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Old 03-16-2004, 01:32 PM   #41
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I just stumbled on this thread. Good reading and good arguments.
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Old 03-18-2004, 08:23 AM   #42
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I can understand how some Kiowa people must feel about this. I feel sort of the same way about our Jingle Dress. It must first be worn only upon having a dream. Nowadays, everyone and their gramma dreams about it. We have societies as well, and protocol to follow. Wannabe white women who wear our dress. Sheesh man.....seems as though nothing is sacred anymore.

Anyway, I'm only saying I understand how you feel about your dance too. Man, I just could not take it upon myself to just do other dances that belong to certain people. :|
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:22 PM   #43
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Gourd Dancing

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Originally Posted by ojibwaysweetie
I can understand how some Kiowa people must feel about this. I feel sort of the same way about our Jingle Dress. It must first be worn only upon having a dream. Nowadays, everyone and their gramma dreams about it. We have societies as well, and protocol to follow. Wannabe white women who wear our dress. Sheesh man.....seems as though nothing is sacred anymore.

Anyway, I'm only saying I understand how you feel about your dance too. Man, I just could not take it upon myself to just do other dances that belong to certain people. :|
I am full-blood Kiowa and have been Gourd Dancing for over 30 years. I've been reading the posts and am amused at all the comments. I also applaud the desires of wanting to learn about the Kiowa Gourd Dance. In my 30+ years of Gourd Dancing, I believe I have only missed 2 Kiowa Tribal Celebrations in Carnegie, Oklahoma and this celebration is held every year on July 2-4. We Kiowa's call this a celebration and not a Pow Wow, it's the time of year where ALL Kiowa's come together and celebrate our heritage with the Kiowa Gourd Clan. It's a traditional dance that has been handed down from long ago. When your in Carnegie during this period, and your Kiowa, you hear Kiowa Gourd Family Songs, sung in Kiowa, the Kiowa Flag Song, sung in Kiowa, prayers that are said in Kiowa, people talking Kiowa at all the camps and relatives saying in Kiowa that it's good to see you. This is truly a Kiowa Celebration with traditions that are good. They usually begin the day with the Kiowa Flag Song then after that the Brush Dance is held in the morning and then they have all the little children do the Rabbit Dance (this is fun to see). Usually a family of one of the Rabbit Dancers feeds all the little ones. Then around 2 in the afternoon, the Gourd Dance begins then there's a break for supper around 6 pm then it is restarted up again with the Gourd Dance with social dancing following.

There are traditions that are followed and they are, men wear long-sleeve shirts - no hats are allowed, with the traditional Kiowa Gourd Dance regalia, red and blue blanket with a yellow ribbon down the middle along with a fan, sash and beads. This is truly a men's organization with the honor of the Kiowa Princess present. In the evening, there's usually a prosessional with the Chief, who is presently Glenn Hamilton, and before him was Taft Hainty (hope I spelled this right) followed by the Kiowa Princess then the rest of the Kiowa Gourd Clan then followed that by all the Kiowa Tribal Organizations. This is a awesome sight, to see all these Kiowa Indians dancing together in a circle with no outside influence of governments or societies. This is truely the Kiowa Way.

Now regarding other Gourd Dance Organizations, The Kiowa Thi-Pah Society, The Kiowa Gourd Dance Society, the The Comanche Gourd Clan, and many many more, all these organizations are not part of the Kiowa Gourd Clan's original and traditional celebration that's held in Carnegie, Oklahoma once a year. These men's organizations are only imitations of the real thing, but in the same token, they are respected and well received with the Kiowa Gourd Clan.

All my comments are from me being a Kiowa Gourd Clan Member and a full-blood Kiowa - in no way am I an official representative of either.

