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Old 10-15-2004, 01:31 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NDNTacO49
Hey Scott My familys camp is were you first drive in from the road down the hill.... can you guess my name??? I give you a clue it starts with K.....
I can't wait to find your camp, NDNTacO49. You're good folk.

Cya in July, bud.
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Old 10-16-2004, 11:01 PM   #82
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Koomsa's camp at the bottom to the left. Is that the "K"?
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Old 10-19-2004, 04:01 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSS
To my understanding, (and please anyone, if I'm incorrect, please help me out here) many of the tribes there in Oklahoma and in the surrounding areas that are noted for strong ties within our "southern culture" belong to the same language family.
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LSS:

You need do a litt-ttle more research *L

In the state of Oklahoma there are presently 39 tribes who have tribal headquarters. Collectively, they belong to the following language families:

Algonquian, Athapascan, Caddoan, Iroquoian, Muscogean, Modoc, Siouan, Tonkawan, Yuchi (Euchee) and Uto-Aztecan.

The Kiowa people who I have consulted, believe they are NOT associated with the Tanoan language, so I respect how they view their culture and their language - above the opinions of scholars and linguists.

The diversity of Oklahoma tribes is more diverse than any other state or province. In the state of Oklahoma there are three indigenous tribes. The rest of the tribes either migrated or were forced to what was then Indian Territory - from such diverse areas as what are now the states of:

California, Idaho, Arizona, Montana, Illinois, Michigan, New York, Delaware, North Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas, Nebraska and even Canada!

Each of these tribes brought with them, their own traditions and customs associated with their region of origin.
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Old 10-19-2004, 05:58 PM   #84
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It's true.....All of us don't know everything! Ignorance is only corrected by asking questions and researching.






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Originally Posted by miss tradish
don't get all defensive....stuff that people say on here does make me mad..but we can't help their ignorance.....what about my other question?...
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Old 10-19-2004, 10:53 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
__

LSS:

You need do a litt-ttle more research *L

In the state of Oklahoma there are presently 39 tribes who have tribal headquarters. Collectively, they belong to the following language families:

Algonquian, Athapascan, Caddoan, Iroquoian, Muscogean, Modoc, Siouan, Tonkawan, Yuchi (Euchee) and Uto-Aztecan.

The Kiowa people who I have consulted, believe they are NOT associated with the Tanoan language, so I respect how they view their culture and their language - above the opinions of scholars and linguists.

The diversity of Oklahoma tribes is more diverse than any other state or province. In the state of Oklahoma there are three indigenous tribes. The rest of the tribes either migrated or were forced to what was then Indian Territory - from such diverse areas as what are now the states of:

California, Idaho, Arizona, Montana, Illinois, Michigan, New York, Delaware, North Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas, Nebraska and even Canada!

Each of these tribes brought with them, their own traditions and customs associated with their region of origin.
WhoMe,

Thanks for correcting me like I asked :)....my elders...lol

Yeah...I had no idea so many DIFFERENT, and I stress different again, language groups there were....

See, thats why I've been wanting to make it out that way for some time....lol

LSS
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Old 10-20-2004, 03:36 AM   #86
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Gourd Dancing

I am a member of the Oklahoma Gourd Dance Society which was brought to us from the Kiowa tribe and we all ways try to honor the traditions that the Kiowa have. We wear long sleeved shirts, moccasins, sash, bandoleer of mescal beans, silver and some bone. We also wear a robe of red and blue with yellow trim. We place the ribbons that we have from service on the left side but most importantly we have a patch with the POW/MIA on the right side to honor those did not come home. If someone wears as hat into the circle or short sleeved shirt our AD will ask them to remove the hat or leave. I believe that to have honor you must honor the ones that have gone before.
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Old 10-20-2004, 03:27 PM   #87
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Who me. Ah-ho. You are correct. Kiowas do not consider our language Tanoan and they don't trust anthropologist. We are originally from the north. Our tradition & culture reflects our northern roots. I don't know where they got this Tanoan thang!
We get alot of flak because we protect what Kiowa tradition(s) we have left. Many people get insulted when they come to our dances and bring their pow-wow style. I've seen mc's ask people to remove their hats in respect to our dance,songs,drum or leave the arena and generally.........they leave the arena. What irks me the most is to go to pow-wows & hear gourd songs where they've taken out the words and then pound & drum so fast you feel like your in a chipmunk movie! People don't understand the meaning of the songs nor where they belong or how to really sing them. We have 3 warrior societies still in existance to day, they are ceremonial, Kiowa Black Leggings, Ohumah Lodge & Kiowa Gourd Clan and you have to be Kiowa to dance, sing & drum at these. Hobbiest come all the time but they aren't allowed to participate. So we get "talked" about all the time but our culture is still in existance because the tribe does protect these societies.

