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Old 02-01-2006, 03:23 PM   #21
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Good Question WhoMe

"What is this sanctioning bizness anyway?"
That is a very good question. Damn good question, really.

Everybody wants to be seen as "authentic" nowadays. I believe some of these groups have good intentions, some don't. For some, I think its about status. For some, I think its a poor mans social club.

I don't know. I was raised in Lawton, as many of you know. Mostly around the old Comanche Gourd Clan. My Grandmother, who is no longer with us, was Kiowa. We attended Kiowa Gourd Clan functions, as well. I don't recall ever hearing anyone talk about "sanctioning". Or, those people dancing over there are "sanctioned". Never heard that until recently.

I live in Northern Ok. and the tribes I dance with, always give their respects to the Kiowa people, and the Comanche as well.

Personally, I am a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan. I say that reverently, and with respect. I don't go around "sanctioning" anybody, I DO NOT HAVE THAT RIGHT. Its not my place. I know my place. I'm proud of my place. Its a good place to be. I'm young, and I have a lot to learn. But one thing I'm pretty sure of, this bizness of sanctioning is silly. Thats my OPINION anyway.

I was kind of wondering too, could our Gourd dance be considered for the Indian Arts and Crafts Law???

One more thought, I remember watching professional rasslin' when I was a kid, and the announcer would always say, "This match is "sanctioned" by the World Wrestling Federation. Hmmmmmm......
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Old 02-01-2006, 03:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numunu1971
......Personally, I am a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan. I say that reverently, and with respect. I don't go around "sanctioning" anybody, I DO NOT HAVE THAT RIGHT. Its not my place. I know my place. I'm proud of my place. Its a good place to be. I'm young, and I have a lot to learn. But one thing I'm pretty sure of, this bizness of sanctioning is silly.......

Numunu,

Ditto for me too!!!!

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Shawk,

Are YOU a part of the Red Star Gourd Society? ? ?
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Old 02-01-2006, 03:34 PM   #23
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really 4 sure?

r u really sure i can be coyote ugly? like named after the bar and the movie? really really
i got a name for you..... " Chief Numb Nuts" lol cant we all just get along.....i was poking fun of the website ok geez

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numunu1971
O.K.... you wanna cool name...???...How about rabbits foot? Or Albino raccoon? hmmmm.... Well, since your from New Mexico, how about Coyote Ugly?
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Old 02-01-2006, 03:49 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southern_xtreme2k5
....i got a name for you..... " Chief Numb Nuts" ....

POPCORN TYME!!!
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Old 02-01-2006, 03:51 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
Shawk,

Are YOU a part of the Red Star Gourd Society? ? ?

As I said, I belong to no gourd clan, society, or group. Good reply Numunu.
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Old 02-01-2006, 03:53 PM   #26
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Disclaimer: I'm not Kiowa and am not speaking for anyone other than myself.

I was introduced to gourd dancing about 15 years ago when I was taught about the dance by some great friends of mine from Carnegie. Subsequently, I was "brought into" the gourd arena and have gourd danced some in the last 15 years, although I do not consider myself a gourd dancer as I participate quite sporadically and not every one I attend.

I have no idea if I am "sanctioned" or not...they didn't tell me I was so I assume I'm not LOL

I have seen a lot of changes in the past 15 years from what I was taught about gourd dancing to what I see at pow wows today. Granted, all of these changes exist outside of Oklahoma so that may be the problem in and of itself.

In asking around, I've come to find out that there is/was a Red Star Gourd Society that did a LOT of good, but this group is not a part of that.

