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Old 02-28-2006, 02:15 PM   #1
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Gourd Dances outside of Gourd Dance Territory

A dance I'm attending this weekend in Tennessee will have gourd dancing and one I attended last month in North Carolina had a gourd dancing session. Now, the one in NC was sung by knowledgeable singers who've sung out in OK and know the protocols, and I'm not sure who's singing for Gourd Dance this weekend.

As the gourd dance continues to spread further and further away from Oklahoma, what are the "requirements" for lack of a better term for holding a gourd dance at a pow wow? I mean, do pow wow committees seek permission from the Kiowas to do this or just take it upon themselves to hold one? Is permission needed? And who has the "right" to head sing a gourd dance? Anybody with the knowledge or is special permission needed?

I'm not putting anyone down at all...I'm just curious. Thanks.
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Old 02-28-2006, 03:29 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singerdad
A dance I'm attending this weekend in Tennessee will have gourd dancing and one I attended last month in North Carolina had a gourd dancing session. Now, the one in NC was sung by knowledgeable singers who've sung out in OK and know the protocols, and I'm not sure who's singing for Gourd Dance this weekend.

As the gourd dance continues to spread further and further away from Oklahoma, what are the "requirements" for lack of a better term for holding a gourd dance at a pow wow? I mean, do pow wow committees seek permission from the Kiowas to do this or just take it upon themselves to hold one? Is permission needed? And who has the "right" to head sing a gourd dance? Anybody with the knowledge or is special permission needed?

I'm not putting anyone down at all...I'm just curious. Thanks.
NOW ADAYs it seems like everyone takes from everyone. LIke my father says the origional music that we have a re songs that were made for FAMILY yet we hear them out there all over the place. It is wrong to take a song and remake it, and to take a song and sing it for something unless you have the families permiossion. I have heard plenty of times singers use songs that werent they'res, but there is noway for us to stop it, they know it is wrong but they dont care, but what if we "kiowas" sang they're songs? yes it would be havic, and they would not like it, they should stop but they wont and that is a problem that the ndn's have now a days. wow!!! and we always wonder why the whites are getting away with everything!! Same thing~!!
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Old 02-28-2006, 03:52 PM   #3
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Michigan is basically Anishinaabe territory. There will be gourd dancing in Owwoso, Michigan at a powwow. I never went there, never will probly as I have been warned that this powwow is "sanctioned" by hobbyists. I too am interested how the gourd dancers of Oklahoma feel about this.

For the record, I personally think gourd dancing should be held only where it began.
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Old 02-28-2006, 04:10 PM   #4
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soo what would be the concensus on a kiowa (fully enrolled member) holding a gourd dance up in say ... canada? and he sang his late father's songs? and danced with other family members from the apache/lawton, ok area? just to teach his children of this part of his kiowa heritage?
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Old 02-28-2006, 04:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii
Michigan is basically Anishinaabe territory. There will be gourd dancing in Owwoso, Michigan at a powwow. I never went there, never will probly as I have been warned that this powwow is "sanctioned" by hobbyists. I too am interested how the gourd dancers of Oklahoma feel about this.

For the record, I personally think gourd dancing should be held only where it began.

Kiwehnzii,

Hobbyists indulge in "their hobby." To me a hobby is a game. If the rules are changed or something major is not quite right, it is simply a game.

Some hobbyists take their game seriously. Some don't and "play" without learning the rules, since it's just - a game.

In both cases, "it isn't an innate cultural trait."

Hobbyists' are not prone to just Indians as a hobby. They study and immerse themselves in Medieval cultures, Mountainmen, Wild Westerners, Civil War.... etc.etc ETC.

All I can say is when "hobbyists" gourd dance on their own....

My elders don't like it.
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Old 02-28-2006, 04:22 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
All I can say is when "hobbyists" gourd dance on their own....My elders don't like it.
Well, that makes perfect sense and something I've always sort of felt was the case. Ok, that being said, what about a pow wow that does have Indians there as well, but maybe they aren't Kiowa or maybe the singers aren't Kiowa? I guess what I'm looking for here is - is it ok to have gourd dances at pow wows outside of Oklahoma or outside of "Kiowa influence"?
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Old 02-28-2006, 04:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singerdad
Well, that makes perfect sense and something I've always sort of felt was the case. Ok, that being said, what about a pow wow that does have Indians there as well, but maybe they aren't Kiowa or maybe the singers aren't Kiowa? I guess what I'm looking for here is - is it ok to have gourd dances at pow wows outside of Oklahoma or outside of "Kiowa influence"?

SingerD,

I am not the one to say. I am not a headsman.


All I can say for sure is that "it hurts the very soul of many elders who witness many changes done outside of gourd dance territory."
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Old 02-28-2006, 04:55 PM   #8
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Unhappy From my perspective....

I am finding that more and more people are venturing out away from home. This includes all Native people. And I think sometimes they enjoy having a piece of home whenever they can get it. So, what happens when a group outside of Oklahoma, not Kiowa, is requested to sing Gourd? Where does the responsibility lie? Now, I'm not trying to point the finger here! Part of me think that the singer would hate to be rude and say "no" especially if he knows his stuff. But he's not Kiowa!