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Old 10-20-2004, 06:10 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsogoudle
Who me. Ah-ho. You are correct. Kiowas do not consider our language Tanoan and they don't trust anthropologist. We are originally from the north. Our tradition & culture reflects our northern roots. I don't know where they got this Tanoan thang!
We get alot of flak because we protect what Kiowa tradition(s) we have left. Many people get insulted when they come to our dances and bring their pow-wow style. I've seen mc's ask people to remove their hats in respect to our dance,songs,drum or leave the arena and generally.........they leave the arena. What irks me the most is to go to pow-wows & hear gourd songs where they've taken out the words and then pound & drum so fast you feel like your in a chipmunk movie! People don't understand the meaning of the songs nor where they belong or how to really sing them. We have 3 warrior societies still in existance to day, they are ceremonial, Kiowa Black Leggings, Ohumah Lodge & Kiowa Gourd Clan and you have to be Kiowa to dance, sing & drum at these. Hobbiest come all the time but they aren't allowed to participate. So we get "talked" about all the time but our culture is still in existance because the tribe does protect these societies.
A-HO!! Well Said

and I agree with the Gourd Dance singing (singing too fast)or they do a war-dance beat, It just don't sound right, or they don't throw in the howl at the end....

Some ppl...Just Mul-bane
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Old 10-20-2004, 06:11 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotigh
I can't wait to find your camp, NDNTacO49. You're good folk.

Cya in July, bud.
My first name begins with a K..... My Family are the Botones
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Old 10-26-2004, 01:17 PM   #90
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NdnTaco49,You must be a drummer/singer. It is good that young people like you learn, its the only way our traditions will live on. Like you, I was raised around Kiowa songs & dance, I never knew what "fancy shawl" and "jingle" was until I started going to pow-wows but in respect to the way I was raised have never danced any other way or dressed any other way but Kiowa because thats how I was raised. I do enjoy learning, watching and seeing other tribes dances & songs.
I think what some people cannot understand about gourd songs & dance is that traditional/ceremonial Kiowa Gourd have a history within our tribe, its not something we took from another tribe. The words in the songs are Kiowa, modern pow-wow versions have just taken out the words cause they couldn't say them. They were not pow-wow songs at one time in our culture, it belonged in our sun dance. Our sun dance was stopped by the government years ago because they feared the might of the Kiowa Tribe when it gathered. Our songs & dance were kept by Kiowas who refused reservation life. I am one of these descendants. Some have been revived while other societies were left and few elders today still know the words & songs of these societies.
I don't want to be argumentative but that story about the Cheyenne/Kiowa version, well, I disagree (as a Kiowa). The Kiowas did allie with the Cheyenne Tribe against invading forces. But both tribes have their own culture & traditions and have never accused each other of stealing anything from one another. Even if ya got that story from a book, it doesn't make it true. Anthropologist have written all kinds of stuff but that doesn't make it (true) history! Our own stories tell our history.
Back to the Gourd Dance its not a matter of who owns what, its a matter of tribal history & respect. And as you said about the "jingle dance" has been modernized those who take it upon themselves to dance that dance should at least know & respect what it is, why it is danced, etc and so it is with the Gourd Dance. I think thats all thats been said. Botones? From Dodge? Me too, my Kiowa name is T'so-goodle-hoawn-mayee (Redstone Woman). From guess where, Redstone!!!! (You have to be Kiowa to know these things!)
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Old 10-26-2004, 06:31 PM   #91
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsogoudle
NdnTaco49,You must be a drummer/singer. It is good that young people like you learn, its the only way our traditions will live on. Like you, I was raised around Kiowa songs & dance, I never knew what "fancy shawl" and "jingle" was until I started going to pow-wows but in respect to the way I was raised have never danced any other way or dressed any other way but Kiowa because thats how I was raised. I do enjoy learning, watching and seeing other tribes dances & songs.
I think what some people cannot understand about gourd songs & dance is that traditional/ceremonial Kiowa Gourd have a history within our tribe, its not something we took from another tribe. The words in the songs are Kiowa, modern pow-wow versions have just taken out the words cause they couldn't say them. They were not pow-wow songs at one time in our culture, it belonged in our sun dance. Our sun dance was stopped by the government years ago because they feared the might of the Kiowa Tribe when it gathered. Our songs & dance were kept by Kiowas who refused reservation life. I am one of these descendants. Some have been revived while other societies were left and few elders today still know the words & songs of these societies.
I don't want to be argumentative but that story about the Cheyenne/Kiowa version, well, I disagree (as a Kiowa). The Kiowas did allie with the Cheyenne Tribe against invading forces. But both tribes have their own culture & traditions and have never accused each other of stealing anything from one another. Even if ya got that story from a book, it doesn't make it true. Anthropologist have written all kinds of stuff but that doesn't make it (true) history! Our own stories tell our history.
Back to the Gourd Dance its not a matter of who owns what, its a matter of tribal history & respect. And as you said about the "jingle dance" has been modernized those who take it upon themselves to dance that dance should at least know & respect what it is, why it is danced, etc and so it is with the Gourd Dance. I think thats all thats been said. Botones? From Dodge? Me too, my Kiowa name is T'so-goodle-hoawn-mayee (Redstone Woman). From guess where, Redstone!!!! (You have to be Kiowa to know these things!)
My Gma lives in carniegie (down in frybread flats)(you have to be kiowa to know were thats at!)she is married to a kabin.....My Great Grandpa was Delos Botone.
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Old 10-28-2004, 12:54 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by NDNTacO49
My Gma lives in carniegie (down in frybread flats)(you have to be kiowa to know were thats at!)she is married to a kabin.....My Great Grandpa was Delos Botone.
___

