get up and leave. I don't want to be associated or placed in a position where I'll be singled out or implicated if something should go wrong, and nor do I wish to be affiliated or in anyway connected with actions or people like that.

I feel these things have their place....and should be kept there, separate, ....never the twain shall meet!!

......of course, I'm still learning about Gourd Dancing, but, I question some activities my fellow tribal members perform. Like placing fans on drums when singers are singing during the Gourd Dance so as to fan someone off. Or this full on signal fire goin in an abalone shell.....some of these people start smudging like it's goin outta style!! Either that, or they'll haul out these HUGE 20ft long staffs to dance with, or they'll be dancing with deer antlers or some kind of stick with various articles attached to it.

Some out here have sought to incorporate some things from the Sun Dance, mostly because they sun dance. Granted, I'm somewhat familiar with the Sun Dance aspect or relationship the Gourd Dance had at one time.....in some tribes. But, I just don't see any point to incorporating those things in, especially when neither of those two things belong to the Tribal Group in question......Navajo.

What dances we do or did have, we're all ceremonial in nature....even our most social of dances has a ceremonial connection, with "rules" to follow. ....but, even that became commonplace and the ceremonial aspect was removed in the 1960s in Ganado, AZ by Benny Silversmith and one other guy who's name escapes me. They removed a dance from a ceremony we have and turned it into a contest style of dance, to the chagrin of the old people I'm sure!!

.....but, I do take issue with some of the stuff that goes on in Navajoland with regards to gourd dancing.

...some of it just ain't right.

storm 03-30-2004 02:43 PM

Peyote at the drum? This now beats anything I ever heard of at an eastern powow!!!!!
AS a Life long member of the NAC, This is nuts. They are asking for trouble..It is abuse.. outside the ritual...arrrghghg! :explode:
Do you know what would happen if this was to occur at HOme (meaning here in OK) Well at lest you understand it doesn't belong there.

WhoMe 03-30-2004 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE
I know that the Quapaw Intertribal Gourd Dance Society sent a delegation to Carnegie, OK to meet with Kiowa Society leaders. This took place in the mid 80's. Grandad, Jack Greenback, was our Elder. (He has since passed). Our society was given permission to organize as a society. (This is a VERY simplified version). Many of our original members have passed.

_____

CherO:

Do you have any information as to which Kiowa organization the Quapaw's went to? Was it the Gourd Clan or the Tia Piah Society. I was not aware the Kiowas sanctioned the Quapaw. But the Quapaw are good people.
____


Also, does anybody have any information about the regional gourd dance societies that I listed?

Miss_Kiowa 03-30-2004 04:08 PM

Everyone always says the only tribe the Kiowa Gourd Clan's given permission to use the dance is the Otoe-Missouria, if that helps any. I don't know who Kiowa Tia-piah or Okla. Tia-piah's given it to. :)

The Edge Water Kid 03-30-2004 04:12 PM

You can add this one to the list. I know nothing about the group, other than they typically serve as the color guard at events in Arizona.

The Arizona Territorial Gourd Society

....haven't a clue on who formed them or backed them, or on how many are in their ranks or where in Arizona they hail from. I've always been under the impression they're from Yuma or South of Phoenix or something.

WhoMe 03-30-2004 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss_Kiowa
Everyone always says the only tribe the Kiowa Gourd Clan's given permission to use the dance is the Otoe-Missouria, if that helps any. I don't know who Kiowa Tia-piah or Okla. Tia-piah's given it to. :)

Miss_K:

I agree about the Gourd Clan and the Otoe-Missouria. *gives high five.

It is rumored that the South of Carnegie bunch has sanctioned several organizations.

I heard the Cherokees learned the gourd dance from Kenneth Anquoe. Any Cherokees around to vouch for this?

WhoMe 03-30-2004 05:02 PM

Also . . .


Are there any Comanches, Cheyenne-Arapahos or Poncas in da' house, with a gourd dance origin story??????

Miss_Kiowa 03-30-2004 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe
South of Carnegie bunch

*Haha*

That's exactly what I've always called them too. I guess because I'm always up in Carnegie Park and never made it to Chieftain (even the year I was Kiowa Princess :Blush), I'm not all sure who's involved down there.

