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Old 04-07-2004, 12:21 PM   #21
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*Laugh


Keep the info coming. This is an open forum to express what you heard or what you were taught.

It's all interesting . . .
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Old 04-09-2004, 06:19 AM   #22
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Gourd Dance Origins

Hello. I guess these things aren't foolproof after all. I'm having to use a relative's user name to respond to this inquiry.
For some reason the tools issued by this site won't let me in.
My address is [email protected] if anyone what to chew the fat regarding origins.---Wateredge Kid gave the most accurate account so far. Ah-ho.---The Lone Bear descendants also have an annual Tiah-piah-gaw celebration during Labor Day weekend called the Kiowa Warrior Descendants(KWD) Celebration. This began officially in 1974 and began on Lone Bear's original allotment 4 miles southeast of Carnegie. However, during the 19teens and 1920s this annual celebration has held at this same site on the 4th of July. I have a 1921 photo that shows the Kiowa Tiah-piah-gaw being performed by old Kiowa men on the Lone Bear's Old Dance Ground. Lone Bear stopped having this celebration on his allotment after his wife was killed during a tornado which destroyed his house and surrounding property in April of 1929. This was called "The Great Carnegie Storm of 1929". Today KWD can claim to have the only celebration on a traditional Kiowa dance ground.---Now to the historical aspect. In the Texas Panhandle during the summer of 1837 just after their sundance ceremony about 38 Cheyenne warriors called the Bowstring Society travelled south to raid the Kiowa on foot eventhough their Sacred Arrows weren't properly renewed. The Kiowa discovered their presence and a warparty lead by Sitting Bear met the Cheyenne who had constructed battlements to ward off Kiowa arrows. There was an engagement that lasted half the day but curiousity overcame the Kiowa and a temporary truce was called. The Bowstrings demonstrated how their society was run and sang their songs. However, both sides returned to the battle with the Kiowa eventually wiping out the Bowstrings. This happened on Sweetwater Creek south of Mobeetie, TX. When the Cheyenne finally learned the fate of the Bowstrings the following year they planned an all out offensive against the Kiowa. It was one of the seven times that the Cheyenne moved their Sacred Arrows against an enemy. The engagement on Wolf Creek near Fort Supply, OK during the summer of 1838 was the largest and greatest battle that every occured between two tribal forces. The battle started in the morning and raged all day long. Toward the late afternoon both sides probably wanted to sue for peace but didn't know how to go about it. Some say an Arapaho & Apache behind the scenes made arrangements. Another account says that Kiowa elders saw that too many of the bluebloods were being killed and came out of their tipis crying and shouting for the fighting to stop. In either case the fighting ceased with the Cheyenne withdrawing to the north. The Kiowa had invited the Osage to come to their sundance and two days later the Osage rode into the Kiowa encampment amidst the wailing for the dead. The 1838 Kiowa Sundance was called the "Wailing Sundance Summer". The Osage learned of the great battle and told the Kiowa to strike back at the Cheyenne and they would help destroy the Cheyenne but the Kiowa said, "No, they are gone. Let them go". Two years later on the Arkansas River in southeast Colorado several miles east of Old Bent's Fort the Kiowa, Comanche, and Apache made peace with the Cheyenne, Arapaho and Sioux. The Cheyenne gave the Kiowa rifles and the Kiowa gave the Cheyenne 2000 horses. There was an attempt to return the scalps of the Bowstring warriors but the Cheyenne refused them telling the Kiowa to bury them. THIS is when the Kiowa Tiah-piah-gaw was started. There is more but I may run out of space.---Yes, I know of the Red Wolf legend but I feel it was more of a spiritual vindication for the evolution of the Tia-piah-gaw and its integration with the Kiowa Sundance which was the only time that the Tia-piah-gaw was performed collectively.---Personally, I wrote about these accounts which appeared in the August 17, 1991 issue of the Anadarko Daily News. This article was called "Kiowa Tia-piah Society Origins", plus, on the same page is an article called "Red Wolf's Legacy to the Kiowa People".---Ah-ho for the opportunity to re-tell this story. I was getting kind of rusty.
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Old 04-09-2004, 12:38 PM   #23
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Thanks Mountain Dew. I appreciate you sharing this account on pws.com. I know you are very knowledgeable of Kiowa Culture and History (We know each other *L) Huaco Tanks, TX?
_____

I met with the Kiowa Museum Commitee two months ago specifically concerning the origins of the gourd clan and the three other active warrior societies. Members of the Kiowa Gourd Clan and Kiowa Tia Piah Society of Carnegie sit on that committee.

