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Old 01-30-2006, 04:34 PM   #1
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Questionable website

I just received an enquiry from one of the headsmen of the Kiowa Gourd Clan concerning a "questionable website" and the information that this website contains.

Tell me whatcha' think?



www.redstargourd.com/

"On April 23, 2004, at the “Gathering of Nations“ Pow Wow in Albuquerque New Mexico, William “Two Horses“ Stogsdill, Walter “Paw-e-tan-wi“ Stogsdill, and Al “Nighthawk“ Bellamy were inducted into the Cherokee Red Star Gourd Dance Society Of New Mexico. The Cherokee Red Star of New Mexico was sanctioned as a Gourd Dance Society by the Kiowa and Comanche and brought to the New Mexico group in 1998 by Mr. Short, of Oklahoma.

After William “Two Horses“ Stogsdill’s induction, as a long time gourd dancer, he was given the honor of being selected to be Headman of the East for the Society. In that position, he could bring the Gourd Dance to Eastern tribes and Native American veterans groups who wished to learn the dance and be sanctioned as Gourd Dance Societies."




Hmmmmm???
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Old 01-30-2006, 04:41 PM   #2
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I think they are colored impaired... just my first thought!
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Old 01-30-2006, 04:58 PM   #3
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In my opinion, this is another group who is doing things "their way."

Anybody have any idea what Kiowas or Comanches "sanctioned" this gourd group?

After looking over the rest of their website......


HMMMMMMMM???????
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Old 01-30-2006, 05:03 PM   #4
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That was my question...who are they sanctioned by? I feel that its a lie.

After looking at the first set of photos of their "naming" ceremony, I'd already made up my mind about this group, and I feel I'm pretty much right on the money in that they are not a real group.
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Old 01-30-2006, 05:11 PM   #5
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OMG whome dang see that what i've been screaming about its groups like that, that make me sick lol and they seem to think they have every right to do that. geeeeez...i know of a whitestar gourd clan group up north as result of pay off to somebody so they can get that type of name for the group.
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Old 01-30-2006, 05:28 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
"On April 23, 2004, at the “Gathering of Nations“ Pow Wow in Albuquerque New Mexico, William “Two Horses“ Stogsdill, Walter “Paw-e-tan-wi“ Stogsdill, and Al “Nighthawk“ Bellamy were inducted into the Cherokee Red Star Gourd Dance Society Of New Mexico. The Cherokee Red Star of New Mexico was sanctioned as a Gourd Dance Society by the Kiowa and Comanche and brought to the New Mexico group in 1998 by Mr. Short, of Oklahoma.

After William “Two Horses“ Stogsdill’s induction, as a long time gourd dancer, he was given the honor of being selected to be Headman of the East for the Society. In that position, he could bring the Gourd Dance to Eastern tribes and Native American veterans groups who wished to learn the dance and be sanctioned as Gourd Dance Societies."


Anybody heard of:

Mr. Short from Oklahoma?

A "Headman of the East" who through his position "could bring the Gourd Dance to Eastern tribes and Native American veterans groups who wish to learn the dance and be sanctioned as Gourd Dance Societies."

The Cherokee Red Star Gourd Dance Society of New Mexico?
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Old 01-30-2006, 05:54 PM   #7
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http://www.ibiadecisions.com/Ibiadec.../35ibia157.PDF

here's something about bill "two horses" stogsdill!

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Old 01-30-2006, 11:28 PM   #8
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WTF?
1998?? I did plenty of powwowin' in Walters and Cache and Lawton 'round then...I never saw any of these folks in the real Comanche country LOL...what a crock!

Mr. Short???? nevahearduvhim
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:07 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walela49
WTF?
1998?? I did plenty of powwowin' in Walters and Cache and Lawton 'round then...I never saw any of these folks in the real Comanche country LOL...what a crock!

Mr. Short???? nevahearduvhim
Then you must not have been at the 'happenin' powwows!!!


Jussss kiddin.
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Old 01-31-2006, 10:54 AM   #10
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funny

frikin white guyz get your own site i hate when those kind of people do this why cant they just enjoy that we have ceromonies and not have to have them too.Stupid i hate when that happens.
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Old 01-31-2006, 11:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad
Then you must not have been at the 'happenin' powwows!!!


Jussss kiddin.

shush you...nothin' wrong with podunkie okie powwows!! LOL
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Old 01-31-2006, 04:29 PM   #12
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whoa

now that naming ceremony lol tall squirrel and crying bird i want a cool name too
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Old 01-31-2006, 05:48 PM   #13
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Before I looked at their website I was wondering..........

Is that the same society that was wearing the garters right below their knee's and over their jeans @ Gathering of Nations in 2004????

And yes it is!