Besides the Kiowa origin, I've never heard any other than the Comanche. I'd be curious to know what others are too.

CHEROSAGE 04-01-2004 04:44 AM

Whome, I believe our elders went to the Tia Piah Society. However, I am not remembering well. I will ask some of the others to see if they do remember. I was supposed to go on one of the trips but my military commitment prohibited the trip for me.
I have been told that the Kiowas gave permission to the Osage nation to have the Gourd Dance. Such we have the Osage Gourd Clan.
I don't know how the Cherokees of OK got the Gourd Dance. I do remember when Kennet Anquoe and Jack used to sing alot at the dances in the east/ northeast OK area.

park 04-01-2004 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe
It is rumored that the South of Carnegie bunch has sanctioned several organizations.

The "South of Carnegie bunch" (and specifically the folks at Chieftain Park, as opposed to those farther south) have sanctioned at least three that I know of. Texas Kiowa Tia-Piah based in Crowley, Texas (south of Ft Worth); Gulf Coast Tia-Piah based in the Houston and southeast Texas areas; and Memphis Tia-Piah in Tennessee.

WhoMe 04-01-2004 11:57 AM

It is easy to get caught up in elements of the modern powwow and not have the faintest idea about the history, origin and evolution of the dances that we all so much enjoy.

I sincerely appreciate all those who have posted so far.

Again I am requesting information on gourd dance origin stories from the Cheyenne-Arapaho, Comanche and Ponca.

(C'mon, not having access to a computer is NOT an excuse!)

*L

j/k*

LWB 04-07-2004 02:29 AM

Cherokee Gourd
 
From what i was told , on July 4 1986 Charlie Soap & John Butler went to Carnegie,OK to the Kiowa Gourd Clan annual
& met with Taft Hainta & the other Headsmen, Jack Anquoe
acted as the go-between & spoke for them (Kenneth was suposted to do this but was unable to attend, John was not sure Jack would do this but Kenneth told him to" tell him I said do it") Jack went to the headsmen & talked then came back to Charlie & John asked some questions then went back to the headsmen ( John said this went on all afternoon) then at the nights dance Charlie & John were called forward ,their names & why they were there was announced , presents
were given for the right & then an honnor dance was given &
All were asked to "come & dance with our brothers from the east" . The dance was then taken back to Tahlequah & is still there today. Though it seems not to have the sprit today as it had in the begining.


PS: Now that Taft & many of the Headsmen & members have "gone on" the Kiowa Gourd Clan will not recognize
the Cherokee

The Edge Water Kid 04-07-2004 12:11 PM

What I heard....
The Cheyenne claim it as a dance belonging to their Bow String Society. The history that I got was that over a battle between the Cheyenne and Kiowa on Walnut Creek in the Tx Panhandle in 1840. The Cheyenne Bowstrings were camped there and the Kiowa discovered them dancing. Kiowas expressed peaceful intent and interest in learning the dance...Cheyennes taught them and then the Kiowa wiped out all the Bowstrings...40+ Cheyennes. Later, a lasting peace was established between the two tribes and they along with the Comanche and Arapaho became an effective barrier against anybody who tried to cross or live in their territory. The Bowstrings were re-organized and called Owl Man's BowString Society or later just the BowString's. Several of the songs the Kiowa use as GD songs are also used today as BowString Society songs. I guess the Bowstrings still dance today and Iíve heard they still have a few original songs that the Kiowa didn't steal.

Then I heard the Kiowa stole it from the Comanche war society called Little Horses and Big Horses, and that many of the songs were old Comanche Sun Dance songs...called Big Arbor songs, and that some of the songs were made by Post Oak Jim for individual Comanche families as brush dance songs

There's also several songs the Ponca use for Soldier Dance and Scalp Dance.

WhoMe 04-07-2004 12:21 PM

*Laugh


Keep the info coming. This is an open forum to express what you heard or what you were taught.

