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Old 07-10-2003, 04:21 PM   #21
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I have travelled to dances from California to Florida. Different states and regions bring gourd dancers into the arena differently. The Kiowa, Comanche, Cheyenne-Arapaho and Ponca have gourd dancing as a part of their history. Each tribe has given their version of this dance to different gourd dance organizations.

The Kiowa Gourd Clan has only formally given this dance to the Otoe tribe. Thus many Otoes come to the Kiowa Gourd Clan to acknowledge and foster this relationship.

Each year, several men are inducted into the Kiowa Gourd Clan. They each have a sponsor and a special song is sung for the inductees. Afterward their new status is paid for with the giving of gifts.

Then the fun part begins>>>>

They get to sell raffle tickets in the HOT sun - regardless of if they are a veteran, doctor, lawyer etc. :D
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Old 07-10-2003, 07:56 PM   #22
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Thanks, WhoMe, for shedding some light on the Gourd Dancing customs and traditions around the country. I appreciate your knowledge of this subject.
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Old 11-09-2003, 05:08 AM   #23
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Gourd Dance

I'm reading the posts on this subject and do not see any Kiowas posting, so as a Kiowa I will respond. My son is a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan.

The Kiowa Gourd dance is not taken lightly and it is the real thing and there is a story of how it began. The dance is our original dance and the songs are family songs. There are Kiowa words to the songs. Only the Missouri-Otoe and Osage have permission from the Kiowa Tribe to use our dance. Non-Kiowas are not allowed into our arena during our celebration held annually.

If there are others out there using our dance and songs without permission then they are wrong. We, Kiowas, know this. The hobbyists using are dance and songs are wrong. They make a mockery of our dance. We had societies that were made up of different bands and we have protocols and there is a process for membership by enrolled tribal members.
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Old 11-10-2003, 11:54 AM   #24
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jcurley17,
I lived on the Navajo Rez for 4 years,and I gourd danced all the time...go to your local dances...I danced from crown point to tuba..the chapter houses has small dances on occassion...I know St. Micheals has..go to these dances and talk to the gourd dancers..you might find out you have a relative already dancing,who can bring you in.I will say at 17,you will get alot of help from the older dancers..they will explain the right and wrong way to dance..because its important that our youth learn the ways...so they can pass it on to another generation..
If you have questions..please feel free to ask....never be afraid to ask about something you are not sure about...you will find out others will give you respect,because you are learning things in the right way..
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Old 11-10-2003, 01:38 PM   #25
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Gourd Dance

I don't know who gave the Navajo permission to use our gourd dance. I never heard of anyone giving them permission.

You say you're from Texas, so what kind of native are you? There are a few Kiowas in the Dallas area. What is the name of your organization?

This is for the Tx gourd dancer.

Kiowa
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Old 11-10-2003, 05:34 PM   #26
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Texas Kiowa Tia Piah....I dance at Chieftain Park and camp behind Hess Bointy....need I say more?
I understand how you feel......alot of people are taking the gourd dance and twisting it and trying to make it their own.....it has to be done one way and thats the proper way...the way the Red Wolf gave it to the Kiowa people...but you must also remeber...the Kiowa People have given this dance to others to enjoy also...both Kiowa Gourd Clan,and Kiowa Tia Piah has shared this dance with other tribes...they taught them how to do it right...its the ones who try to make the dance their own..that bothers you..as well as myself..
as for what kind of native am I?...I am Mohawk...but out of respect of the Kiowa family that has taken me in as their own...I follow Kiowa ways..Bointy Family way to be more specific...but then....this matter is between me and my family....
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Old 11-10-2003, 07:32 PM   #27
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Gourd Dancers

Yes, Hess Bointy and his family sells-out to white people from Texas. If you're Mohawk then why are you copying Kiowas? You're probably not even Mohawk.

You probably cannot dance in the arena among the real Kiowa gourd dancers at the Carnegie park. Everyone knows out south they cater to white people. What a joke!

You're camping behind that man who sells out doesn't make you a Kiowa.

Plus, I don't recall anyone asking my family or others for permission to let "others" use our songs and dance. You don't have permission to use my ancestor's song that's for sure.

