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Old 10-02-2008, 05:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe View Post
In the past 10 years, numerous gourd dance groups and societies have formed in Oklahoma and beyond.

Do all these groups have the blessings of one of the traditional tribal clans or societies?
Probably only a few
We started a thread where we tried to Trace the origins of some of them and where they came with Starting in Oklahoma
It would be intersting to see who started a few of them and where they recieved permission
I am also guess that if they are calling themselves Gourd Clubs that they feel they dont need permission to Dance
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Old 10-04-2008, 02:25 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Probably only a few
We started a thread where we tried to Trace the origins of some of them and where they came with Starting in Oklahoma
It would be intersting to see who started a few of them and where they recieved permission
I am also guess that if they are calling themselves Gourd Clubs that they feel they dont need permission to Dance
Me, too.

Here's a start to build upon. Can other add to this tree? (Think you, Josiah!)

Kiowa Gourd Clan
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Otoe Gourd Society
.........|
.........|
........./ (represents non-sanctioned by the Kiowa Gourd Clan)
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Kiowa Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Texas Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Gulf Coast Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Quapaw Intertribal Guord Society
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Memphis Tia Piah Big River Clan
.........|
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Oklahoma Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Ponca Gourd Dance Society
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Old 10-04-2008, 08:38 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotigh View Post
Me, too.

Here's a start to build upon. Can other add to this tree? (Think you, Josiah!)

Kiowa Gourd Clan
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Otoe Gourd Society
.........|
.........|
........./ (represents non-sanctioned by the Kiowa Gourd Clan)
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Kiowa Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Texas Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Gulf Coast Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Quapaw Intertribal Guord Society
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Memphis Tia Piah Big River Clan
.........|
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Oklahoma Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Ponca Gourd Dance Society

Thanks Zotigh! This is a great start to trace the origins of gourd dance.

I have a question for anybody...


If a gourd singer or dancer supports a gourd dance "group" by singing or dancing at their gourd dance, are they condoning and acknowledging this particular gourd group as legitimate?

Or does it really matter, don't worry about it, enjoy yourself and gourd dance? *L
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Old 10-04-2008, 09:47 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotigh View Post
Me, too.

Here's a start to build upon. Can other add to this tree? (Think you, Josiah!)

Kiowa Gourd Clan
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Otoe Gourd Society
.........|
.........|
........./ (represents non-sanctioned by the Kiowa Gourd Clan)
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Kiowa Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Texas Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Gulf Coast Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Quapaw Intertribal Guord Society
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Memphis Tia Piah Big River Clan
.........|
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Oklahoma Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Ponca Gourd Dance Society
Back in the 60's the Omaha came down and ask permission from the Kiowa Tia-Piah and formed the Omaha Tia-Piah they were taught some gourd songs and they went back up to Macy. I found some evidence of this when I found some old archive pictures on the Libary of Congress website
The photos were taken in 1983...
Last year it was announced that anyone knew how to get a hold of them to invite them back to our Annual celebration please do so.

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Old 10-04-2008, 09:52 AM   #25
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send them to me DZ I'll sancition them for 50g's and I will be know as cheif dustybottoms!!! aye!!!

you know you can tell ppl till your blue in the face they gonna do what they gonna do... all you can do is try to set an example.... here goes another "you have to be a vet to dance this dance group!"

the all mighty way ward kiowa Dusty Zoddle has spoken and it is good!!! thats what what they gonna tell ppl in ok.... you know your gulity by just being there!!
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Last edited by WhoMe; 10-06-2008 at 11:33 AM..
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Old 10-04-2008, 09:53 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe View Post
Thanks Zotigh! This is a great start to trace the origins of gourd dance.

I have a question for anybody...


If a gourd singer or dancer supports a gourd dance "group" by singing or dancing at their gourd dance, are they condoning and acknowledging this particular gourd group as legitimate?

Or does it really matter, don't worry about it, enjoy yourself and gourd dance? *L
Hmmm I think a good example of that is the Oklahoma Gourd Dance Club
Some of the members are also members of the Kiowa Tia-Piah and sometimes are cohosts at our annual
I am not sure whom they belong to
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Old 10-07-2008, 02:04 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Back in the 60's the Omaha came down and ask permission from the Kiowa Tia-Piah and formed the Omaha Tia-Piah they were taught some gourd songs and they went back up to Macy. I found some evidence of this when I found some old archive pictures on the Libary of Congress website
The photos were taken in 1983...
Last year it was announced that anyone knew how to get a hold of them to invite them back to our Annual celebration please do so.
That is an interesting photo. And, interesting also that since the Kiowa received the War Dance from the Omaha and built our Ohoma Society war dance society from their gift...it must be just lack of knowledge as to why the roots of the Omaha Tiah Piah is not as well known.