It's all interesting . . .

mountaindew 04-09-2004 06:19 AM

Gourd Dance Origins
 
Hello. I guess these things aren't foolproof after all. I'm having to use a relative's user name to respond to this inquiry.
For some reason the tools issued by this site won't let me in.
My address is [email protected] if anyone what to chew the fat regarding origins.---Wateredge Kid gave the most accurate account so far. Ah-ho.---The Lone Bear descendants also have an annual Tiah-piah-gaw celebration during Labor Day weekend called the Kiowa Warrior Descendants(KWD) Celebration. This began officially in 1974 and began on Lone Bear's original allotment 4 miles southeast of Carnegie. However, during the 19teens and 1920s this annual celebration has held at this same site on the 4th of July. I have a 1921 photo that shows the Kiowa Tiah-piah-gaw being performed by old Kiowa men on the Lone Bear's Old Dance Ground. Lone Bear stopped having this celebration on his allotment after his wife was killed during a tornado which destroyed his house and surrounding property in April of 1929. This was called "The Great Carnegie Storm of 1929". Today KWD can claim to have the only celebration on a traditional Kiowa dance ground.---Now to the historical aspect. In the Texas Panhandle during the summer of 1837 just after their sundance ceremony about 38 Cheyenne warriors called the Bowstring Society travelled south to raid the Kiowa on foot eventhough their Sacred Arrows weren't properly renewed. The Kiowa discovered their presence and a warparty lead by Sitting Bear met the Cheyenne who had constructed battlements to ward off Kiowa arrows. There was an engagement that lasted half the day but curiousity overcame the Kiowa and a temporary truce was called. The Bowstrings demonstrated how their society was run and sang their songs. However, both sides returned to the battle with the Kiowa eventually wiping out the Bowstrings. This happened on Sweetwater Creek south of Mobeetie, TX. When the Cheyenne finally learned the fate of the Bowstrings the following year they planned an all out offensive against the Kiowa. It was one of the seven times that the Cheyenne moved their Sacred Arrows against an enemy. The engagement on Wolf Creek near Fort Supply, OK during the summer of 1838 was the largest and greatest battle that every occured between two tribal forces. The battle started in the morning and raged all day long. Toward the late afternoon both sides probably wanted to sue for peace but didn't know how to go about it. Some say an Arapaho & Apache behind the scenes made arrangements. Another account says that Kiowa elders saw that too many of the bluebloods were being killed and came out of their tipis crying and shouting for the fighting to stop. In either case the fighting ceased with the Cheyenne withdrawing to the north. The Kiowa had invited the Osage to come to their sundance and two days later the Osage rode into the Kiowa encampment amidst the wailing for the dead. The 1838 Kiowa Sundance was called the "Wailing Sundance Summer". The Osage learned of the great battle and told the Kiowa to strike back at the Cheyenne and they would help destroy the Cheyenne but the Kiowa said, "No, they are gone. Let them go". Two years later on the Arkansas River in southeast Colorado several miles east of Old Bent's Fort the Kiowa, Comanche, and Apache made peace with the Cheyenne, Arapaho and Sioux. The Cheyenne gave the Kiowa rifles and the Kiowa gave the Cheyenne 2000 horses. There was an attempt to return the scalps of the Bowstring warriors but the Cheyenne refused them telling the Kiowa to bury them. THIS is when the Kiowa Tiah-piah-gaw was started. There is more but I may run out of space.---Yes, I know of the Red Wolf legend but I feel it was more of a spiritual vindication for the evolution of the Tia-piah-gaw and its integration with the Kiowa Sundance which was the only time that the Tia-piah-gaw was performed collectively.---Personally, I wrote about these accounts which appeared in the August 17, 1991 issue of the Anadarko Daily News. This article was called "Kiowa Tia-piah Society Origins", plus, on the same page is an article called "Red Wolf's Legacy to the Kiowa People".---Ah-ho for the opportunity to re-tell this story. I was getting kind of rusty.

WhoMe 04-09-2004 12:38 PM

Thanks Mountain Dew. I appreciate you sharing this account on pws.com. I know you are very knowledgeable of Kiowa Culture and History (We know each other *L) Huaco Tanks, TX?
_____

I met with the Kiowa Museum Commitee two months ago specifically concerning the origins of the gourd clan and the three other active warrior societies. Members of the Kiowa Gourd Clan and Kiowa Tia Piah Society of Carnegie sit on that committee.

