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Old 08-27-2001, 05:41 PM   #21
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Quite awhile back. I would say over 15 years.
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Old 08-27-2001, 06:01 PM   #22
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I hit a home run in the 4th Grade.

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Old 08-29-2001, 11:06 AM   #23
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Pow-wower:
I don't understand why southern people think that the Gourd Dance originated with the Kiowa. That of course is a posiblity but every Plains tribe had the Gourd Dance.

Every warrior society danced in this Gourd style.
It was the HeYuska (Dakota Spelling)(Ponca/ Omaha)style of dancing in which the porcupine headdress (Roach / Wapesa)and bustles (Kangih^a)which evolved into the pow-wow we have today.
Read the anthropolical papers that talk about these warrior societies. Remember the early researchers were not interested in songs and dance styles. Just how the society functioned.
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Old 08-29-2001, 12:49 PM   #24
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to beth i know henry made a memorial song but not a PRAYER song.
and to garcia what do bustles and roaches have to do with the topic at hand?
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Old 08-29-2001, 04:28 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Louis Garcia:
[QB]Pow-wower:
I don't understand why southern people think that the Gourd Dance originated with the Kiowa. That of course is a posiblity but every Plains tribe had the Gourd Dance.
I respectfully disagree. I don't understand why northern (and some southern)people think that all forms of dancing originated with the Omaha dance. The gourd dance does not have, and never had, anything to do with the roach and bustle (i.e. the Heluska and its various manifestations and spellings). Obviously, the O-ho-mah relates to that, but not the tai-pe-go.

I don't think every Plains tribe had a gourd dance. I think it could be said most (if not all) Plains tribes had warrior societies, but I don't know enough of other Plains tribes, much less speak for them.
For example, many Ponca I know admit they just picked gourd dancing up over the years and don't have a historical basis for it.

In my mind, it's apples to oranges and devalues the meaning, significance, and history of the tai-pe-go for the Kiowa (as well as its other forms in other tribes).
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Old 08-29-2001, 07:33 PM   #26
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Recently a Quapaw/Ponca women told me that the Ponca had a gourd dance a long time ago, but it wasn't the same as gourd dancing is now. She admitted she wasn't sure why it was done in the old way. Now the Ponca gourd dance like everyone else, which is the way the Kiowas do it.

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Old 08-30-2001, 12:07 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by okla49er:
[QB]i know henry made a memorial song but not a PRAYER song.
/QB]
You're right. He made it in memory of his father, Melvin Collins, Sr. and the wonderful times they spent together.
He says "Father, We remember you."
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Old 08-30-2001, 06:15 PM   #28
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Hello everyone:
Sorry I have gotten back sooner than this.
Looks like I opened a can of worms.
1) the reason I mentioned bustles and roaches was to point out that all the warrior societies (well perhaps not all, say 99%)used what is called the Gourd dance as their society dance. It was only the Grass Dance Society that used the regalia that is used in the pow-wow today.
I forgot to mention the big drum too.
The warriors societies seemed to use 4 hand drums. The Fox Society at Ft. Berthold, (Nueta and Hidatsa) still use the hand drums.
2) The Kiowa once lived up north and so possibly are the originators of the Gourd Dance.
I hope I didn't upset anyone.
LouieG
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:p
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Old 08-30-2001, 06:46 PM   #29
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I mentioned this site to one of the original members of the revived society and he checked this thread out. He also mentioned, like what LGarcia just said, that the Kiowas originally came from the north, so pwr's comment on the strangeness of northern singers singing gourd dance songs with Zotigh was not so strange to him. He also noted that most of the other plains tribes that gourd dance, got the dance from the Comanches, who got it from the Kiowas. He was also there back in the early to mid-seventies when the dance was given to the Poncas, and even named alot of the families that were there.

Park was correct when he said you had to be Kiowa to dance in the afternoons there. They say "No in-laws", meaning other tribes that are married in, but they say it in Kiowa. There are a few exceptions for some fortunate individuals where Gourd Clan members have made a way for them to dance down there, but the general rule is that you have to be Kiowa to dance there.