From what they said, it is agreed that a Kiowa men's warrior society called the Tdienpaygah (Gourd Clan), began in the mid-1700's. "This is the time the story of the Red Wolf originated."

This occurred when the Kiowa were in transition from where they were during this time period - in and around the Black Hills of present day South Dakota.

The Cheyenne Bowstring connection occurred almost a century later.

Also I have a question,

In 1833, the Osage came to Kiowa country, killed and beheaded over 100 Kiowa women, children and old men at Cut Throat Gap.

In 1835, the Kiowa were invited to sign a treaty at Camp Holmes near the present Lexington, Oklahoma. This treaty was monumental because it included the former land owners - the Kiowa, Comanche and Wichita - and several tribes who were recently removed to Indian Territory - Osage, Quapaw, Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek and Seneca.

The Kiowa were the only one of these invited tribes that did not attend because the Osage were going to be there and "the Cut Throat gap incident was too fresh in their minds."

My point is, do you think the Kiowa leadership at that time(including the husbands and sons of those beheaded) would be taking advice from the Osage, just five years after the massacre? You as well as I know - the Kiowas have never forgotten this massacre even up to this day*
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Old 04-11-2004, 10:27 PM   #24
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This has been a really great discussion, and I thank everyone for being civial. Now I want to throw in my two cents. I think that many tribes like Kiowas, Comaches and so on, like the brush dance, had the gourd and was part of the different tribes sun-dance. I have also read about different "gourd" societys among the Kiowa, and the Tom-pe-go(Spelling) most stands out in memory.
But the key thing to remember is the Kiowas were the people who brought back the songs and made gourd dancing what it is today. Just my thoughts. Whome, you mentioned the Ponca tribe, I am not really sure if it was a part of there history or sun-dance. But I do know that some Kiowas came to White Eagle in the late sixties or early seventys from what I have read and brought the gourd dance to the Ponca. But that was also the main time period when gourd dancing was spreading like wild fire across Oklahoma. Poncas like other tribes made some gourd songs, I think Harry Buffalohead made a few too. No body really sings them anymore.
Well, hope that helps. I by no means am a expert and I thank all the other people for there great input. And Happy Easter to everyone....
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Old 04-11-2004, 11:26 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmocs
Poncas like other tribes made some gourd songs, I think Harry Buffalohead made a few too. No body really sings them anymore. TMS
There is at least one song that he made that everyone sings all over belonging to a certain family in SW Oklahoma. Purty song, indeed.
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Old 04-12-2004, 11:54 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmocs
Whome, you mentioned the Ponca tribe, I am not really sure if it was a part of there history or sun-dance. But I do know that some Kiowas came to White Eagle in the late sixties or early seventys from what I have read and brought the gourd dance to the Ponca. But that was also the main time period when gourd dancing was spreading like wild fire across Oklahoma. Poncas like other tribes made some gourd songs, I think Harry Buffalohead made a few too. No body really sings them anymore. TMS
___

travelingM:

The Poncas had a society, ceremonies and songs that support their traditional claims to the gourd dance. Unfortunately like the sundance, they are no longer practiced. A member on pws.com, PM'ed me to share that he knows about this gourd dance connection to the Ponca people and gave the name of this former ceremony.

I have never heard or read where the Kiowas travelled to White Eagle to give the gourd dance to the Ponca's. From what you read, were any Kiowa names mentioned?

I am aware that Ponca singers have composed gourd dance songs and they are sung both at the Ponca Powwow afternoon gourd dance and during their week of Winter Holiday Dances.

In an ironic twist, it has been rumored that the afternoon gourd dance at Ponca Powwow is a "closed drum, open only to Ponca Singers." True?
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Old 04-12-2004, 01:47 PM   #27
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A Ponca/Quapaw woman told me a few years ago that "we had a gourd dance, but it wasn't like the gourd dance is now." She went on to say that she doesn't know any of the songs or what the dance was for.