From what they said, it is agreed that a Kiowa men's warrior society called the Tdienpaygah (Gourd Clan), began in the mid-1700's. "This is the time the story of the Red Wolf originated."

This occurred when the Kiowa were in transition from where they were during this time period - in and around the Black Hills of present day South Dakota.

The Cheyenne Bowstring connection occurred almost a century later.

Also I have a question,

In 1833, the Osage came to Kiowa country, killed and beheaded over 100 Kiowa women, children and old men at Cut Throat Gap.

In 1835, the Kiowa were invited to sign a treaty at Camp Holmes near the present Lexington, Oklahoma. This treaty was monumental because it included the former land owners - the Kiowa, Comanche and Wichita - and several tribes who were recently removed to Indian Territory - Osage, Quapaw, Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek and Seneca.

The Kiowa were the only one of these invited tribes that did not attend because the Osage were going to be there and "the Cut Throat gap incident was too fresh in their minds."

My point is, do you think the Kiowa leadership at that time(including the husbands and sons of those beheaded) would be taking advice from the Osage, just five years after the massacre? You as well as I know - the Kiowas have never forgotten this massacre even up to this day*

travelingmocs 04-11-2004 10:27 PM

This has been a really great discussion, and I thank everyone for being civial. Now I want to throw in my two cents. I think that many tribes like Kiowas, Comaches and so on, like the brush dance, had the gourd and was part of the different tribes sun-dance. I have also read about different "gourd" societys among the Kiowa, and the Tom-pe-go(Spelling) most stands out in memory.
But the key thing to remember is the Kiowas were the people who brought back the songs and made gourd dancing what it is today. Just my thoughts. Whome, you mentioned the Ponca tribe, I am not really sure if it was a part of there history or sun-dance. But I do know that some Kiowas came to White Eagle in the late sixties or early seventys from what I have read and brought the gourd dance to the Ponca. But that was also the main time period when gourd dancing was spreading like wild fire across Oklahoma. Poncas like other tribes made some gourd songs, I think Harry Buffalohead made a few too. No body really sings them anymore.
Well, hope that helps. I by no means am a expert and I thank all the other people for there great input. And Happy Easter to everyone....
TMS

park 04-11-2004 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travelingmocs
Poncas like other tribes made some gourd songs, I think Harry Buffalohead made a few too. No body really sings them anymore. TMS

There is at least one song that he made that everyone sings all over belonging to a certain family in SW Oklahoma. Purty song, indeed.

WhoMe 04-12-2004 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travelingmocs
Whome, you mentioned the Ponca tribe, I am not really sure if it was a part of there history or sun-dance. But I do know that some Kiowas came to White Eagle in the late sixties or early seventys from what I have read and brought the gourd dance to the Ponca. But that was also the main time period when gourd dancing was spreading like wild fire across Oklahoma. Poncas like other tribes made some gourd songs, I think Harry Buffalohead made a few too. No body really sings them anymore. TMS

___

travelingM:

The Poncas had a society, ceremonies and songs that support their traditional claims to the gourd dance. Unfortunately like the sundance, they are no longer practiced. A member on pws.com, PM'ed me to share that he knows about this gourd dance connection to the Ponca people and gave the name of this former ceremony.

I have never heard or read where the Kiowas travelled to White Eagle to give the gourd dance to the Ponca's. From what you read, were any Kiowa names mentioned?

I am aware that Ponca singers have composed gourd dance songs and they are sung both at the Ponca Powwow afternoon gourd dance and during their week of Winter Holiday Dances.

In an ironic twist, it has been rumored that the afternoon gourd dance at Ponca Powwow is a "closed drum, open only to Ponca Singers." True?

CEM 04-12-2004 01:47 PM

A Ponca/Quapaw woman told me a few years ago that "we had a gourd dance, but it wasn't like the gourd dance is now." She went on to say that she doesn't know any of the songs or what the dance was for.