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Old 04-03-2004, 01:13 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by jcurley17
so do i just ask any gorud dancer??
I am a female vet, I would like to ask about the females? What is their protocal? I heard you have to be introduced by initiation. Some of those guys from Cozad know alot, ask them if they are in your neck of the woods. They usually attend all the powwows in Southern Cal.
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Old 04-05-2004, 06:46 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chindi_Slayer
I am a female vet, I would like to ask about the females? What is their protocal? I heard you have to be introduced by initiation. Some of those guys from Cozad know alot, ask them if they are in your neck of the woods. They usually attend all the powwows in Southern Cal.
Women do not have an initiation because they are not a part of the gourd clan. All they are allowed to do is dance on the edges. The only exception to dancing right on the edge of the circle would be in the case of honoring someone. Any woman can dance behind the men during the gourd dance as long as they do it respectfully and keep in mind it is actually a man's dance. :)
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Old 04-06-2004, 06:51 PM   #46
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I'm sure if you asked the Cozads about female vets. becoming gourd dancers they will tell you the same thing that all these other Kiowas are saying on this tread...... NO WOMEN... like miss kiowa said this is a Man's Dance...You don't have to be a Veteran to gourd dance....... :Argue don't come to oklahoma with that assumption that just because you've been to war and fought, that gives you the right to gourd dance thats not the case....1. you have to be a man 2. only kiowas are aloud to dance and sing at the four celebration...A-Ho for you time....
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Old 04-09-2004, 01:04 AM   #47
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GarySatoe, I want to thank you for your observations. I do appreciate this friendly and yet very knowledgable information.

I have been to Carnegie, I was allowed to dance with the Kiowas though I am NOT Kiowa. I was simply a guest and maintained that image, not trying to pretend otherwise. This has been many years now, and have only memories that I miss greatly. I was stationed at Ft. Sill OK at the time. Thank you for reminding me of these things. I also can still see the faces of my friends and many true Gentlemen. The eats were of the best in town.
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Old 08-21-2007, 02:38 AM   #48
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Gourd Dance Initiations

Again, let me inform you of this dance and protocols,this dance belongs to the Kiowa (Kauee-goo) through the blessing of God to Red Wolf (Gkuee-goodle-they) the songs and dance came to him through first a vision and then dream and reality by performing to his people with the proper feast that goes with this dance. Which, I don't think the Kiowa's nowadays do this protocol but maybe some do like our family does and always will until the Lord comes to retrieve us. But I think this individual wants to learn how to conduct oneself by entering the arena as a gourd dancer. I see alot of threads about gourd dance and some are true to a certain aspect and then some are just ridiculous. First of all sponsorship is one thing you'll have to seek out and that means you'll have to come to Kiowa country and talk to one of headsmen of the Kiowa Gourd Clan. No other way but the Kiowa way of doing this and yes it may cost you some expense but if your real about this and this is the proper way of doin this. This dance is a Kiowa dance and permission is given only by Kiowa.
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:18 PM   #49
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Again, let me inform you of this dance and protocols,this dance belongs to the Kiowa (Kauee-goo) through the blessing of God to Red Wolf (Gkuee-goodle-they) the songs and dance came to him through first a vision and then dream and reality by performing to his people with the proper feast that goes with this dance. Which, I don't think the Kiowa's nowadays do this protocol but maybe some do like our family does and always will until the Lord comes to retrieve us. But I think this individual wants to learn how to conduct oneself by entering the arena as a gourd dancer. I see alot of threads about gourd dance and some are true to a certain aspect and then some are just ridiculous. First of all sponsorship is one thing you'll have to seek out and that means you'll have to come to Kiowa country and talk to one of headsmen of the Kiowa Gourd Clan. No other way but the Kiowa way of doing this and yes it may cost you some expense but if your real about this and this is the proper way of doin this. This dance is a Kiowa dance and permission is given only by Kiowa.
I agree with what you are saying, but might add that the Kiowa Tia-Piah also Gourd Dance South of Carnegie and would also be a Society a person could talk with.
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Old 08-23-2007, 03:53 AM   #50
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I agree with what you are saying, but might add that the Kiowa Tia-Piah also Gourd Dance South of Carnegie and would also be a Society a person could talk with.
I'm glad your interested in helping this individual, but I'm saying is this, as a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan this individual needs proper guidance in seeking his sponsorship and be not confused about who's the authority in entering the Gourd dance arena. But you have say it was in Carnegie where it all got revived and brought back into existence back in 1956. Hah-bay-tah, hawn-yah-hi-gah, naw-ee, kauee-tahlee, thdy-pbay-goon-gah, a-awn, gui-goodle-they-dah, may-naw, hawt-so, kauee-goo, pbay-thau-haudle, kee-pau-kyah, tsau-lay-kee, saut-gyah-dah, thau-mau-baw, Ah-hoe, gah-say-law, Oh-bau-hah,
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Old 08-23-2007, 12:40 PM   #51
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In 1956, older Kiowa speaking people were here. I'm a Kiowa man who knew of it's reviving, at that year Kiowa speaking was good. Today, i t's all white man speaking of our Kiowa language. They don't know what they're trying to say. Also, I do not understand the name Kiowa Gourd Clan when Kiowas do not have clans only societies. I belong to the Elk Society and I do know Society Sundance Song.
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Old 08-28-2007, 05:45 AM   #52
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In 1956, older Kiowa speaking people were here. I'm a Kiowa man who knew of it's reviving, at that year Kiowa speaking was good. Today, i t's all white man speaking of our Kiowa language. They don't know what they're trying to say. Also, I do not understand the name Kiowa Gourd Clan when Kiowas do not have clans only societies. I belong to the Elk Society and I do know Society Sundance Song.
Sole haw, well spoken and that's right there isn't a name for Kiowa Gourd Clan in our language but Tdiah-pbay-goo, and i too know sundance songs, ton-kon-gaut, sain-tdine-dah, native american church, awl-daw-goon, and just about every song in the tribe, and i'm from the Kinep and Ree band of Kiowas, but who's keeping track? And your right as well there are taw-koys that try to speak our language as well and don't even know what their talking about. Haw-so-law!
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Old 08-29-2007, 02:07 AM   #53
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Koy't-tsen-kaw

