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Old 05-19-2006, 01:18 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numunu1971
So then what is the M.C. for?
The powwows that I attend, the M.C.s will explain to the spectators what is going on during blanket songs, and why. If I was a spectator, who didn't know any better, and I saw some guy raising his dollars up in the air, it wouldn't move me to go into the arena. But if an M.C. is doing his job, then they will explain those things.
As far as expenses go, I think it is great to help out the drum, or head staff with donations. I think in the arena, it is more of a show of respect and gratitude. Many powwow committees will give staff an honorarium for coming.
I have yet to see anyone get rich on the powwow trail.....
When I raise a dollar, It's usually after the MC has explained what will happen. Call me a visual aid if you will. Not everyone hears the MC because they are talking among themselves and not listening to everything. We all have said "What did the MC say?" and miss something. Remember we hang out on the trail and knows what goes on. For a lot of the spectators, it's a once a year thing. "Gotta get to that powwow thing this weekend. The kids will love it!"

No one gets rich on the powwow trail that I know. If a drum or dancer kept a ledger on their expenses, honorariums, blanket money and contracts, they would find that they are loosing money over a years time. Even the vendors seem to just get by going powwow to powwow. I wonder how you could file the loss with the IRS. LOL

The only people I have heard of making money on the trail are the dancers that contest every weekend. Then its a crap shoot to come out ahead at the end of the year. With gas prices this year even the heavy hitter contest dancers are going to loose a lot of cash on the trail.

Our company provides sound systems at powwows, rock and country shows We also provide sound for other events throughtout the year. The powwows we do are usually done at our costs or below. Pay our gas and take care of our expenses and you have a kick butt professional powwow sound system. It's a way for us to give back to our people. Some powwows we do for free just because.

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Old 05-19-2006, 02:09 AM   #22
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Thats true, I too have said, "Hey, What did that M.C. say"? Sometimes, they will be telling a story (long winded ones usually) and pause to explain something to the audience, and then get back to the story, some of which I've heard 100 times. So, I am guilty of that myself.
I wonder if the IRS would allow us to write off our losses, "for cultural reasons"? I may try that next year. There is no doubt, that attending powwows and ceremonials is a major expense in my life. I don't contest dance, so the only way i make money is by winning 50/50's. Ayy... Of course, it ain't about the money anyway.
I live in Northern Ok. and most of the dances I attend are in Southwest Ok. 3 and 1/2 hour drive most of the time. I drive a F-350 dually pickup truck (NDN Cadillac). It costs me $100.00 dollars in gas alone to go to a dance. Crazy ain't it. But I do it.
I appreciate the fact that you do some sound systems "just because". Its a good thing to give back like that. Its also good PR for your company. Keep it up and good luck to you.
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Old 05-19-2006, 10:38 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numunu1971
I drive a F-350 dually pickup truck (NDN Cadillac). It costs me $100.00 dollars in gas alone to go to a dance. Crazy ain't it. But I do it.
I appreciate the fact that you do some sound systems "just because". Its a good thing to give back like that. Its also good PR for your company. Keep it up and good luck to you.
It ain't crazy for any of us. It's just the way we live. I know all about the gas costs. When we work a powwow, we drive an E350 24 foot class C motorhome. We call it the "Tin Tipi". There is a picture of it in the gallery here. This weekend we will be taking our minivan and take a hotel room. We will not be doing sound for this powwow. Sometimes even the sound man needs to get out there and dance all weekend. We will pick the kids up at school at the end of their day and hit the trail. First stop is gas and expressos for me and mom. Second stop is Micky Ds for the kids. (across the street from stop one). And then we are gone!!!!!

It's gonna be a rough weekend. Room service at the hotel closes at midnight. We looked at our costs for this weekend and found that it was better to take a hotel then drive the tin tipi and stay on the powwow grounds. We talked about taking a tent instead of doing the hotel to cut costs more but, the idea of never ending hot showers and a whirlpool spa won. I don't get a chance to just dance all weekend very often. Besides if a drum does the water song and the rain thing happens, we have a place to go that's dry. We will open the room to family and friends and keep things going. It's happened before and I'm sure it will happen again. Being part Spokane, I have learned how to pack fish in a can. It's no different packing indians into a hotel room.

We don't do the give backs for PR. We do it because of who we are. Our family tries to hold on to the old values.
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Old 05-19-2006, 12:47 PM   #24
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witnessed this in Ignacio, CO.