Now to my question...what about these other gourd dance groups that we see out there (White Star Gourd Society, Memphi Tia-piah, Texas Tia-piah, etc.)...are they legit?
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Old 02-01-2006, 04:03 PM   #27
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Dang, ANOTHER good question SingerD,



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Old 02-01-2006, 04:33 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southern_xtreme2k5
r u really sure i can be coyote ugly? like named after the bar and the movie? really really
i got a name for you..... " Chief Numb Nuts" lol cant we all just get along.....i was poking fun of the website ok geez
Hey, I'm with ya southern xtreme! Just havin' some fun. I'm glad to know, that you recognize my "chiefly" assets!! Heh, heh...Hope things are good your way....
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Old 02-01-2006, 05:42 PM   #29
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everything....

everything is good out this way looking forward to area pws coming up, denver march, Santa Ana Star casino PW week before GON, bernalillo pw day before GON, and of course GON .................ok so on that webpage it says they howl like wolfs or dogs after each song>? so i think we should do the same after each post lol ..........also i wonder if they allow @ there lil lake?
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Old 02-01-2006, 06:25 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numunu1971
Hey, I'm with ya southern xtreme! Just havin' some fun. I'm glad to know, that you recognize my "chiefly" assets!! Heh, heh...Hope things are good your way....

roflmao @ chiefly assets!!!!!!!
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Old 02-01-2006, 08:56 PM   #31
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how bout crooked snake, gorilla finger..........
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Old 02-02-2006, 02:29 AM   #32
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S'Hawk you have raised some very good (?)s. I will address one of your (?)s. I have been Gourd Dancing since the late '70s. I was stationed at Ft. Sill OK, I have some family down there. I was allowed to dance in and around Lawton. I even was allowed to dance in Carnegie when ever I was able to get there. I met and became friend by some elders, I was very honored. I danced with the CIVA many times, etc.. I was asked to belong to the Quapaw Intertribal Gourd Dance Society. I have been stationed at Ft. Sill several times, each time I have been allowed to dance with my friends and never have I been asked not to dance. I contribute this to the fact that I try to do things as I was taught years ago.

I'm not sure about these sanctioning bodies, but I believe that if a Headsman allows you to dance with him and or gives a group permission to take this dance home then it should be OK. As I have stated before, this dance has spread so far around the US and world it is not able to be brought back to only the Kiowas. The arguement that these "non-sanctioned" Gourd Dancers shouldn't dance is not even a topic anymore. I do believe that if and since the Kiowas are given the credit for the dance preservation and we aknowledge the origin this should be good enough for now. Try to keep the old ways as best as we can, I say this since many of us are NOT Kiowas. I have danced in the Black Moccasin dance and I'm not Apache though I am married to one. This does not make me Apache.

Does this help any, S'Hawk?
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Old 02-02-2006, 07:02 AM   #33
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Hey WhoMe.. pass the popcorn.. stop hoggin it all..lol this thread is getting goot.... :D
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Old 02-02-2006, 10:46 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE
Does this help any, S'Hawk?

Osiyo Cherosage,

I appreciate the time you took to respond to my question, and also appreciate your honesty in your answer. That was exactly what I was looking for. I was honored as a new dancer recently, coincidentally enough by the Osage Gourd and was told by their headman that I could dance with them at any time without invitation. In my travels I've been over to Anadarko several times and have met and become friends with several good Kiowa people. I don't believe I will have any problem holding to the old ways. I see you live relatively close to me, maybe we'll cross paths somewhere this year. Thanks again Bob, wa-do.


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Old 02-02-2006, 11:25 AM   #35
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how bout crooked snake, gorilla finger..........
You forgot "Chicken Neck".
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Old 02-02-2006, 02:20 PM   #36
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Talking Mr Short

I know Mr. Short..... His frist name is Too.

Too Short... I think he is Blackfoot tribe... and he is extra Scared!!!


He is bonafied..... Know to sanction a motha [email protected]$ everywhere he goes
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Old 02-03-2006, 01:05 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streamhawk
can you tell me exactly which gourd groups ARE sanctioned?
Dunno. There was a thread a while back about trying to find out where each of the current gourd societies recieved the right to dance. I think it'd be interesting to see. To record.