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Old 04-12-2004, 02:53 PM   #28
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Who me:
are you talking Red medicine(bean) society at White eagle?
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Old 04-12-2004, 06:01 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by storm
Who me:
are you talking Red medicine(bean) society at White eagle?
___

Storm:

Well I wasn't going to name names of my pms *L

But yes, in answer to your question.
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Old 05-20-2004, 03:30 PM   #30
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Note sure anyone is going to be able to determine which tribe originated the gourd dance, but without a doubt, its revival is historical record.

Quote:
The Revival of the Kiowa Gourd Dance

The present day Kiowa Gourd Clan celebration comes at the time of the Sun Dance and in the olden times was danced just before the 'Sun Dance' proper began. This organization, known and called by the Kiowas by its Kiowa name as 'Tdiepeigah', has a membership of approximately 300 select men, made up of civil servants, doctors, educators and even a Pulitzer prize winning author.
Preparations for the annual celebration begin in the Spring of each year with fund raising benefit dances and culminating with the colorful ceremonial and pageantry of the Fourth of July held in Carnegie, Oklahoma each year. Although this is a time of celebration of independence Day for the United States of America, it must be remembered that the Kiowas celebrated this annual affair long before there was a United States of America. The Kiowas held their 'Sun Dance' in the middle of Summer during the longest and hottest days of the year which comes around the Fourth of July. Since this is a holiday and most members work, this holiday was selected as the time to hold the annual Kiowa Gourd Clan celebration.

The history of the gourd dancers has been handed down by word of mouth; therefore, sequences may be reversed, relationship distorted, memories fade, but the Kiowa Gourd Clan tries to remain as traditional as possible.
The society of men was made up of camp police, hard riders and fighters, and selection for membership was made from aflluent respectable families.

Appointment for lifetime leadership was made by the wise elders, priests, and keepers of the sacred religion of the Kiowas. The leadership continues until voluntary retirement or death, and even for non performance of duties.

When the Sun Dances were banned by the Federal government, the society still continued having dances in the summers until the late 1930's, when it almost disappeared as far as the official recognition by the Kiowa tribe was concerned.

Some leadership names recalled are Red Teepee, his son, Satanta, Kiowa Bill Maunkee, Little Bow, Jack Bointy and his brothers who were sons of Red Teepee, Lone Bear, White Fox, Heap O' Bears and others.
About 1955, as a special presentation at the American Indian Exposition in Anadarko, Oklahoma, the Kiowa director, Fred Tsoodle, gathered together the following men, Clyde Ahtape, Harry Hall Zotigh, Fred Botone, Oliver Tanedooah, and Abel Big Bow who were in Kiowa Gourd Dance dress and singers Bill Koomsa and William Tanedooah who knew and remembered the dance songs of the gourd dancers. This presentation brought back memories of the Kiowa cultural heritage and there were tears and some crying among the elder Kiowa spectators.

This was the beginning flame of the revival of the gourd dancing. But it was almost two years before the Kiowa Gourd Dance Clan was formally organized on January 30, 1957 at the home of Taft Hainta.

The purpose and function of this organization was to perpetuate our Kiowa heritage and to revive the Kiowa dance from the past original ceremonies. At this time an English name was voted on and adopted as 'Kiowa Gourd Dance Clan' to be officially known throughout the entire Indian country. It was also decided to display early day trophies taken from the enemies during the various encounter. The army bugle was taken at one of the frontier forts, a lariat rope was taken from a Texas Ranger, and also eagle staff and lances owned by past members. These trophies are regarded as marks and symbols of bravery and courage of the Kiowa Tribe. Recently other trophies from members of the United States military have been allowed to be placed in the arena as symbols of acts of engagements with the enemy.

Present day officers are dedicated to their positions, to perpetuate traditions, ceremonial dances, songs and history of the Kiowa tribe. There are other gourd dance organizations that have branched off from the original clan and the dance itself has spread to other tribes over the continent, but only the Kiowas look upon with feelings of deep reverence for "This is our dance, our songs, our heritage, and a sacred part of our Kiowa culture!!!"