"ZameThay"

Places that only Kiowas know about (from Car-nay-gee Dah):


4-Corners
Fry Bread Flats
Corn Bread's
The Park
Chieftan's
Greg's
Worm's
Chili's
Moon Light Mile
The Complex
Red Buffalo Hall
and of course "Ice Dock"

na-na-na-na




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Old 10-30-2004, 02:22 AM   #93
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___

"Ice Dock"

na-na-na-na




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Old 11-01-2004, 08:28 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
___

"ZameThay"

Places that only Kiowas know about (from Car-nay-gee Dah):


4-Corners
Fry Bread Flats
Corn Bread's
The Park
Chieftan's
Greg's
Worm's
Chili's
Moon Light Mile
The Complex
Red Buffalo Hall
and of course "Ice Dock"

na-na-na-na




*L
Don't forget the courts whome.....
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Old 11-23-2004, 03:11 PM   #95
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Interesting....

This has been a very interesting discussion. I am too from the Zotigh family. My father was a full blooded Kiowa and was a WWII Marine. He was raised during the time in which children were stolen from families and forced into Indian Schools. He often spoke about being taken from Grandma Bell and Grandpa Harry Hall. He spoke of the "belt lines" that the kids were subjected to when they spoke their language. He spoke of the formation of the Kiowa Gourd Clan and what happened over time. Something that I have noticed over time is that things are changing.
We went to Fouth of July in 1993. My wife was pregnant at the time. Now please understand, my dad was one of the elders at that time. He was instructed to remove his hat when he entered the arena. It seems that a new group had taken over that wanted a more "traditional" way. He did do as they asked however, he never returned to Carnegie. Now, one may wonder why I went off on this story. I did to make you realize that occasionally, in the name of tradition, people are not always treated in a good way.
We returned to Carnegie for the first time this past year. It was good. My boys danced there for the first time ever. So, I guess what I am trying to say with this is that just because one does not always go around "their people", that they are not aware of their traditions. Presents in body does not necessarily constitute a lack of presence of mind.
Finally, in reference to those that are not of the tribes that own dances (and regalia for that matter) be careful! I was brought up that if you are not of that tribe with those traditions, you do NOT have the right to dance the dance or wear the regalia. You must have permission to wear the clothes and dance the dance. The only people that can give you this right are specific heads of families as designated by the tribe. And, these rights must be paid for.

I am a proud member of the tribes to which I belong and long to preserve thos traditions for my generations to come.
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Old 12-04-2004, 07:31 PM   #96
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MrZinOKC

Thanks for that thoughtful post. I agree with you, that discretion and respect should be shown to our elders. I also think that we can miss out on the "bigger" picture, when we concentrate on the little things. I love being a member of the KGC and respect the things I have been taught. I am also learning alot about tolerance also. I do like the traditions, my family has instilled in me, and appreciate those for what they are. Thanks again for bringing your thoughts here.
Chris
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Old 12-04-2004, 11:34 PM   #97
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I suffered a heart attack two weeks ago, ...just catching up on the posts.

Glad to see my cousin posting his thoughts.

I hope that those who read the posts here learn a little of what our Kiowa Gourd customs are, and that they show their respect of the dance by representing their knowledge in good faith.
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Old 12-05-2004, 12:41 AM   #98
a.k.a Numunu1971
 
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Glad you o.k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotigh
I suffered a heart attack two weeks ago, ...just catching up on the posts.

Glad to see my cousin posting his thoughts.

I hope that those who read the posts here learn a little of what our Kiowa Gourd customs are, and that they show their respect of the dance by representing their knowledge in good faith.
Zotigh,
I am glad to hear your o.k. I was wondering where you'd been. Take care of that ticker friend.
Chris
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Old 12-05-2004, 03:53 AM   #99
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I too want to say welcome back. Take care of yourself, we still need your input. By the way, I'll keep you in my thoughts.
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Old 12-05-2004, 07:14 PM   #100
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Glad to see your back.. hope your doing better and all is well..
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