I attended a birthday pow wow in Ignacio, CO in April and attended the gourd dancing before the pow wow. I was in awe of the gourd dancers, as this was my first time observing a gourd dance. When it came time to honor the honoree I noticed that the gourd dancers did the samee thing, hold a dollar bill up and then lay it at the feet of the honoree. Since I was a spectator, I wasnt sure of the proper protical so I remained sitting. I enjoyed the gourd dancing and felt out of place at times when it came to the honorings and all. I can honestly say that I enjoyed the gourd dancing and plan to attend more when I am down south again.
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Old 06-04-2006, 08:59 PM   #25
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dollar raising !

I first encountered this "ritual" about three years ago in Okla. and thought WHAT H... was that ? I can only gourd dance when my diabetes and arthritis allows but when I do , man my spirit really gets into it . I always try to give honor to those who are being honored whether they are male or female, as a warrior of the Muscogee/Creek Nation, I feel it is an unspoken privilage to honor these people in a way so deserving. It may be the "new Thang" but the money still hits the blanket ennit !?! I prefer a table but.........not at a powwow !
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Old 06-07-2006, 06:53 PM   #26
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Well, who saw this "Krazy gourd tradition" at the Gathering?


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Old 06-07-2006, 07:26 PM   #27
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Gourd dance.

I shall always stay with tradition, as far as I am concerned , fads are for the non-ndn !
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Old 06-08-2006, 04:39 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redstick warrior
I shall always stay with tradition, as far as I am concerned , fads are for the non-ndn !
What tradition would that be? Just curious....
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Old 06-08-2006, 08:00 PM   #29
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Exclamation tradition.

Just want to dance the way the dance was intended thats all !
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Old 06-09-2006, 09:17 AM   #30
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Tradition

Quote:
Originally Posted by redstick warrior
Just want to dance the way the dance was intended thats all !
Well I think thats fantastic. I am only asking because I like to hear what other peoples traditions are. Especially where gourd dance is concerned. I'm still not sold on the dollar bill raising. See, the tradition I was taught is to be low key when giving money to someone or honoring someone. Like, hold it in you hand and shake hands with the person, don't make a big deal of it. Raising the dollar up in the air defeats that tradition I was taught.....Numunu
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Old 06-09-2006, 09:29 AM   #31
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I've seen muh uncles and cuzz and other members of our family hold a dollar up before. ONly they dont' hold it way high in the air. They just like hold it up between waist and chest high then lay it on the blanket. What they are doing is not trying to be all obvious about it but they are asking the creators blessing on the person receiving it and acknowledgeing that the money comes from the creator and they are thanking him for blessing them with the ability to be able to pass that on to others. Thas just what we do.
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Old 06-11-2006, 01:40 AM   #32
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Numunu, I too was taught that the low keyed manner is to be the way. I'm not sold nor do I agree with the raising of the dollar or using your fan to place the dollar at one feet. I'm also not keen on the uninvited to help out with an honor, I call this a line dance.
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Old 06-13-2006, 02:17 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE
Numunu, I too was taught that the low keyed manner is to be the way. I'm not sold nor do I agree with the raising of the dollar or using your fan to place the dollar at one feet. I'm also not keen on the uninvited to help out with an honor, I call this a line dance.
That, and how folks pick up the stuff layed in front of them during an 'honouring'. ??? wha??

The 'honouring' is a mini-giveaway for the person being 'honoured'. Folks that come put their bills or items at your feet are honouring you by helping you GIVE away...not for you to TAKE. :P~~~~~

You are bound by honour to stay put and hostage to the stuff in front of you until it is all given away.

Yet I see folks reach down and pick up the money and stuff put in front of them.

::shakes head::

If you are being 'honoured' during a dance, they will come and place you...then, they will bring someone to stand by you to pick up the stuff at your feet to allow you to move afterwards. 'cause otherwise, you are stuck. you cannot move until the stuff before you is given away.

I see so many folks making the big long line of dancers and putting stuff in front of those being honoured, and then the one being honoured picking up the stuff in front of him!! lol

So...if that person has a special sometime, expect them to lay a blanket out and his family to put stuff there, and then he'll invite folks to come put stuff there, too, and in the end he'll just pick it all up and take it home.