Powwower, expect a PM from me.
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Old 10-16-2001, 11:09 PM   #30
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Mustang Songs are used with Brush Dance when bringing in the drum. Buffalo dance songs end the dance session.
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Old 10-17-2001, 07:42 PM   #31
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Red face Mustang Songs

I have heard Mustang Songs also called a "Charlie Brown" by a Comanche Gourd Dancer.
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Old 10-18-2001, 02:19 AM   #32
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Sorry Sherry but 'Charlie Brown' isn't a mustang song to my knowledge. It is a specific song and not a group of songs. It is part of a group of songs called pahl-toe-gah (sp?) songs. As was said earlier these songs are the closing songs and are not mustang songs.
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Old 10-19-2001, 09:04 PM   #33
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Lightbulb Mustang Songs

Just goes to show after 20 years of Gourd Dancing you can never learn it all. There's always something new.
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Old 10-24-2001, 12:52 AM   #34
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To my knowleage and that is not a whole lot. That was a song that actually belong to a person named Charley Brown. He was a white army person. He liked the song, and it was then given to him.............TMS
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Old 12-21-2006, 01:40 AM   #35
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hmm....very interesting thread
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Old 12-21-2006, 03:17 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powwowbum49
Sorry Sherry but 'Charlie Brown' isn't a mustang song to my knowledge. It is a specific song and not a group of songs. It is part of a group of songs called pahl-toe-gah (sp?) songs. As was said earlier these songs are the closing songs and are not mustang songs.
This is the story about the Komalty Family Song as was explained to me...


While Kiowas refer to this song as the Komalty family song, they also call this song “Charlie Brown.” Many folks would immediately think of a popular comic strip by the same name. But the nickname has nothing to do with that. During the 1960s, a U.S. Army General named General Charles Brown visited a Gourd Dance on the Fort Sill Army Base. Hearing this song, he was so moved that he began to dance. Some Kiowa singers thus nicknamed the song “Charlie Brown.” The name stuck, and although it is still the Komalty family song, it is more widely known today as “Charlie Brown.”



So it was never given to the white General but nicknamed after him
I have always been told that this is a very oldddddddd Taimpego song and it would not be given him.
And it was also explained to me that it is not a Mustang song.
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Old 12-24-2006, 02:56 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by park
Don't let the (few) exceptions swallow the rule. My point is: I know plenty o' people who thought they could saunter in downtown, much to their surprise and disappointment (not to mention humiliation). I'm not opposed to others making honest mistakes or even thinking they're more than they are, so long as they learn the lesson and move on.

Let me clarify this remark, the Kiowa Gourd Clan invites anyone who is Indian to come out and dance. The only thing they ask is, "DO NOT" wear ball caps or cowboy hats. Unless your wearing the traditional gourd gance regalia. You must wear long sleeve shirts and slacks, no tee-shirts, polo shirts or blue jeans or shorts.

On the last day (4th) when they place the "war trophies" in the arena, do not cross between then, go around.

There is a "Whip Man" and if your not dancing and he comes around and "taps" you, you must get up and dance.

When camping, most of the camps by the arena are family sites, most visitors camp outside the area.

The drum is closed to only Kiowa singers and only one drum is used and sits to the westend of the arena.
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Old 12-29-2006, 10:30 PM   #38
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Getting back to Henry Collins. Three Ponca Collins brothers were Bill, Bob, and Bat. Bob was Henry's dad. The prayer song says, "Father, Take notice of me." In this instance, "father" means the Almighty, the Creator.

Henry's wife is Kiowa, and they have some big sons who now sit at the drum.
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Old 01-02-2007, 08:44 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah
This is the story about the Komalty Family Song as was explained to me...


While Kiowas refer to this song as the Komalty family song, they also call this song “Charlie Brown.” Many folks would immediately think of a popular comic strip by the same name. But the nickname has nothing to do with that. During the 1960s, a U.S. Army General named General Charles Brown visited a Gourd Dance on the Fort Sill Army Base. Hearing this song, he was so moved that he began to dance. Some Kiowa singers thus nicknamed the song “Charlie Brown.” The name stuck, and although it is still the Komalty family song, it is more widely known today as “Charlie Brown.”



So it was never given to the white General but nicknamed after him
I have always been told that this is a very oldddddddd Taimpego song and it would not be given him.
And it was also explained to me that it is not a Mustang song.
I remember the head singer being scolded by a grandmother for singing that song as a ending song (which is normally the case).

The grandma said, "That is not a quitting song, thats a no no!" The head singer then sang a different song to end the dance. Normally people sing it as a closing song, and now they look around to see if their family members are around.
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Old 01-04-2007, 02:19 AM   #40
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hehe...I've seen that, too.

I sometimes think that if it were not for the like of such matrons' fierce husbandry of our inheritance, we'd have none.

Yay, grandma's!!

It's amazing that creatures so short can wield such power. I think it's 'cause they can still reach up and grab our ears.
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