Reprinted from the Kiowa Gourd Clan - 1996. 2002 Kiowa Gourd Clan Membership: President- Glenn Hamilton, Vice President-Curtis Horse, Secretary-Gary Kodaseet.
As a side note; it seems that after the Kiowa Gourd Clan was established (modern day) that some of the members disagreement over the life term of leadership vs elected term leadership lead to the split we see today represented by the Kiowa Tiah Piah Society. My great-grandfather shows up on both member rolls. I do, too ;)
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Old 08-03-2004, 11:10 PM   #31
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gourd dance

All the Kiowa elders and most of the Kiowas know how our Kiowa gourd dance, Tiahpahgah, derived. Other people from other tribes speculate and come to their conclusions but face it it's an original Kiowa dance.

You hear those songs and you get moved and you know why? Those are our prayer songs from different families and those songs have words. Most families know which is their family song and like my family has a chief song that we recognize. We also have our other family songs on my mother's side.

Any other tribe giving our dance and songs away is wrong. It's not theirs to give away and we never gave our dance but to only a couple of Oklahoma tribes to use. One is the Otoe-Missouri tribe.

About the Arikara in ancient dress dancing gourd dance, well research more and read up on your history. The Kiowa traded with sedentary tribes that grew crops.

Those gourd dance groups way out in left field are made up - copying us, sad to say. I guess they do not know their own cultural dances or songs and they are not Plains people.
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Old 09-15-2004, 03:27 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE
I know that the Quapaw Intertribal Gourd Dance Society sent a delegation to Carnegie, OK to meet with Kiowa Society leaders. This took place in the mid 80's. Grandad, Jack Greenback, was our Elder. (He has since passed). Our society was given permission to organize as a society. (This is a VERY simplified version). Many of our original members have passed.

Say"Hey!".......I'm trying to find out some more good info on just who is authorized or allowed to gourd dance. I'm here in N. California and every Pow Wow starts out with Gourd. I see several variations and there is seldom agreement on who's doing it right. There are also several societies who claim the right to dance. The most legitimate one seems to be the "Black Wolf Society". I am Cherokee and gourd dance and am always respectful of the dance and it's importance. I dress my best and research as much as I can so as to be as correct as I can and honor those who originated it (Kiowa/Cheyanne). I spoke to Principle Chief "Chad" Smith of the Oklahoma Cherokee and he said that although Gourd isn't a traditional Cherokee dance that it was ok to do as long as it was done honorably. I'd appreciate any info out ther. Thanks...wado.
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Old 09-15-2004, 06:35 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayDog
Say"Hey!".......I'm trying to find out some more good info on just who is authorized or allowed to gourd dance. I'm here in N. California . . . I am Cherokee and gourd dance and am always respectful of the dance and it's importance. I dress my best and research as much as I can so as to be as correct as I can and honor those who originated it (Kiowa/Cheyanne). I spoke to Principle Chief "Chad" Smith of the Oklahoma Cherokee and he said that although Gourd isn't a traditional Cherokee dance that it was ok to do as long as it was done honorably. I'd appreciate any info out ther. Thanks...wado.
___

GrayDog,

I can see you are trying to do the right thing in order to gourd dance. So I am going to answer you logically.

I have heard it often said on powwows.com, "Go ask your elders." Sometimes this is sound advice, sometimes its not.

I have a lot of respect for your tribal leader. But,

Never ask your tribal elders for permission or "the right to" participate in another tribes dance. It would be more appropriate to ask an elder who is a member of a specific tribal gourd dance society for advice.

This has been discussed at length in other pws.com forums.
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Old 09-16-2004, 03:08 AM   #34
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Graydog:
Ask Chad about the history of the Cherokee Gourd Society. It has a long history and I believe certified by the Kiowa Gourd Clan. Ask for some of the Elder Cherokee Gourd dancers that were known as the Cherokee Tia Piah Society. I know that Clifford Sloan, passed a few years now, was a mamber of this group or at least danced with them.