Editing my post to note that I am NOT of the Ohoma Society, so I have no right to post about that history. The Ohoma Society is a MAJOR society in our Kiowa Tribe and the post about the Omaha gourd society is / may be related...so, it is interesting. But, the leaders of the Kiowa Gourd Clan and/or the leaders of the Kiowa Ohoma Society would have to relate the stories of relationship to our tribal societies.
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Last edited by Zotigh; 10-07-2008 at 02:11 AM..
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Old 10-07-2008, 03:31 AM   #28
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Scott, I have a (?). how does the Osage Gourd Clan fit on your chart?
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:54 PM   #29
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excuse me for bringing up this old thread but maybe some of you still find this as interesting as i do, wondering about how all these gourd societies came about... i wish i could offer more details about the UmoNhoN Tiah Piah Society, but it all came about before my time and i only know the general story of it happening. i think ive heard it was around 1968 or so..there was alot of traveling back and forth from nebraska to oklahoma by my grandparents and other relatives. my grandparents are the late Charles and Elizabeth Stabler, i have been told the gourd dance was given to my grandpas brother Clyde Sheridan, and he was told to bring it back up to the UmoNhoN people. ive also been told the UmoNhoN Tiah Piah Society was originally based here in Lincoln, being called The UmoNhoN Tiah Piah Society Of Lincoln, Nebraska.. so grandpa Clyde brought that up here and Grandpa Charlie must have been one of the first members.. now as i say, this is all before my time so i dont have any details, these are just the things ive been told.. at some time the society ended up moving base up to Macy, thats where it is based today.. ive been asking around about the state of the omaha tiah piah society as an organization nowadays.. seems as though it hasnt gone away but maybe also isnt moving forward.. we continue to have Gourd Dance and Hand Game regularly here in Lincoln, but alot of the dancers seem to have gotten away from the simple traditions of the dance, such as ball caps and short sleeves etc... as a young(ish) man it is not my place to correct people so all i can do is try to set an example myself. i am not a member of the UmoNhoN Tiah Piah Society but my grandpa Charlie and many of my uncles are and were. i love the dance. i dont know that i cleared anything up at all but these are just my thoughts today.
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Old 05-09-2009, 01:19 AM   #30
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That is very interesting!
Let them know they are still remembered and thought of, the Annual Celebration is July 2nd 3rd and 4th at Chieftain park south of Carnegie Oklahoma
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Old 05-11-2009, 01:19 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotigh View Post
Me, too.

Here's a start to build upon. Can other add to this tree? (Think you, Josiah!)

Kiowa Gourd Clan
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Otoe Gourd Society
.........|
.........|
........./ (represents non-sanctioned by the Kiowa Gourd Clan)
Just wondering what "(represents non-sanctioned by the Kiowa Gourd Clan)"???
Do you know what groups these are?

Golden State Gourd Society was sanctioned by the Kiowa Gourd Clan in 1971.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in the mid-60's, 1965, when the Oklahoma Tia-Piah Society split from the Kiowa Gourd Clan, weren't they called the "Tia-Piah Society of Oklahoma"? And when the Kiowa Tia-Piah Society split from the Oklahoma Tia-Piah Society, they were called "Tia-Piah Society of Carnegie"? Anyone know?
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:47 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fretg View Post
Just wondering what "(represents non-sanctioned by the Kiowa Gourd Clan)"???
Do you know what groups these are?

Golden State Gourd Society was sanctioned by the Kiowa Gourd Clan in 1971.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in the mid-60's, 1965, when the Oklahoma Tia-Piah Society split from the Kiowa Gourd Clan, weren't they called the "Tia-Piah Society of Oklahoma"? And when the Kiowa Tia-Piah Society split from the Oklahoma Tia-Piah Society, they were called "Tia-Piah Society of Carnegie"? Anyone know?
I was told the exact opposite...
Kiowa Tia-Piah split from the Kiowa Gourd Clan in 1965, they are calling this year our 44th annual celebration, then later the Oklahoma Tia-piah split from the Kiowa Tia-piah and moved down to medicine park.
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Old 05-11-2009, 01:40 PM   #33
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not Scott

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE View Post
Scott, I have a (?). how does the Osage Gourd Clan fit on your chart?
Hello, I'm not Scott, but I remember when uncle Ed Red Eagle went to Grandpa Taft Hainta and asked to be okay'd to start a gourd dance group This was a nice dinner and conversation, It was a wonderful experience to hear these men speak on behalf of their people, and dances, and families. This was two men speaking about a dance, on an honorable and respectable level. All that was asked by Grandpa Taft and was later echoed by another grandfather, was that the dress "code" be respected. And was agreed to by Uncle Ed. Then somewhere as time passed, an mc referred to them as the "Osage Gourd Clan". No one really said anything, but it "stuck", and they now call themselves the Osage Gourd "CLAN". To those around the Kiowa Gourd Clan, there is only one "Clan". Also as time passed, the Osage Gourd Dance Group, started letting the dress "code" go by the wayside, (hats, short sleeves, jeans, sandals) kinda' as if there are no rules to go by. And it's not just this group, there are others. Anyway, I saw this thread and thought I'd add a little bit, about some "highly" noticeable things. Now back to the original thread. WhoMe, as members of the Kiowa Gourd Clan, it was said back when "Grandpa Smoke" was still alive that, we are like ambassadors in that, we are to see that this is done right. And it was said at the benefit I was at in April '09. No "bowing" or "removing your colors" or "lowering your flags" or nothing like that, but a simple show or sign of respect for something you know should be respected. Like adhering to rules or asking for permission. Over time, some things can be lost, but hopefully, if these things get brought up, then, our children and grandchildren will be able to continue our ways and traditions, properly. You know the answers, don't worry about "stepping on toes" or hurting anyones feelings. They came to you because you know, if you don't, then you know who to ask.

Last edited by farmer ned; 05-11-2009 at 06:45 PM.. Reason: I have a cold
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:00 PM   #34
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I truly enjoy reading about these things. I would be honored to be allowed to sit with you all and listen.
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Old 05-16-2009, 12:18 AM   #35
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Comanche Gourd Clan
Comanche Little Ponies
Ayy...

Kiowa Gourd Clan
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Otoe Gourd Society
.........|
.........|
........./ (represents non-sanctioned by the Kiowa Gourd Clan)
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Kiowa Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Texas Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Gulf Coast Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Quapaw Intertribal Guord Society
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Memphis Tia Piah Big River Clan
.........|
.........|
.........|
.........|----- Oklahoma Tiah Piah
.........|....................|
.........|....................|
.........|....................|----- Ponca Gourd Dance Society
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