WHA??

yeah.. silly

Our honouring is a mini-giveaway. the stuff put in front of the honouree is what they are giving away. you are just helping them give. the honour they get is from giving. I don't know where folks ever got the idea that taking was an honour. :P

Some folks that know better feel shy and help pick up, then give to the drum or host...but, that has led to confusion. Folks are watching.

Stuff in front of you is to give away. You cannot move until it is given away. If they did not bring someone to pick it up, you stand there and ask someone to call someone to pick it up or motion (without pointing...use your lower lip...hehe) for someone to come pick it up.

Let's break the self-beneficial "ritual" folks are using to benefit themselves. This is a custom turned upside-down.
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Old 06-13-2006, 02:36 AM   #34
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As a dancer of the White Eagle Gourd Society, I've seen the dollar raised at numerous Pow Wows and again as I danced at the Gathering. I was told it is lifted to the drums and that may have special meaning to some or it may actually be to the sky. I've seen it has go to Princesses, veterans, leaders, and other persons of special honor including the drummers.

We may all have preferences as to what we like to see and we have a right to express our opinions, but until we do understand what is the significance of a thing, wouldn't it be wise to hold judgment and learn about it first?
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Old 06-13-2006, 02:44 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwight
As a dancer of the White Eagle Gourd Society, I've seen the dollar raised at numerous Pow Wows...
What does it mean to you?

'cause it does not mean anything to us. And, seems silly.


"lookee!! I'm giving!!"

:P

contrary to the honouring
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Old 06-13-2006, 08:37 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotigh
That, and how folks pick up the stuff layed in front of them during an 'honouring'. ??? wha??

The 'honouring' is a mini-giveaway for the person being 'honoured'. Folks that come put their bills or items at your feet are honouring you by helping you GIVE away...not for you to TAKE. :P~~~~~

You are bound by honour to stay put and hostage to the stuff in front of you until it is all given away.

Yet I see folks reach down and pick up the money and stuff put in front of them.

::shakes head::

If you are being 'honoured' during a dance, they will come and place you...then, they will bring someone to stand by you to pick up the stuff at your feet to allow you to move afterwards. 'cause otherwise, you are stuck. you cannot move until the stuff before you is given away.

I see so many folks making the big long line of dancers and putting stuff in front of those being honoured, and then the one being honoured picking up the stuff in front of him!! lol

So...if that person has a special sometime, expect them to lay a blanket out and his family to put stuff there, and then he'll invite folks to come put stuff there, too, and in the end he'll just pick it all up and take it home.

WHA??

yeah.. silly

Our honouring is a mini-giveaway. the stuff put in front of the honouree is what they are giving away. you are just helping them give. the honour they get is from giving. I don't know where folks ever got the idea that taking was an honour. :P

Some folks that know better feel shy and help pick up, then give to the drum or host...but, that has led to confusion. Folks are watching.

Stuff in front of you is to give away. You cannot move until it is given away. If they did not bring someone to pick it up, you stand there and ask someone to call someone to pick it up or motion (without pointing...use your lower lip...hehe) for someone to come pick it up.

Let's break the self-beneficial "ritual" folks are using to benefit themselves. This is a custom turned upside-down.
I was taught almost the same as you. When something is placed at my feet during a dance, I was taught to only allow myself a small area to dance in about a 4 to 5 foot circle. My wife was taught to scrub when this happens. We do not pick up the gifts at the end of the dance. We wait untill the arena director comes in and picks up the gifts for us. It's the arena directors job to pick up the gifts or assign someone to help out. Most of the time when the AD needs help, he calls on the head veterian. If you end up at a place with an AD that doesn't know his job, you stand there untill the AD figures it out. (sometimes you gotta coach him a bit) You never touch the gifts untill they are placed in your hands. If no one comes to take care of the matter, you stay in place no matter how long it takes. If it holds up the powwow, so what! Things must be done in the right way.

The gifts I receive are given away to others in a respectful way out of the publics eye. The drum always gets a gift because it was their song that helped in the dance. The drum and dancer are connected in a special way because of the song. I will approach the drum first then others after I leave the circle in the proper way (the way I came in). The only way you will ever see me give away the items, is if you pay attention and know what is going on.

The entire thing must be done in a respectful and proper way or it has no meaning. By keeping the gifts, you disrespect all who have given to you and yourself.