I'm not a very good historian, just knew someone that knows someone that had known someone who said they knew someone.
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Old 10-24-2005, 06:56 PM   #35
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I am not sure it is Gourd dance or not, but I know the Hopi have used Gourd Rattles a long time in a lot of their ceramonies and it looks simaliar to the gourd dance to me though the colors are different, not like my friend who was Tia Piah.
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Old 10-25-2005, 05:28 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by 69_Danny_69
I am not sure it is Gourd dance or not, but I know the Hopi have used Gourd Rattles a long time in a lot of their ceramonies and it looks simaliar to the gourd dance to me though the colors are different, not like my friend who was Tia Piah.
69D,

The Pueblo also gourd dance in long lines at their feasts.

Both Hopi and Pueblo ceremonial dancing don't have any relationship to southern plains gourd dancing.


*(however there are some Hopi and Pueblo men who do gourd dance both styles).
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Old 01-13-2007, 11:45 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by The Edge Water Kid
What I heard....
The Cheyenne claim it as a dance belonging to their Bow String Society. The history that I got was that over a battle between the Cheyenne and Kiowa on Walnut Creek in the Tx Panhandle in 1840. The Cheyenne Bowstrings were camped there and the Kiowa discovered them dancing. Kiowas expressed peaceful intent and interest in learning the dance...Cheyennes taught them and then the Kiowa wiped out all the Bowstrings...40+ Cheyennes. Later, a lasting peace was established between the two tribes and they along with the Comanche and Arapaho became an effective barrier against anybody who tried to cross or live in their territory. The Bowstrings were re-organized and called Owl Man's BowString Society or later just the BowString's. Several of the songs the Kiowa use as GD songs are also used today as BowString Society songs. I guess the Bowstrings still dance today and Iíve heard they still have a few original songs that the Kiowa didn't steal.

Then I heard the Kiowa stole it from the Comanche war society called Little Horses and Big Horses, and that many of the songs were old Comanche Sun Dance songs...called Big Arbor songs, and that some of the songs were made by Post Oak Jim for individual Comanche families as brush dance songs

There's also several songs the Ponca use for Soldier Dance and Scalp Dance.

I found also something like this in www some time ago.

http://exhibits.denverartmuseum.org/...ilverGourd.htm

had to search for it again, but it was still there...

Reg. Elke

Last edited by Elke; 01-13-2007 at 11:49 AM..
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Old 01-13-2007, 03:00 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elke
I found also something like this in www some time ago.

http://exhibits.denverartmuseum.org/...ilverGourd.htm

had to search for it again, but it was still there...

Reg. Elke
This website was discussed in a thread Named Cheyenne Origins of Gourd Dance which at times became very heated...
There are many stories about the origins of this Noble Dance
Depends on the Tribe that you ask ( Kiowa, Comanche or Cheyenne Araphaho)
If you want to see it for your self
Come to Carnegie or Cheiftain Park over the Fourth Of July
And you will see the Dance in its purest form
Otherwise it is just an words on a Website without a reference point
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Old 01-24-2007, 12:05 PM   #39
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Graydog:
Ask Chad about the history of the Cherokee Gourd Society. It has a long history and I believe certified by the Kiowa Gourd Clan. Ask for some of the Elder Cherokee Gourd dancers that were known as the Cherokee Tia Piah Society..
CHEROS,

I had a chance to speak with some of the Headsmen of the Kiowa Gourd Clan.

They indicated that their organization did not give this dance to anyone except the Otoe-Missouria tribes.

To the best of my knowledge the Cherokee (of Oklahoma) were encouraged to powwow and gourd dance by the late Kenneth Anquoe. Kenneth was a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan but to the best of my understanding .... he acted independently.
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Old 01-24-2007, 12:13 PM   #40
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CHEROS,

I had a chance to speak with some of the Headsmen of the Kiowa Gourd Clan.

They indicated that their organization did not give this dance to anyone except the Otoe-Missouria tribes.

To the best of my knowledge the Cherokee (of Oklahoma) were encouraged to powwow and gourd dance by the late Kenneth Anquoe. Kenneth was a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan but to the best of my understanding .... he acted independently.
What about the Osage?
I thought they were the only ones as the story goes to have been given this dance
I know the story about the Cherokee Gourd Clan and had heard that it was up for debate

And the thing is this is the first time I have ever heard that the Otoe-Missouria were given this dance
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