There are many posts by folks saying, "I don't belong to any society. I dance gourd. I honour the dance."

It sounds right, from a non-native view.

The native and non-native views of 'property' have always been mis-understood to eachother.

The first non-natives to come here are said to have 'bought' Manhattan for a few beads. And, don't the non-native laugh and laugh about such a rip-off.

Yet, at the time, the native folks were laughing at the non-natives.

And, without explanation, the native folks here get it. The non-natives are scratching their heads.

Land to us back then was simply there. People walked on the land. Lived on it. One would stay away from a burial area not because of the ownership of the land, but out of respect for those buried who happened to be at that location.

How do explain....If someone came up to you and pointed at the air next to your head and said, "I'd like to buy that air from you for sixty-four glass beads." You'd think him bongos and go, "heh...okay!". Who can own the air? The air is simply there. Breathe it. Use it.

It was bizarre to the natives of the time to have those non-native want to give them beads for something that was simply there. Use it. Live on it.

When the non-natives put up fences, the native folks laughed. "You can't lock the land in a fence! LOL What's it gonna do? Run away?? hahahah", they thought.

And, there has never really been understanding regarding what is 'property' even to this day.

You see, intangibles are very real property to native people. Names are closely held within families. Non-native way, you can have many people in the same family named, "John". In most native societies, you never use the name of another living person. It belongs to that person. Sometimes, that person will give permission for someone to use their name. But, that is rare. Is that custom of name ownership misunderstood?

Songs are closely held family property. Most drum groups will only sing certain family songs if asked to do so by one of the family members to whom the song belongs. And, sometimes, you may even see a family member stop the drum that is singing a song without permission. They are real property to native families. Is that custom of song ownership misunderstood?

Dances are closely held tribal society property. It is simply taking, not 'honouring', when folks dance any tribe or societies or clan's dance without being invited to do so. In the least, it is impolite. The custom of dance ownership is misunderstood by many non-natives.

These clans/society/tribal dances are ancient. Their dances have been passed on as a legacy to those to whom they belong. Sometimes, the right to dance will be given to others. That is the right of the ones who own that dance.

From this point of view, folks simply taking the dance, Gourd or any other, without permission devalues the legacy of those who recieved the right to those dances.
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Old 02-03-2006, 01:52 AM   #38
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Thanks, Zotigh, that was well put and full of good thoughts.
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Old 02-03-2006, 10:38 AM   #39
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Dang, Zotigh. That was good. Real good.

Are those thoughts your property? Can I steal them?

Just kidding.

Gotta say it again. That was real good!
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:19 PM   #40
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Mr Short?

Quote:
Originally Posted by walela49
WTF?
1998?? I did plenty of powwowin' in Walters and Cache and Lawton 'round then...I never saw any of these folks in the real Comanche country LOL...what a crock!

Mr. Short???? nevahearduvhim
from the website....

The Cherokee Red Star Gourd Dance Society was sanctioned at the Spirit Powwow, State Fairgrounds, Albuquerque, New Mexico, in 1998 by Mr. Lawrence Shortman, an enrolled member of the Southern Cheyenne, a Southern Cheyenne Elder and an elder of the Southern Cheyenne Gourd Dance Society. He is a long time member of the Kiowa Black War Shield Society. Mr. Lawrence Shortman sought and received permission from the Kiowa and Southern Cheyenne to sanction the Cherokee Red Star. Mr. Harold Durr was selected as the Headman of the Society.

At the Gathering of Nations 2004, Bill Two Horses, a long time Gourd Dancer and an enrolled member of the Delaware Tribe of Western Oklahoma, his son Walter, and Mr. Al Bellamy, were inducted into the Society. Mr. Lawrence Shortman and Mr. Harold Durr honored Two Horses by selecting him as the Headman of the East for the Society, granting him permission to sanction Cherokee Red Star Gourd Dance Societies in the East.
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