CEM

storm 04-12-2004 02:53 PM

Who me:
are you talking Red medicine(bean) society at White eagle?

WhoMe 04-12-2004 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storm
Who me:
are you talking Red medicine(bean) society at White eagle?

___

Storm:

Well I wasn't going to name names of my pms *L

But yes, in answer to your question.

Zotigh 05-20-2004 03:30 PM

Note sure anyone is going to be able to determine which tribe originated the gourd dance, but without a doubt, its revival is historical record.

Quote:

The Revival of the Kiowa Gourd Dance

The present day Kiowa Gourd Clan celebration comes at the time of the Sun Dance and in the olden times was danced just before the 'Sun Dance' proper began. This organization, known and called by the Kiowas by its Kiowa name as 'Tdiepeigah', has a membership of approximately 300 select men, made up of civil servants, doctors, educators and even a Pulitzer prize winning author.
Preparations for the annual celebration begin in the Spring of each year with fund raising benefit dances and culminating with the colorful ceremonial and pageantry of the Fourth of July held in Carnegie, Oklahoma each year. Although this is a time of celebration of independence Day for the United States of America, it must be remembered that the Kiowas celebrated this annual affair long before there was a United States of America. The Kiowas held their 'Sun Dance' in the middle of Summer during the longest and hottest days of the year which comes around the Fourth of July. Since this is a holiday and most members work, this holiday was selected as the time to hold the annual Kiowa Gourd Clan celebration.

The history of the gourd dancers has been handed down by word of mouth; therefore, sequences may be reversed, relationship distorted, memories fade, but the Kiowa Gourd Clan tries to remain as traditional as possible.
The society of men was made up of camp police, hard riders and fighters, and selection for membership was made from aflluent respectable families.

Appointment for lifetime leadership was made by the wise elders, priests, and keepers of the sacred religion of the Kiowas. The leadership continues until voluntary retirement or death, and even for non performance of duties.

When the Sun Dances were banned by the Federal government, the society still continued having dances in the summers until the late 1930's, when it almost disappeared as far as the official recognition by the Kiowa tribe was concerned.

Some leadership names recalled are Red Teepee, his son, Satanta, Kiowa Bill Maunkee, Little Bow, Jack Bointy and his brothers who were sons of Red Teepee, Lone Bear, White Fox, Heap O' Bears and others.
About 1955, as a special presentation at the American Indian Exposition in Anadarko, Oklahoma, the Kiowa director, Fred Tsoodle, gathered together the following men, Clyde Ahtape, Harry Hall Zotigh, Fred Botone, Oliver Tanedooah, and Abel Big Bow who were in Kiowa Gourd Dance dress and singers Bill Koomsa and William Tanedooah who knew and remembered the dance songs of the gourd dancers. This presentation brought back memories of the Kiowa cultural heritage and there were tears and some crying among the elder Kiowa spectators.

This was the beginning flame of the revival of the gourd dancing. But it was almost two years before the Kiowa Gourd Dance Clan was formally organized on January 30, 1957 at the home of Taft Hainta.

The purpose and function of this organization was to perpetuate our Kiowa heritage and to revive the Kiowa dance from the past original ceremonies. At this time an English name was voted on and adopted as 'Kiowa Gourd Dance Clan' to be officially known throughout the entire Indian country. It was also decided to display early day trophies taken from the enemies during the various encounter. The army bugle was taken at one of the frontier forts, a lariat rope was taken from a Texas Ranger, and also eagle staff and lances owned by past members. These trophies are regarded as marks and symbols of bravery and courage of the Kiowa Tribe. Recently other trophies from members of the United States military have been allowed to be placed in the arena as symbols of acts of engagements with the enemy.

Present day officers are dedicated to their positions, to perpetuate traditions, ceremonial dances, songs and history of the Kiowa tribe. There are other gourd dance organizations that have branched off from the original clan and the dance itself has spread to other tribes over the continent, but only the Kiowas look upon with feelings of deep reverence for "This is our dance, our songs, our heritage, and a sacred part of our Kiowa culture!!!"