Last edited by monie; 11-10-2003 at 07:47 PM..
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Old 11-10-2003, 07:41 PM   #28
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gourd dance

Tell me, you from Texas, is this your website?



http://www.tiapiah.com/pages/1/index.htm

I did see one or 2 Kiowas on that site, but the rest are Comanches and a Wichita man.

The rest are wannabes.

Whomever you are, you have no business even mentioning the name "RedWolf".

Last edited by monie; 11-11-2003 at 11:28 PM..
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Old 11-12-2003, 02:21 PM   #29
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Cherosage, I've heard of the Quapaw Gourd Dancers but...this is a club not a society! Now..this group is made up of mostly white people. Some of these guys claim to be "Nothern Cherokee" or "Osage' or some other tribe but......can they back this up with a C.D.I.B. ? Most have a tribal enrollment card of some kind. Puleeze!!! These can be printed up at any print shop but a C.D.I.B is a lot harder to get.
So..before advice is given by anyone make sure they know what they're talking about. This is Kiowa!! My sisters gourd dance but only on the outside. I saw my grandmother just stand up from where she was sitting and dance and this was outside the benches!! People need to learn their own traditions first.

Last edited by Teh Hunga; 08-13-2004 at 03:48 PM..
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Old 11-12-2003, 07:58 PM   #30
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Ah ho

Finally, someone who knows something.

Thank you.
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Old 02-24-2004, 12:19 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by CHEROSAGE
It's true that different Tribes have their own ways of Veterans organizations but most generally we all have about the same ideas. I don't know of any Tribe that allows the ladies to dance on line with the men. Most all do have a ladies organization, or at least a way that the ladies can be honored as well.

I believe that the Comanches have the War Mothers. I know that my Society the Quapaw Intertribal Gourd Society has an Auxilary for our ladies to be able to dance.
Hi there...I was just browsing the board and came across this...I just wanted to say that I believe the Comanches have the "Comanche Little Ponies" and the Kiowas have the "Kiowa War Mothers"...My grandmother who was Clara Rose Palmer Neconie" was a "Kiowa War Mother" and another one of my grandmothers was "Margaret Kaulaity" also a "Kiowa War Mother " and the "Kiowa War Mothers" do exist today and "Mable Cozad" is also one of them...theres not very many left today but the "Kiowa War Mothers" are still around. I grew up in Anadarko and also been to lots and lots of Pow-Wows there. Not trying to be mean or anything but just wanted to let you know what I know about the "Kiowa War Mothers" and what I was told as I was growing up and also listening to my elders.
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Old 02-24-2004, 02:08 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by tricia72
Hi there...I was just browsing the board and came across this...I just wanted to say that I believe the Comanches have the "Comanche Little Ponies" and the Kiowas have the "Kiowa War Mothers"...My grandmother who was Clara Rose Palmer Neconie" was a "Kiowa War Mother" and another one of my grandmothers was "Margaret Kaulaity" also a "Kiowa War Mother " and the "Kiowa War Mothers" do exist today and "Mable Cozad" is also one of them...theres not very many left today but the "Kiowa War Mothers" are still around. I grew up in Anadarko and also been to lots and lots of Pow-Wows there. Not trying to be mean or anything but just wanted to let you know what I know about the "Kiowa War Mothers" and what I was told as I was growing up and also listening to my elders.
Yeah, there are still lots of War Mothers. I think the Comanches might have a War Mothers chapter and I know the Otoes do.

It's important to remember that the War Mothers groups are chapters of the American War Mothers, an organization affiliated with the VA. (Their website is http://www.appc1.va.gov/vso/index.cf...port&Org_ID=29 ) and they aren't really a gourd dance auxiliary. They're a completely separate organization, and you don't have to be a member to have permission to gourd dance if you're a female. :)