Kaw-eh-t'sen-kaw-eh bah.. it's hard to try to make the right sounds.

Not me. No one today has that honour. Who today could measure up to that?

But, our grand-pappy was the leader of that society.

The rest of us are just the kaw-awn. hehe
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Old 08-29-2007, 02:43 AM   #54
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Yep...there was no, "Kiowa Gourd Clan" before the late 1950's.

It's just the name our leaders of the revival society have given to our Kiowa gourd society today.

Like many Kiowas today, my grandparends were the sons and daughters of the folks that last saw the 'real' Gourd Dance.

None of us, really, meausre up. I know.

The old ones past are beyond us. Many of us try simply to honour the lessons they tried to pass into our thick skulls. I know I wish and wish I had been more mature and listened to Mr. Koomsa, Mr. Two Hatchet, Mr. Palmer, Mr. Satepauhoodle, Mr. Tsatoke, Mr. Cozad, Mr. Bointy, Mr. Kaulaity, Mr. Tsoodle, Mr. Onco, Mr. Amounkomo, Mr. Tongheama, Mr. Redbird, Mr. Spottedbird, Mr. Tsotigh, Mr. Whitehorse, Mr. Emhoolah, Mr. Preciado, Mr. Ahhaity, Mr. Aitson, Mr. Horse, Mr. Kaulity, Mr. Tsoodle, Mr. Guimisaddle, Mr. Poolah, Mr. Toppah, Mr. Yeahquo, Mr. Anquoe....oh, so many others, too many not listened to. I wasted such opportunity in my youth when those folks were alive to talk to many or our now departed Kiowa elders.

That is the thing that cannot be undone. The one thing none of us can 'go back and do over'.

How many folks are alive today that we are going to not talk to and learn from?

I wish I had been smarter back then.

I hope I'm smarter today. But, I doubt it.
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Old 09-07-2007, 04:20 AM   #55
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In 1956, older Kiowa speaking people were here. I'm a Kiowa man who knew of it's reviving, at that year Kiowa speaking was good. Today, i t's all white man speaking of our Kiowa language. They don't know what they're trying to say. Also, I do not understand the name Kiowa Gourd Clan when Kiowas do not have clans only societies. I belong to the Elk Society and I do know Society Sundance Song.
Interesting. So are you talking about younger Kiowas who are speaking Kiowa but use it as if they were speaking English. I just had an interesting discussion on this subject earlier today actually. Or are you talking about white people trying to speak Kiowa... or both. I think I know what you mean. could someone elaborate on this?
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