Reprinted from the Kiowa Gourd Clan - 1996. 2002 Kiowa Gourd Clan Membership: President- Glenn Hamilton, Vice President-Curtis Horse, Secretary-Gary Kodaseet.
As a side note; it seems that after the Kiowa Gourd Clan was established (modern day) that some of the members disagreement over the life term of leadership vs elected term leadership lead to the split we see today represented by the Kiowa Tiah Piah Society. My great-grandfather shows up on both member rolls. I do, too ;)

redberi 08-03-2004 11:10 PM

gourd dance
 
All the Kiowa elders and most of the Kiowas know how our Kiowa gourd dance, Tiahpahgah, derived. Other people from other tribes speculate and come to their conclusions but face it it's an original Kiowa dance.

You hear those songs and you get moved and you know why? Those are our prayer songs from different families and those songs have words. Most families know which is their family song and like my family has a chief song that we recognize. We also have our other family songs on my mother's side.

Any other tribe giving our dance and songs away is wrong. It's not theirs to give away and we never gave our dance but to only a couple of Oklahoma tribes to use. One is the Otoe-Missouri tribe.

About the Arikara in ancient dress dancing gourd dance, well research more and read up on your history. The Kiowa traded with sedentary tribes that grew crops.

Those gourd dance groups way out in left field are made up - copying us, sad to say. I guess they do not know their own cultural dances or songs and they are not Plains people.

GrayDog 09-15-2004 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE
I know that the Quapaw Intertribal Gourd Dance Society sent a delegation to Carnegie, OK to meet with Kiowa Society leaders. This took place in the mid 80's. Grandad, Jack Greenback, was our Elder. (He has since passed). Our society was given permission to organize as a society. (This is a VERY simplified version). Many of our original members have passed.


Say"Hey!".......I'm trying to find out some more good info on just who is authorized or allowed to gourd dance. I'm here in N. California and every Pow Wow starts out with Gourd. I see several variations and there is seldom agreement on who's doing it right. There are also several societies who claim the right to dance. The most legitimate one seems to be the "Black Wolf Society". I am Cherokee and gourd dance and am always respectful of the dance and it's importance. I dress my best and research as much as I can so as to be as correct as I can and honor those who originated it (Kiowa/Cheyanne). I spoke to Principle Chief "Chad" Smith of the Oklahoma Cherokee and he said that although Gourd isn't a traditional Cherokee dance that it was ok to do as long as it was done honorably. I'd appreciate any info out ther. Thanks...wado.

WhoMe 09-15-2004 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrayDog
Say"Hey!".......I'm trying to find out some more good info on just who is authorized or allowed to gourd dance. I'm here in N. California . . . I am Cherokee and gourd dance and am always respectful of the dance and it's importance. I dress my best and research as much as I can so as to be as correct as I can and honor those who originated it (Kiowa/Cheyanne). I spoke to Principle Chief "Chad" Smith of the Oklahoma Cherokee and he said that although Gourd isn't a traditional Cherokee dance that it was ok to do as long as it was done honorably. I'd appreciate any info out ther. Thanks...wado.

___

GrayDog,

I can see you are trying to do the right thing in order to gourd dance. So I am going to answer you logically.

I have heard it often said on powwows.com, "Go ask your elders." Sometimes this is sound advice, sometimes its not.

I have a lot of respect for your tribal leader. But,

Never ask your tribal elders for permission or "the right to" participate in another tribes dance. It would be more appropriate to ask an elder who is a member of a specific tribal gourd dance society for advice.

This has been discussed at length in other pws.com forums.

CHEROSAGE 09-16-2004 03:08 AM

Graydog:
Ask Chad about the history of the Cherokee Gourd Society. It has a long history and I believe certified by the Kiowa Gourd Clan. Ask for some of the Elder Cherokee Gourd dancers that were known as the Cherokee Tia Piah Society. I know that Clifford Sloan, passed a few years now, was a mamber of this group or at least danced with them.

I'm not a very good historian, just knew someone that knows someone that had known someone who said they knew someone.