And someone way back was up in the air about the dates of the Kiowa Gourd Clan annual. It's July 2-4 in Carnegie Park every year, no matter what days of the week.
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Old 02-24-2004, 02:33 PM   #33
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about 20 years ago I was invited to join the Osage gourd clan.
I was told they recieved this from the KIowa. There was a discussion about the name that they should not really call it a clan, but a society, but most still call it a clan as they say it was properly given to the Osage. I do not know as I was not there at the original dance and most of those that were have gone on. Those originals did invite me in and explianed these thing to me.
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Old 02-24-2004, 02:48 PM   #34
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Ahem.....This is str8 to the point, I dont know how many of these gourd dance threads I have read. The Gourd dance is Kiowa, how it got to other areas I have no clue. Maybe they shouldnt have ever put them on tape if the dance is so sacrid. Kinda like peyote meetings, once done by a few, now done by EVERYONE. Sure we can tell everyone that kiowas did this and did that, but they dont care. Just relize the fact, those TX thievols wont come to kiowa country and dance.....no matter how much they think they belong...believe me...they know!!!


and Comanches are keen
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Old 02-24-2004, 04:27 PM   #35
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Old 02-24-2004, 04:31 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by SBZ4life
Ahem.....This is str8 to the point, I dont know how many of these gourd dance threads I have read. The Gourd dance is Kiowa, how it got to other areas I have no clue. Maybe they shouldnt have ever put them on tape if the dance is so sacrid. Kinda like peyote meetings, once done by a few, now done by EVERYONE. Sure we can tell everyone that kiowas did this and did that, but they dont care. Just relize the fact, those TX thievols wont come to kiowa country and dance.....no matter how much they think they belong...believe me...they know!!!


and Comanches are keen
Just a note. For 30 years I have attended and partaken of the holy medicine, and my folks before me....It IS for everyone..
That door is never shut to those who are looking...
And you dont get a fireplace and be roadman from listening to a bunch of tapes :Mad
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Old 02-24-2004, 05:09 PM   #37
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Smile

Quote:
Originally posted by Miss_Kiowa
Yeah, there are still lots of War Mothers. I think the Comanches might have a War Mothers chapter and I know the Otoes do.

It's important to remember that the War Mothers groups are chapters of the American War Mothers, an organization affiliated with the VA. (Their website is http://www.appc1.va.gov/vso/index.cf...port&Org_ID=29 ) and they aren't really a gourd dance auxiliary. They're a completely separate organization, and you don't have to be a member to have permission to gourd dance if you're a female. :)

And someone way back was up in the air about the dates of the Kiowa Gourd Clan annual. It's July 2-4 in Carnegie Park every year, no matter what days of the week.
I wanted to say thank you for posting the website...
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Old 02-24-2004, 06:42 PM   #38
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No prob. :)

It's not extremely informative, but it's about all there is about the organization.
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Old 02-25-2004, 01:54 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by storm
Just a note. For 30 years I have attended and partaken of the holy medicine, and my folks before me....It IS for everyone..
That door is never shut to those who are looking...
And you dont get a fireplace and be roadman from listening to a bunch of tapes :Mad

hey Im glad that you go to meetings, Im talking about gourd dance songs and gourd dance tapes.....
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Old 03-01-2004, 06:26 PM   #40
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Re: Gourd Dance

Quote:
Originally posted by monie
I'm reading the posts on this subject and do not see any Kiowas posting, so as a Kiowa I will respond. My son is a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan.

The Kiowa Gourd dance is not taken lightly and it is the real thing and there is a story of how it began. The dance is our original dance and the songs are family songs. There are Kiowa words to the songs. Only the Missouri-Otoe and Osage have permission from the Kiowa Tribe to use our dance. Non-Kiowas are not allowed into our arena during our celebration held annually.

If there are others out there using our dance and songs without permission then they are wrong. We, Kiowas, know this. The hobbyists using are dance and songs are wrong. They make a mockery of our dance. We had societies that were made up of different bands and we have protocols and there is a process for membership by enrolled tribal members.
If you feel that way then why don't you tell these so-called sell-outs that they shouldn't be granting permission for non-Kiowas? I mean no disrespect or try to ruffle any one's feathers, but I'm just wondering why in the hell it got out of hand anyway? I am aware of those wannabe people in the Gulf Coast area. Why were they granted permission? Why are there so many non-Kiowa granted membership in the Kiowa Tiapiah Society?
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