I'm not out in the circle to show off. I'm out there to dance and pray. If my dance moves you to drop a buck at my feet, Thank You! Please understand your gift will be given to others who need it more then me. I'll get along just fine.
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Old 06-13-2006, 10:54 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotigh
What does it mean to you?

'cause it does not mean anything to us. And, seems silly.


"lookee!! I'm giving!!"

:P

contrary to the honouring
So far, I've tried to understand why a person is being honored. I have not given everytime, but when I choose to honor someone it's because I feel they have been placed there because they need help.

If a person needs help, I feel honored if I am in a position to be of assistance and do so willingly and cheerfully. If I'm going to give, it's because my heart is there.

Should the gift be part of the Gourd Dance? I don't know. Maybe someone wants to write the protocol on this that can be attached to all the Gourd Dance stories (I've noticed they all seemed to be copied from the same source).

But I also know that in the Southwest where I live, the people are plenty poor and leaders are quite sensitive to the needs and sacrifices that are abundant. As in all things, there can be purpose and abuse. The AD is hopefully one that is chosen with care and we can respect his choice in determining the appropriateness of a blanket dance. If not, perhaps we need to point this out, first to him, then to those responsible for choosing the AD.
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Old 06-13-2006, 12:29 PM   #38
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Is there not honor in giving? What is honorable about jeering? I mentioned that I felt some were given the blanket because they may have needed it. Veterans have always been there when it counts. They help the families of fallen comrades and they are sympathetic when other families go through terrible ordeals. Vets are always there, serving, giving, honoring. I don't know if you can truly separate giving and honoring.

There are some who are honored who apparently have no need. To honor them is a noble thing. But when someone is in need, have we misdirected our good will to give to the one who needs not and give not to the one in need?
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Old 06-13-2006, 07:44 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by dwight
Is there not honor in giving? What is honorable about jeering? I mentioned that I felt some were given the blanket because they may have needed it. Veterans have always been there when it counts. They help the families of fallen comrades and they are sympathetic when other families go through terrible ordeals. Vets are always there, serving, giving, honoring. I don't know if you can truly separate giving and honoring.

There are some who are honored who apparently have no need. To honor them is a noble thing. But when someone is in need, have we misdirected our good will to give to the one who needs not and give not to the one in need?

If someone drops a buck or two at my feet while in the circle, it's because something about my dance has moved them in some way, Yes I am honored that my dance moved someone in a good way. Along with that honor comes respect and tradition. I am bound by my teachings and tradition to give those gifts to one who is in need. It's becomes matter of my honor as a member of the community.

Zotigh and I appear to have been somewhat taught in the same way. We are of different tribes as well. It makes one wonder how many other traditions our community has lost.

On the lighter side, I guess we were both taught to "Pass the Buck" to someone in need.

Ken
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Old 06-14-2006, 03:08 AM   #40
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Ken: I think that the honoring during a powwow dance and that of a Gourd dance are similar but not quite the same. If I miss the mark I hope Zotigh can bring me back on line.

In a Powwow dance some one likes th eway you dance OR they have some other purpose, but personal none the less. Yes, some one comes out to pick up the gift and it goes to the dancer. Should no one come out to help, it is the ADs job to pick it up for you.

In a Gourd dance when some one is honored it usually is for some one that means a lot to you, some one special to you for some reason. You ask some one else you wish to recieve the gift to help you honor this great person. After the song is finished the person invited to help should be the one to retrieve the gift. This is that persons gift to do with as they wish, give to the drum, pocket, etc.. This is not for some one to get enough money to buy gas, food or what ever. This is an honoring for the individual. I equate this honoring as a private party, something personal between the 2 gentlemen I want to honor. Yes, some may want to come and help because these gentlemen are special to those helping. I can't believe that everyone helping can even know everyone being honored that well. I feel sometimes like some are crashing this party uninvited.

There may be another honoring in the Gourd dance that Zotigh has mentiioned. That is the Give away. A person, family, etc., wishes to have a give away for their reason. Items are placed at the feet of the dancer. After the song is finished the items are given to those they are wished for. There may be many or few items. What ever money is placed on the ground will go into the gifting.

I hope I have said these things without offending anyone and I hope I have actually said these things correctly. Sometimes I don't always put my words together right, and say things I don't really mean quite the way I said it. I hope Zotigh and others can fix anything I say wrong.
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