69_Danny_69 10-24-2005 06:56 PM

I am not sure it is Gourd dance or not, but I know the Hopi have used Gourd Rattles a long time in a lot of their ceramonies and it looks simaliar to the gourd dance to me though the colors are different, not like my friend who was Tia Piah.

WhoMe 10-25-2005 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 69_Danny_69
I am not sure it is Gourd dance or not, but I know the Hopi have used Gourd Rattles a long time in a lot of their ceramonies and it looks simaliar to the gourd dance to me though the colors are different, not like my friend who was Tia Piah.

69D,

The Pueblo also gourd dance in long lines at their feasts.

Both Hopi and Pueblo ceremonial dancing don't have any relationship to southern plains gourd dancing.


*(however there are some Hopi and Pueblo men who do gourd dance both styles).

Elke 01-13-2007 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Edge Water Kid
What I heard....
The Cheyenne claim it as a dance belonging to their Bow String Society. The history that I got was that over a battle between the Cheyenne and Kiowa on Walnut Creek in the Tx Panhandle in 1840. The Cheyenne Bowstrings were camped there and the Kiowa discovered them dancing. Kiowas expressed peaceful intent and interest in learning the dance...Cheyennes taught them and then the Kiowa wiped out all the Bowstrings...40+ Cheyennes. Later, a lasting peace was established between the two tribes and they along with the Comanche and Arapaho became an effective barrier against anybody who tried to cross or live in their territory. The Bowstrings were re-organized and called Owl Man's BowString Society or later just the BowString's. Several of the songs the Kiowa use as GD songs are also used today as BowString Society songs. I guess the Bowstrings still dance today and Iíve heard they still have a few original songs that the Kiowa didn't steal.

Then I heard the Kiowa stole it from the Comanche war society called Little Horses and Big Horses, and that many of the songs were old Comanche Sun Dance songs...called Big Arbor songs, and that some of the songs were made by Post Oak Jim for individual Comanche families as brush dance songs

There's also several songs the Ponca use for Soldier Dance and Scalp Dance.


I found also something like this in www some time ago.

http://exhibits.denverartmuseum.org/...ilverGourd.htm

had to search for it again, but it was still there...

Reg. Elke

Josiah 01-13-2007 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elke
I found also something like this in www some time ago.

http://exhibits.denverartmuseum.org/...ilverGourd.htm

had to search for it again, but it was still there...

Reg. Elke

This website was discussed in a thread Named Cheyenne Origins of Gourd Dance which at times became very heated...
There are many stories about the origins of this Noble Dance
Depends on the Tribe that you ask ( Kiowa, Comanche or Cheyenne Araphaho)
If you want to see it for your self
Come to Carnegie or Cheiftain Park over the Fourth Of July
And you will see the Dance in its purest form
Otherwise it is just an words on a Website without a reference point

WhoMe 01-24-2007 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE (Post 452238)
Graydog:
Ask Chad about the history of the Cherokee Gourd Society. It has a long history and I believe certified by the Kiowa Gourd Clan. Ask for some of the Elder Cherokee Gourd dancers that were known as the Cherokee Tia Piah Society..

CHEROS,

I had a chance to speak with some of the Headsmen of the Kiowa Gourd Clan.

They indicated that their organization did not give this dance to anyone except the Otoe-Missouria tribes.

To the best of my knowledge the Cherokee (of Oklahoma) were encouraged to powwow and gourd dance by the late Kenneth Anquoe. Kenneth was a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan but to the best of my understanding .... he acted independently.

Josiah 01-24-2007 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe (Post 859551)
CHEROS,

I had a chance to speak with some of the Headsmen of the Kiowa Gourd Clan.

They indicated that their organization did not give this dance to anyone except the Otoe-Missouria tribes.

To the best of my knowledge the Cherokee (of Oklahoma) were encouraged to powwow and gourd dance by the late Kenneth Anquoe. Kenneth was a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan but to the best of my understanding .... he acted independently.

What about the Osage?
I thought they were the only ones as the story goes to have been given this dance
I know the story about the Cherokee Gourd Clan and had heard that it was up for debate

And the thing is this is the first time I have ever heard that the Otoe-Missouria were given this dance


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