I am not happy to see things like this.
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Old 01-31-2006, 06:15 PM   #14
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by southern_xtreme2k5
now that naming ceremony lol tall squirrel and crying bird i want a cool name too
O.K.... you wanna cool name...???...How about rabbits foot? Or Albino raccoon? hmmmm.... Well, since your from New Mexico, how about Coyote Ugly?
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Old 02-01-2006, 02:10 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
I just received an enquiry from one of the headsmen of the Kiowa Gourd Clan concerning a "questionable website"....www.redstargourd.com/
We are under attack from folks that think that it is their right to steal dance and song from us.

We don't have individually the resources to fight against it.

Our enemies know this.

Our Gourd Dance is being subverted and taken from us as if it were public domain.

Every pretend society that claims a bogus right to dance steals honour and effort from each of the real societies that made the effort to actually approach one of the founding Gourd Societies to gain the endowment of our dance.

This should not be encouraged.

We fight. We must fight. We cannot let these pretenders take for theirs what we have been endowed.

It cheapens and soils our legacy. For folks like this to claim a right they don't have, and have not even tried to obtain is despicable.

They simply take. Like so many before them...they simply take. Like the stock they come from, they simply take.

It's every Gourd Dancer's duty to show them that they cannot simply take.

The Gourd Dance WILL be honoured, not stolen.

A "Mr. Short" 'gave' the 'Red Star Society' permission on behalf of the Kiowa and Comanche to TAKE the Gourd Dance as theirs, and further to give our dance to anyone in the East??

Hello??

Who is this "Mr. Short"??

He is not a Gourd Clan Headsman.

I'm gonna guess that he's not the headsman of any real Gourd Society.

Every one of these circus-puppets that claim our dance and songs, and steal from our endowment, soils the legacy we hand over to those who come after us.

Unless we want to pass down a Gourd Dance that has clowns like these as an example, then we should all fight to uphold the traditions we have been taught.

Each of us Gourd Dancers have the responsability to ensure the legacy we received. Your endowment brings also the responsability of upholding the trust placed in you towards protecting the dance.

Protect the dance by your example of how it should be held, and kept. Protect the dance, by supporting those that keep it likewise and discourage the ones who simply steal our legacy.

My children will inherit the dance you protect. Your children will inherit the dance I protect.

Let's cooperate.
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Old 02-01-2006, 02:37 AM   #16
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I'm not sure who this "Mr. Short" is bu tI know some Shorts and they are Cherokee. In fact one of my cousins married into the Short family. This particular family lives in the Lawton area.

The website story of the group explains why some of these guys start howling like a dog in heat after each song.
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Old 02-01-2006, 02:12 PM   #17
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I debated long and hard about posting on this topic. I would like to say I mean no disrespect to anyone here, it is not my way. But I seem to be confused about some issues and need some clarifications.

Mr. Zotigh, I respectfully ask can you tell me exactly which gourd groups ARE sanctioned? Who is this sanctioning body? Do the Comanche or the Cheyenne have this authority or just the Kiowa? Are all Kiowa gourd dancers sanctioned, or only the ones belonging to the Kiowa Gourd Clan?

Are any of you here sanctioned? WhoMe? Cherosage? This issue seems to be a reoccuring theme here. If the answer is no, how does this make any of you better than this group that is being criticized?

I gourd dance. I belong to no clan, society, or group, but I try my best to do things in a right way, with respect and honor. I do not, on the other hand, view myself as a thief or any other derogatory thing I have read here. I do my best to learn the history of the dance, it's meaning, and dance with the best of my ability with honor and dignity, to pay respect to my father who fell in service, to all warriors, and to my ancestors. Could someone please educate me on these questions of mine, I'm more than willing to learn from anyone with a valid reply, to more fully understand my place in the gourd dance. If I've gone off topic, for that I am sorry, but I really need some clarification. Thank you for your time.
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Old 02-01-2006, 02:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streamhawk
Are any of you here sanctioned? WhoMe? .....If the answer is no, how does this make any of you better than this group that is being criticized?.

Shawk,

I am a product a long line of individuals who have always been Tdia'npiahgah since it's inception.

Even with this background, I would never "sanction" anybody.


What is this "sanctioning bizeeness" anyways???
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Old 02-01-2006, 03:07 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
What is this "sanctioning bizeeness" anyways???

lol, heck, I dunno, beats me. Perhaps I misunderstood the gist of the original post. I thought it was about the "sanctioning" of this group, and their authority to "sanction" other groups. Me, I just wanna dance and not be subject to these types of ridicule. Maybe I'll have the pleasure of dancing with you one of these daze.
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Old 02-01-2006, 03:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streamhawk
lol, heck, I dunno, beats me. Perhaps I misunderstood the gist of the original post. I thought it was about the "sanctioning" of this group, and their authority to "sanction" other groups. Me, I just wanna dance and not be subject to these types of ridicule. Maybe I'll have the pleasure of dancing with you one of these daze.

Shawk,

The purpose of this thread was to fulfill an enquiry from one of our headsmen.

If you wanna ask him these questions personally, I have his tell #.



P.S. I only gourd dance one time a year, during our ceremony.
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