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

From what I've seen, as a southern style singer outside of Oklahoma and not being of lineage from Oklahoma, is that people are sometimes ridiculed if they don't know, or comes across as if they don't know, the "southern way" if they call themselves southern.



But what do they do?
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Old 02-28-2006, 05:07 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSS
... So, what happens when a group outside of Oklahoma, not Kiowa, is requested to sing Gourd? .....

LSS,

This is funny.

I know LSS would go ahead and sing?
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Old 02-28-2006, 05:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
LSS,

This is funny.

I know LSS would go ahead and sing?
B/C I love southern singing?

Or B/C of who I sing with?


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Old 02-28-2006, 05:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSS
B/C I love southern singing?

Or B/C of who I sing with?




LSS,

Neither.


How come you went ahead and sang?


(it's a loaded question. Your answer will be the answer to this post).
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Old 02-28-2006, 09:34 PM   #12
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one word......

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
LSS,

Neither.


How come you went ahead and sang?


(it's a loaded question. Your answer will be the answer to this post).

E X P E C T A T I O N S
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Old 03-01-2006, 10:16 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSS
E X P E C T A T I O N S
Expectations that to be a southern singer you have to sing Gourd Dance?

Granted, just about all southern plains tribes now gourd dance, but keep in mind this wasn't always true...heck, it probably wasn't even true just 50 years ago.

There are formal War Dance songs and intertribal pow wow songs, and I would think that your expectations would be based on your knowledge of those songs as opposed to gourd dance songs...am I wrong?

I'm a northern guy looking in at this so maybe I am totally wrong and maybe southern singers today are expected to know gourd songs? Is this true?
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Old 03-01-2006, 10:33 AM   #14
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Ojibwe inter-tribal singers are not required to know Midewiwin ceremonial songs. This too is the case of "big drum society" songs. There too is "rain dance" songs. In fact, it is frowned upon to sing "ceremonial" songs at a powwow. These are to be kept guarded. Very, very rarely are any ceremonial songs brought into public, if ever.

Please, don't ask me more about "those" songs.

Are gourd dance songs private?
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Old 03-01-2006, 11:48 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii
.....Are gourd dance songs private?

Many gourd dance songs belong to individuals, families and chiefs.

At many intertribal powwows, gourd dance songs are sung by singers who have no clue as to their ownership.

In Kiowa country, when a song is sung that belongs to someone or a family, it may cause family members to have to have an impromptu giveaway.

This often happens when someone who is not Kiowa sits in with Kiowa gourd dance singers.
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Old 03-01-2006, 12:33 PM   #16
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[QUOTE=WhoMe]
In Kiowa country, when a song is sung that belongs to someone or a family, it may cause family members to have to have an impromptu giveaway.

QUOTE]


Can I buy one from you? I'll give you half a million points. And I'll giveaway another half a mil.

Aye Jus kidding.
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Old 03-01-2006, 01:20 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singerdad
Expectations that to be a southern singer you have to sing Gourd Dance?

Granted, just about all southern plains tribes now gourd dance, but keep in mind this wasn't always true...heck, it probably wasn't even true just 50 years ago.

There are formal War Dance songs and intertribal pow wow songs, and I would think that your expectations would be based on your knowledge of those songs as opposed to gourd dance songs...am I wrong?

I'm a northern guy looking in at this so maybe I am totally wrong and maybe southern singers today are expected to know gourd songs? Is this true?
No, expectations from siners I travel with from time to time. And I'm not talking about my own group of guys; I bounce around a lot with different singers for the experience. This is where I learn the "southern way".
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When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given.

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Old 03-02-2006, 02:56 AM   #18
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Gentlemen, I may recommend that you go to a Kiowa singer and get permission to sing certain songs. I believe that some songs that were made for an individual or even a family have been placed on the drum to be enjoyed by many. Not all songs are for the public. Get some songs that are for the general public and learn them very, very well. Many a dancers such as myself are not singers BUT most can tell you if you sang it correctly. (Kiowas I mean). I don't place myself in this catagory since I speak no Kiowa. I'm sure some Kiowa singers do go East to sing as I was told of some Kiowas singing in the East. Joe Cozad told me one time when he went to Florida, I think. That was a long time ago. When I was at Ft. Sill OK I was injured for a while and was not able to dance. I was allowed to sit in and sing(try to sing). I never lead a song but I helped join in. Many of these song I new well enough to second.
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Old 03-03-2006, 12:40 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
In Kiowa country, when a song is sung that belongs to someone or a family, it may cause family members to have to have an impromptu giveaway.

This often happens when someone who is not Kiowa sits in with Kiowa gourd dance singers.

BEEN THER DONE THAT!!!! and its a real pain too when your not ready to do a give-away and everyone in the family is digging through their pockets and bags........waht a mess.......

I personaly can only think of about a dozen or so songs that havent been put on the drum, and most of those belong to societys, but it is still best manners to get permission to sing a family or individuals song, especially if they are present.( refering to songs that have been put on the drum, songs that are still private should NEVER be sung without the appropriate permission)
I am not a singer, but know enough of the older singers and have sat in on enough practises that I beleive I am correct on this.
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